Beliefs with no evidence

[moneyman]

I may be wrong in assuming Gotti vs Sicillian riff actually took place.. but I feel like I hear that narrative thrown around all the time

[B.]

B, Pietro was the nephew of Nino & Giuseppe. But there was another Pietro who was indeed their brother, he died in 2007 in Staten Island.

Yep, I know -- I was referring to Nino and Giuseppe's brother who is also Joe Gambino's father-in-law. Point being that John Gambino and "Zu Pietro" Inzerillo were influential members of the Inzerillo clan who weren't killed even though they could have posed a threat to the Corleonesi, so it wasn't as simple as Greco/Riina demanding that Castellano kill Inzerillo relatives. Nino Inzerillo got himself killed by refusing his boss's orders and inserting himself in the conflict and his relatives like Gambino and Pietro Inzerillo survived because they didn't do that.

Lol...Profaci didn't mediate between the Grecos?

Like Johnny said, mediating is different from meddling. John Gambino for example did try to mediate during the Palermo war but he did it the proper way. He got the approval of his boss, met directly with Rosario Riccobono from the Corleonese faction and respectfully tried to negotiate to save lives, didn't try to instigate or escalate the conflict. Nino Inzerillo on the other hand was instigating.

A similar situation played out in Castellammare where Cesare Bonventre told other Castellammaresi in NYC not to involve themselves in the conflict going on in Sicily even though friends/relatives were under fire there. He likely understood that he wasn't allowed to meddle in that conflict and on a practical level likely saw no use.

[sdeitche]

Al Capone’ hideouts!

I grew up in the Midwest along the Mississippi and every town in W IL and E IA has bars, hotel, islands on the river that were supposedly one his hideouts.

Apparently the guy had no less than 23,000 hideouts.

He has dozens in Florida too, including three homes "he built for his mother" in St. Petersburg.

Busy man

[PolackTony]

Al Capone’ hideouts!

I grew up in the Midwest along the Mississippi and every town in W IL and E IA has bars, hotel, islands on the river that were supposedly one his hideouts.

Apparently the guy had no less than 23,000 hideouts.

He has dozens in Florida too, including three homes "he built for his mother" in St. Petersburg.

Busy man

One can also probably find some claim somewhere at sometime that practically every bootlegging ring from California to New England and from Ontario to Cuba was part of the “Capone gang”.

[stubbs]

Al Capone’ hideouts!

I grew up in the Midwest along the Mississippi and every town in W IL and E IA has bars, hotel, islands on the river that were supposedly one his hideouts.

Apparently the guy had no less than 23,000 hideouts.

He has dozens in Florida too, including three homes "he built for his mother" in St. Petersburg.

Busy man

One can also probably find some claim somewhere at sometime that practically every bootlegging ring from California to New England and from Ontario to Cuba was part of the “Capone gang”.

In addition to Capone's hideouts, there's various stories of Capone's men arriving in New Orleans, Galveston, etc. and being greeted at the train station by local gangsters, having their fingers broken, and being sent back home empty handed.

Obviously nonsense as Chicago gangs would've likely imported booze from Canada instead of going all the way down towards the Mexican border or gulf coast.

[stubbs]

Belief with no evidence: There's probably several more smaller families that died out before the 1930s, like the Birmingham family, that we may never learn about.

My guess is there may have been a separate family in Galveston, Houston, or Bryan, Texas before the 1930s. Then, maybe the few remaining members merged with the Dallas family.

[Ivan]

Belief with no evidence: There's probably several more smaller families that died out before the 1930s, like the Birmingham family, that we may never learn about.

My guess is there may have been a separate family in Galveston, Houston, or Bryan, Texas before the 1930s. Then, maybe the few remaining members merged with the Dallas family.

Yeah, I speculate that there was one in Youngstown, Ohio 100+ years ago though I have zero real evidence for this. And not just "the Calabrian organization," I mean a home-grown Cosa Nostra family unique to that city.

[B.]

Belief with no evidence: There's probably several more smaller families that died out before the 1930s, like the Birmingham family, that we may never learn about.

My guess is there may have been a separate family in Galveston, Houston, or Bryan, Texas before the 1930s. Then, maybe the few remaining members merged with the Dallas family.

There is definitely basis for some of them and others that are more speculative. This thread went into it although there is more we could add to the discussion in the five years since then: viewtopic.php?t=6661

[cavita]

Belief with no evidence: There's probably several more smaller families that died out before the 1930s, like the Birmingham family, that we may never learn about.

