General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[B.]

There was that 60s wiretap of Tommy Eboli and Miranda, where they stated that Chicago had only like 50 made guys.

Do you have a link to that or know where I can find it?

This would fit my belief that the Chicago family was more of a mid-sized family by US membership standards, but like the traditional mafia each member was essentially a leader in his own right, contributing to some of the confusion over structure given that made membership in Chicago would mean overseeing significant criminal operations. In other US families of comparable size, membership still meant leadership but more in terms of organizational representation and "honor" than control over operations and a vast network of criminal associates like Chicago.

The Jewish informant DeRose, who was knowledgeable on organizational matters, felt the family had 150 members, which sounds reasonable to me, too, but Eboli and Miranda's word would go much farther even if it was a general estimate.

As we learn more, it appears the family membership sizes didn't drop off quite as sharply as we once thought they did, exceptions aside. Some US families like St. Louis, Dallas, Tampa, and NO simply didn't induct enough members over many decades to preserve a stable membership (staying close to the Sicilian village model they came from) but I have a sense that cities like Chicago and Detroit preserved mid-sized membership numbers, though they used membership to different ends.

[Snakes]

Chiaramonti was extorting the Daddinos. Rudy Fratto complained to the big bosses. Wasnt there something about Carlisi hated the Clown and Clown was shelved until Carlisi died?

If you remember where you saw this, please update.

Fosco is the source for both, I believe. Although I think he mentioned Carlisi as wanting to kill Lombardo as opposed to hating him but it may also be mentioned elsewhere.

[Villain]

Villian others have disscussed this, but my take on that period is the following. Obviously I am filling in large gaps of knowledge here....

IMO Difronzo was "chariman of the board" until the early 2010's at least until his health started going downhill. Remember, we have him meeting with at the very least the EP guys in 2009 as verified by Chuck Goudie.

Post family secrets (2005-2006), I think Difronzo and whoever else you consider top leadership (The builder and Tornabene?), approved Sarnos crew to take over day to day management of the organization from the Marcello/Zizzo faction. This did not go over well with Zizzo, and thus he disappears.

I agree and i also think that by the late 90s DiFronzo took Accardos role as top boss. Cerone died in 96, Aiuppa died in 97, followed by Carlisi that same year. No matter if they were in prison since some of these guys were allegedly still looked upon as senior bosses.

So in 97/98 DiFronzo stepped down as boss and gave the spot to the Chinatown/Cicero faction aka Monteleone/Sarno group, while he took Accardos former spot. Later Sarno was allegedly still kicking up to No Nose right?

The question is on why DIFronzo stepped down as boss? First, all of the old bosses were dead or plane words there was a free spot, and I also believe there were some tensions between the EP/MP and the Chinatown/Cicero crews at the time, and the only way to make peace was to give Monteleone and his faction an inmportant position.

But it seems that during the following decade some MP members werent satisfied by the whole deal and so they ended up dead, while the EP crew played it smart by getting involved more in legitimate enterprises thus leaving the rest of the street crews to slowly fall into the hands of the FBI. Although I also believe that the EP crew never really relinquished all of their street connections, mainly because through their constant close connection to the Grand Av crew. Dont forget that during those days the Cicero/Chinatown group were one faction, and the EP/GRand were another while the old Cicero/MP aka Aiuppa/Carlisi/Tornabene/Marcello crew was getting out of the picture

[SolarSolano]

Grand and EP were always connected but im also confused about Zizzo...their mutual interests in MP maybe?

I think it had to do with Zizzo being the first boss back from Carlisi's old crew. Carlisi and DiFRonzo were partners - I think Carlisi's crew and Infelice's crew were competing and when Carlisi'd people went away, Infelice's crew via Sarno etc. moved in under DiFRonzo's blessing. I think DiFronzo may have been trying to keep peace between warring Cicero crews.

Wonder if that surveillance was prior to Chiaramonte hit or afterwards?

Thanks. Btw Sarno's crew also entered MP right?

I think Sarno's crew essentially moved in and took everything. Remember when Marcello (who was Carlisi's underboss) was on wiretap with his brother asking about Sarno and Cataudella who he called "Mutt and Jeff." What I don't understand is whether Sarno was essentially organizing a coup against Marcello and the old guard prior to Family Secrets by taking out his main guys like Zizzo and Chiaramonte, or whether this was being done with Marcello's permission and his guys simply weren't backing down. I tend to wonder if Inenendino and DeLaurentis were somewhat pulling the strings here and where DiFronzo stood in this.

Thanks again.

It seems that the Buccieri-Torello-LaPietra-Ferriola-Infelice-Monteleone-Sarno faction never really stopped spreading their ops in other crews' territories since the late 1960s, and in the end or after 40 years they probably fulfilled their plan.

Spot on. They are currently the dominant crew and likely have been aside from a few short years in the 90s when Carlisi was away.

[SolarSolano]

Villain I also agree with your assessment of the Outfit - I tend to think DiFronzo assumed the Accardo/Ricca role and gave his crew to Andriacchi. I think John and his brothers were wealthy enough and EP essentially split in half at that point with a few of DiFronzo's guys essentially going legitimate, while others followed Andriacchi who was essentially mentoring Vena and the Grand Ave crew through the 90s. I think other guys in EP became independent or gravitated to Cicero - like Fratto.

