Beliefs with no evidence

[B.]

Obviously many of us are hard-nosed about evidence and evidence-based speculation but I'm curious what beliefs or hunches you have about the mob but you lack evidence supporting it. Doesn't matter how crazy it is and it could be about anything related to this subject, just lay it out. You're welcome to commit total heresy and nobody will be attacked in this thread, though discussion and respectful counterpoint are welcome.

For me it's that the mafia phenomenon as we know it originated in the western Sicilian interior, specifically the general border area where Palermo and Agrigento provinces meet (Trapani and Caltanissetta also run into this area). The only "evidence" is a 1950s map produced by the FBI using intel from Italian investigations marking locations relevant to the origin of the Sicilian mafia and though the parameters of "origin" might be broad and we don't know exactly what information was used, the region I'm referring to has a much greater concentration of markers than the rest of the island. This region also has a higher concentration of Families than just about anywhere else on the island and countless mafiosi came from this area, plus some early investigations in this part of Agrigento uncovered an organized mafia-like network spread throughout the area as early as the 1820s. The mafia was definitely in this area early on but in terms of actual evidence the mafia started here -- or anywhere -- I have nothing and it's just a hunch I've had for some years. This hunch could easily be wrong and the mafia could have started in Palermo citta or the comuni around it, or in prison, any other number of possibilities.

Your hunch could be ridiculous -- like Joe Bonanno was never actually made into Cosa Nostra -- but I'm interested in hearing it. Of course if it goes against other evidence you should have some basis for believing it.

[Cheech]

Good one B.

I don’t think Genovese killed Dom Cirillo son. I think was Vinny on the sneak.

Basis is Vinny did a few things on the sneak and wasnt always honest. I cant remember who but someone either testified or was caught on wiretap saying it was Vinny.

All those bronx guys are wild. In every family. Lotta people immediately talk Brooklyn but the Bronx lowkey was the wild west.

[B.]

Good one B.

I don’t think Genovese killed Dom Cirillo son. I think was Vinny on the sneak.

Basis is Vinny did a few things on the sneak and wasnt always honest. I cant remember who but someone either testified or was caught on wiretap saying it was Vinny.

All those bronx guys are wild. In every family. Lotta people immediately talk Brooklyn but the Bronx lowkey was the wild west.

A lot of modern mob murders have connected to the Bronx, especially the Bonannos there.

[PolackTony]

All those bronx guys are wild. In every family. Lotta people immediately talk Brooklyn but the Bronx lowkey was the wild west.

100%. Part of it is the East Bronx was largely populated by the people who fled East Harlem (essentially all of my neighbors, everyone I know here, goes back to Harlem, apart from the second wave immigrants direct from Italy). They arrived here already tough as nails and battle scarred lol. The other part is that it’s the Bronx — in general and apart from this specific subject, it’s been a rough boro for a long time and produced a lotta rough people.

[Ivan]

Your hunch could be ridiculous -- like Joe Bonanno was never actually made into Cosa Nostra -- but I'm interested in hearing it. Of course if it goes against other evidence you should have some basis for believing it.

You get an extra ten years supernaturally added to your lifespan by the devil if you perform that Satanic blood ritual induction ceremony. That's why so many live to be 85~95 instead of 75~85 like normal people.

As far as more serious beliefs go, I personally think that Jimmy Hoffa's murder was done entirely by the Detroit family and people like Sally Bugs and the Andrettas were not present. Only involvement of other families was the use of the name of Tony Pro as one of the guys Hoffa was supposed to meet at the fake meeting they set him up with, and that the hit might have had to get past the Commission. Other than that, entirely Detroit.

[Raven]

I believe Carlo Gambino was not nearly as feared or held up on a pedastal as people make him out to be. I also belief if things had gone a slightly different way, which I think they could have he wouldn’t have been boss.