My guess is there may have been a separate family in Galveston, Houston, or Bryan, Texas before the 1930s. Then, maybe the few remaining members merged with the Dallas family.

There is definitely basis for some of them and others that are more speculative. This thread went into it although there is more we could add to the discussion in the five years since then: viewtopic.php?t=6661

Yeah I think there were some more in South Central Illinois where the coal mining towns saw a heavy influx of Italians. I think these little clans absorbed into the larger Springfield, Illinois and St. Louis families

[JoelTurner]

This ties into what’s being said about small families, I believe that there were several families that were absorbed by Buffalo. Looking at some of the cities where they had a presence: Utica - Frankfort, Rochester, Auburn, Syracuse, Erie, Etc

These cities weren’t exactly close. For example, the distance between Utica & Buffalo (~200 Miles) is greater than the distance between NYC & Providence (~180 Miles)

Plus Valachi names Utica as a family

[CabriniGreen]

What part of it are you having issue with?

Castellano didn't kill John Gambino, Pietro Inzerillo (Nino and Giuseppe's brother), or any number of other Inzerillo clan members in and around the Gambino Family even though I'm sure Greco and Riina would have been happy to have them killed as well. He killed Nino Inzerillo because Nino defied his boss's order not to intervene in the Sicilian war. We know from Naimo that John Gambino in contrast did exactly what he was told to do and when he did try to help his relatives he followed protocol and did it the proper way. He also killed his own relative Nino Inzerillo when ordered because Inzerillo did the opposite of what he was told to do.

Castellano was immensely wealthy, had a Family of 200-300 members, and thousands of associates -- he was arguably more powerful than anyone in the Sicilian mafia -- it's not like Greco or Riina could force him to kill a captain of his own Family just because they were out to remove the Inzerillos from power in Palermo. Inzerillo was specifically killed because he defied his boss's orders and was meddling in a Sicilian mafia conflict. His actions made Castellano look bad and had the potential to entangle the Gambino Family in an international conflict so Castellano had him killed. It was mutually beneficial in that Castellano got rid of a rogue capodecina who wasn't listening to his boss and Greco/Riina got rid of a powerful Inzerillo relative.

Members of American Families aren't allowed to meddle in the affairs of Sicilian Families and vice versa. Nino Inzerillo didn't just defy Castellano, he was breaking a long-established rule designed to preserve the autonomy of the American and Sicilian branches of Cosa Nostra.

Maybe my last post on this..... It's not an issue I have, but at some point this probably needs to be updated with CONTEMPORARY information...... are we not allowed to speculate or ask? If anything... I don't understand the issue with my line of inquiry......

Like.......the Glen Cove thing should probably be added....right? They got the Scirrippas on there, but the Ursinos have come and gone, but Valente might be out soon? Are they still there? Were they replaced by another group? Many questions here.....

ext/dmzx/imageupload/files/ddc254c56abb ... 27e4c1.jpg

[B.]

I forgot about that map -- thanks for sharing it again. What year was it from?

I'm curious about the Philadelphia 'ndrangheta ties given there is a long history of Calabrians in the local Family, many of which were likely Camorristi / 'ndranghetisti originally and maintained close ties to Calabria into the 1970s. There is the old newspaper reference to Scarfo having cousins in the Siderno group as well. I doubt any current Philly members are tied to the 'ndrangheta (except in passing, at most) but I do wonder if an 'ndrangheta presence goes back to the older generations of Calabrian Philly members.

A lot more Boston Camorra ties than I realized too. The Springfield one isn't surprising as there seem to have been ongoing ties between the Genovese crew and Campania even a couple decades ago and a lot of immigrants going back and forth.

I must have overlooked Altoona having ties to the Bagheria Family, same with NJ having connections to Bagheria. That's intriguing. Western PA did have a lot of early ties to the Bagheria area so maybe the Altoona presence is tied to that.

Some of the references on there are substantial and long-term (DeCavalcantes/Ribera, LA+NY/Passo di Rigano/Torretta, Detroit/Terrasini, etc.) but I wonder how many of these connections are fairly fleeting or are represented by one guy. Like the NYC/Santa Maria di Gesu reference could be to Roberto Settineri who is a US-based Santa Maria member affiliated with the Gambinos. NYC/Villabate too -- there were strong historic ties to the Colombos that withered and seemingly died after Joe Profaci's era. Mandala did visit NYC, so is it referring to that visit alone or are there more substantial, ongoing connections between Villabate and NYC in modern times? The Napolis of the Gambino Family were from there and very close to the Villabate leadership but they are all dead now though some of the sons were at least associates who probably still have ties.