[Coloboy]

I believe that relationships/contact between LCN and U.S intelligence services between the end of WW2 and the 1970's or so were a lot tighter than many know. There is a shadowy network there that intersects crime, business, the military industrial complex, and foreign policy. They could all "scratch each other's backs" essentially.

[Ivan]

I believe Carlo Gambino was not nearly as feared or held up on a pedastal as people make him out to be.

Joe Bonanno certainly wasn't impressed with him at least, for whatever that's worth.

[SonnyBlackstein]

The size of the outfit.
Chicago is fucking huge. In 1960 it was about 3.5m. 500k italian. 3rd largest after NYC and Philly. I just can't believe there would only have been ONLY 50 made guys. I know Roemer has been debunked blah blah but as Louie Ck said "of course there weren't 200 made guy! Of course! of course! But mayyybe....."

[SonnyBlackstein]

Good thread B

[jmack]

I know it’s been speculated and I fully agree that John Stanfa was in on the Bruno hit. The conspirators coming to his room after and speaking in Italian is suspect. Sure, they could have said “you aren’t in danger and have nothing to worry about,” but I doubt it. I can’t prove it but I’d wager a lot of money he was in on it.

Also, the Gambino’s thought that Scarfo thought he was in on it. Otherwise, why ask for the pass?

[Coloboy]

The size of the outfit.
Chicago is fucking huge. In 1960 it was about 3.5m. 500k italian. 3rd largest after NYC and Philly. I just can't believe there would only have been ONLY 50 made guys. I know Roemer has been debunked blah blah but as Louie Ck said "of course there weren't 200 made guy! Of course! of course! But mayyybe....."

I grew up in chicago, and had several family and social acquaintances who had some type of dealing with the Outfit in one way or the other. I think the distinction here is "made" members. At it's peak, the Outfit was a very large network of criminals and hangers on. As you said, Chicago has a huge Italian American population. Between say the 1940's-1980's, if you grew up in the city you likely knew someone who was involved or at the very least had an Outfit story of some kind. That is all to say that it was certainly large, wide-reaching, and had a crucial impact on the social fabric of the city.

With that said, there are lots of primary sources to indicate that the actual made, inducted, membership was small and selective for a city of that size. The outfit network was massive, but the actual made member LCN core that ultimately made the final decisions and directed things was fairly small, and very hard to "break into" so to speak. Hence the literally ONE made member that has testified publicly in the history of the Outfit.

[PolackTony]

As far as more serious beliefs go, I personally think that Jimmy Hoffa's murder was done entirely by the Detroit family and people like Sally Bugs and the Andrettas were not present. Only involvement of other families was the use of the name of Tony Pro as one of the guys Hoffa was supposed to meet at the fake meeting they set him up with, and that the hit might have had to get past the Commission. Other than that, entirely Detroit.

+1. I suspect as well that Detroit did it all or mostly by themselves and disposed of the body in one of many local, mobbed-up businesses (i.e., funeral homes etc., that they controlled). While they presumably would have had to clear it first with, at least, the Genovese and Chicago, I don't see any reason to really conclude that the Genovese played any direct role in it. I also think that the Hoffa thing is a played out and overdone topic (not in terms of LCN control and influence in the IBT, as that's a major story, but the specific how/when etc. of Hoffa's murder), but that's just an opinion rather than a belief about events.

[Proletarian187]

I refuse to believe Bobby Manna will ever die.

[Ivan]

I also think that the Hoffa thing is a played out and overdone topic (not in terms of LCN control and influence in the IBT, as that's a major story, but the specific how/when etc. of Hoffa's murder), but that's just an opinion rather than a belief about events.

Yeah the way people come up with all sorts of convoluted speculative shit is pretty blah in my opinion, no argument here. Ockham's Razor works beautifully with the specifics of the Hoffa hit IMHO.

Detroit whacked him and got rid of the body, there's no need to go on about how perhaps the Andretta brothers were flown across the country to help dispose of it or whatever.