There are also other international connections we know of that aren't included on the map but again I'm not sure the exact year or what these particular references represent in full. Like the Sciacca Family definitely has a presence in the United States that deserves inclusion on the map and other Agrigento groups like Porto Empedocle and Castrofilippo might as well.

[B.]

This ties into what’s being said about small families, I believe that there were several families that were absorbed by Buffalo. Looking at some of the cities where they had a presence: Utica - Frankfort, Rochester, Auburn, Syracuse, Erie, Etc

These cities weren’t exactly close. For example, the distance between Utica & Buffalo (~200 Miles) is greater than the distance between NYC & Providence (~180 Miles)

Plus Valachi names Utica as a family

There is some evidence in this case.

I've posted quite a bit about Utica and strongly believe they were a Family, maybe even later than we might expect. For comparison, Tony Lima said Johnstown was still a Family very late in the timeline before being absorbed into Pittsburgh. Adding to Valachi's perception is that he personally met the Falcone brothers during his stay in Buffalo in 1930. One possibility is that Pietro Lima was boss and the Family was merged with Buffalo after his murder in 1934. There was also a valuable FBI source in Utica (can't remember if it was the Utica member source but might have been -- still not sure who that was) who referred to them as a Family; they weren't a Family at that time but it seems like they were still viewed within that framework and operated that way.

Rochester is a good bet as well though I've seen less info. They had the Western Sicilian population to support it plus there were many mafiosi who spent time or lived there even temporarily in the formative years of the US mafia. There was plenty of mafia activity there, too.

Syracuse is interesting as Sam Scro (father of Vincent, Magaddino's son-in-law) was a pivotal figure and point of contact for other national figures. Scro was definitely a "boss" type figure in the area but I don't know enough about Syracuse to gauge whether it could have supported a Family. Buffalo didn't have many members there later so it's possible it was a branch of Utica. Auburn was def important in the Agrigento network but again not sure there was enough to support a Family.

Adding to this is that there were quite possibly multiple Families in Buffalo itself as well. There was an FBI source who specifically said that along with a wiretap from Magaddino that seems to indicate it, Magaddino saying during the factionalism after DiCarlo Sr.'s death there were multiple "borgatas" and national leaders like Michele Merlo and Giuseppe Lonardo encouraged him to become "capo dei capi" (which is not a reference to the national position given it was not open and D'Aquila was firmly in that role). My guess is that there were multiple Buffalo Families (maybe a Castellammarese Family in NF and a Caltanissettese Family in Buffalo proper, plus wherever the Agrigento population fell in) and the discussion Magaddino is referring to could have been an attempt to consolidate them into one Family (which did happen in Philly) with Magaddino as the sole boss (hence "capo dei capi").

[PolackTony]

I forgot about that map -- thanks for sharing it again. What year was it from?

I'm curious about the Philadelphia 'ndrangheta ties given there is a long history of Calabrians in the local Family, many of which were likely Camorristi / 'ndranghetisti originally and maintained close ties to Calabria into the 1970s. There is the old newspaper reference to Scarfo having cousins in the Siderno group as well. I doubt any current Philly members are tied to the 'ndrangheta (except in passing, at most) but I do wonder if an 'ndrangheta presence goes back to the older generations of Calabrian Philly members.

A lot more Boston Camorra ties than I realized too. The Springfield one isn't surprising as there seem to have been ongoing ties between the Genovese crew and Campania even a couple decades ago and a lot of immigrants going back and forth.

I must have overlooked Altoona having ties to the Bagheria Family, same with NJ having connections to Bagheria. That's intriguing. Western PA did have a lot of early ties to the Bagheria area so maybe the Altoona presence is tied to that.

Some of the references on there are substantial and long-term (DeCavalcantes/Ribera, LA+NY/Passo di Rigano/Torretta, Detroit/Terrasini, etc.) but I wonder how many of these connections are fairly fleeting or are represented by one guy. Like the NYC/Santa Maria di Gesu reference could be to Roberto Settineri who is a US-based Santa Maria member affiliated with the Gambinos. NYC/Villabate too -- there were strong historic ties to the Colombos that withered and seemingly died after Joe Profaci's era. Mandala did visit NYC, so is it referring to that visit alone or are there more substantial, ongoing connections between Villabate and NYC in modern times? The Napolis of the Gambino Family were from there and very close to the Villabate leadership but they are all dead now though some of the sons were at least associates who probably still have ties.

There are also other international connections we know of that aren't included on the map but again I'm not sure the exact year or what these particular references represent in full. Like the Sciacca Family definitely has a presence in the United States that deserves inclusion on the map and other Agrigento groups like Porto Empedocle and Castrofilippo might as well.

From what I recall, it reflects Italian LE investigations from the 2000s, as some of the actual investigations that the map derives from were discussed in Francesco Forgione’s 2010 book “Mafia Export”.

ext/dmzx/imageupload/files/ddc254c56abb ... 27e4c1.jpg

I know that you’re a big fan of the Italian series “Gomorrah”, so you may already be aware that much of that series drew inspiration from actual events surrounding the Licciardi clan and the Alleanza di Secondigliano. These organizations were, of course, based in the northern suburbs of Napoli, an area near towns with a long Camorra history and strong immigration ties to cities like Chicago and Boston. Unsurprisingly, Italian LE had intel that affiliates of those organizations were at one time active in… Chicago and Boston (one of the things they were doing in Chicago, for example, was running clothing boutiques that served to move bootleg/smuggled clothing).

[cavita]

I forgot about that map -- thanks for sharing it again. What year was it from?

I'm curious about the Philadelphia 'ndrangheta ties given there is a long history of Calabrians in the local Family, many of which were likely Camorristi / 'ndranghetisti originally and maintained close ties to Calabria into the 1970s. There is the old newspaper reference to Scarfo having cousins in the Siderno group as well. I doubt any current Philly members are tied to the 'ndrangheta (except in passing, at most) but I do wonder if an 'ndrangheta presence goes back to the older generations of Calabrian Philly members.

A lot more Boston Camorra ties than I realized too. The Springfield one isn't surprising as there seem to have been ongoing ties between the Genovese crew and Campania even a couple decades ago and a lot of immigrants going back and forth.

I must have overlooked Altoona having ties to the Bagheria Family, same with NJ having connections to Bagheria. That's intriguing. Western PA did have a lot of early ties to the Bagheria area so maybe the Altoona presence is tied to that.

Some of the references on there are substantial and long-term (DeCavalcantes/Ribera, LA+NY/Passo di Rigano/Torretta, Detroit/Terrasini, etc.) but I wonder how many of these connections are fairly fleeting or are represented by one guy. Like the NYC/Santa Maria di Gesu reference could be to Roberto Settineri who is a US-based Santa Maria member affiliated with the Gambinos. NYC/Villabate too -- there were strong historic ties to the Colombos that withered and seemingly died after Joe Profaci's era. Mandala did visit NYC, so is it referring to that visit alone or are there more substantial, ongoing connections between Villabate and NYC in modern times? The Napolis of the Gambino Family were from there and very close to the Villabate leadership but they are all dead now though some of the sons were at least associates who probably still have ties.

There are also other international connections we know of that aren't included on the map but again I'm not sure the exact year or what these particular references represent in full. Like the Sciacca Family definitely has a presence in the United States that deserves inclusion on the map and other Agrigento groups like Porto Empedocle and Castrofilippo might as well.

From what I recall, it reflects Italian LE investigations from the 2000s, as some of the actual investigations that the map derives from were discussed in Francesco Forgione’s 2010 book “Mafia Export”.

ext/dmzx/imageupload/files/ddc254c56abb ... 27e4c1.jpg

I know that you’re a big fan of the Italian series “Gomorrah”, so you may already be aware that much of that series drew inspiration from actual events surrounding the Licciardi clan and the Alleanza di Secondigliano. These organizations were, of course, based in the northern suburbs of Napoli, an area near towns with a long Camorra history and strong immigration ties to cities like Chicago and Boston. Unsurprisingly, Italian LE had intel that affiliates of those organizations were at one time active in… Chicago and Boston (one of the things they were doing in Chicago, for example, was running clothing boutiques that served to move bootleg/smuggled clothing).

This was most likely the fencing operation in Chicago years ago that saw the arrest of Alphonse Mitria?