[PolackTony]

Villain I also agree with your assessment of the Outfit - I tend to think DiFronzo assumed the Accardo/Ricca role and gave his crew to Andriacchi. I think John and his brothers were wealthy enough and EP essentially split in half at that point with a few of DiFronzo's guys essentially going legitimate, while others followed Andriacchi who was essentially mentoring Vena and the Grand Ave crew through the 90s. I think other guys in EP became independent or gravitated to Cicero - like Fratto.

And then there is the question also of D’Amico, who seems to me to possibly have been something of a liaison to the Italian elements connected to the Outfit. I strongly suspect that at least at certain times Marco was involved in bankrolling drug operations also.

[Snakes]

Villain I also agree with your assessment of the Outfit - I tend to think DiFronzo assumed the Accardo/Ricca role and gave his crew to Andriacchi. I think John and his brothers were wealthy enough and EP essentially split in half at that point with a few of DiFronzo's guys essentially going legitimate, while others followed Andriacchi who was essentially mentoring Vena and the Grand Ave crew through the 90s. I think other guys in EP became independent or gravitated to Cicero - like Fratto.

And then there is the question also of D’Amico, who seems to me to possibly have also between something of a liaison to the Italian elements connected to the Outfit. I strongly suspect that at least at certain times Marco was involved in bankrolling drug operations also.

One of his wire rooms got busted and they found coke. I'm not sure if it was something his guys were doing on the side or if he gave the okay (or even bankrolled it) but the connection was there.

[PolackTony]

Villain I also agree with your assessment of the Outfit - I tend to think DiFronzo assumed the Accardo/Ricca role and gave his crew to Andriacchi. I think John and his brothers were wealthy enough and EP essentially split in half at that point with a few of DiFronzo's guys essentially going legitimate, while others followed Andriacchi who was essentially mentoring Vena and the Grand Ave crew through the 90s. I think other guys in EP became independent or gravitated to Cicero - like Fratto.

And then there is the question also of D’Amico, who seems to me to possibly have also between something of a liaison to the Italian elements connected to the Outfit. I strongly suspect that at least at certain times Marco was involved in bankrolling drug operations also.

One of his wire rooms got busted and they found coke. I'm not sure if it was something his guys were doing on the side or if he gave the okay (or even bankrolled it) but the connection was there.

Thanks. D’Amico came up as well a few times in the “zip” thread. Cavita I believe also linked him to Rockford. While some of this was 80s era stuff (when both Rockford and Chicago seem to have had notable connections to Italian OC traffickers), some of these Italian guys (Pugliesi in particular) were still floating around Chicago, and connected to EP, in the 90s and 2000s. Worth noting that Marco’s mother was from Puglia and his wife was from Italy, so he might make sense as a contact person for the Italians.

[SolarSolano]

D'Amico spoke Italian fluently. I actually used to play cards with Mike Fusco who served time with Marco. Fusco's cousin Richard Lantini testified against them both. When Fusco got out of prison, he retired with plenty of money in Sarasota, Florida. I always saw that as the Outfit rewarding a guy for keeping his mouth shut.

[Villain]

Villain I also agree with your assessment of the Outfit - I tend to think DiFronzo assumed the Accardo/Ricca role and gave his crew to Andriacchi. I think John and his brothers were wealthy enough and EP essentially split in half at that point with a few of DiFronzo's guys essentially going legitimate, while others followed Andriacchi who was essentially mentoring Vena and the Grand Ave crew through the 90s. I think other guys in EP became independent or gravitated to Cicero - like Fratto.

To be honest, for me personally the only mysterious boss to this day is Tornabene. First of all he allegedly assisted Aiuppa over a making ceremony during a time when there were already other guys above him in his own crew such as Ortenzi, Carlisi and Marcello....and second, he allegedly inherited Monteleones throne and allegedly kept the spot warm for Marcello, during a time when other crews were already on the top admin.

Another question is on whether Tornabene was previously Monteleones underboss? Also, according to the tradition, when Marcello took over it is possible that Tornabene took the senior advisor position right? And the same situation continued after Marcellos imprisonment or until Tornabenes death in 2009.

My personal opinion is that Tornabene is the best proof that we still dont know a lot of stuff regarding the Outfit.

[cavita]

Villain I also agree with your assessment of the Outfit - I tend to think DiFronzo assumed the Accardo/Ricca role and gave his crew to Andriacchi. I think John and his brothers were wealthy enough and EP essentially split in half at that point with a few of DiFronzo's guys essentially going legitimate, while others followed Andriacchi who was essentially mentoring Vena and the Grand Ave crew through the 90s. I think other guys in EP became independent or gravitated to Cicero - like Fratto.

To be honest, for me personally the only mysterious boss to this day is Tornabene. First of all he allegedly assisted Aiuppa over a making ceremony during a time when there were already other guys above him in his own crew such as Ortenzi, Carlisi and Marcello....and second, he allegedly inherited Monteleones throne and allegedly kept the spot warm for Marcello, during a time when other crews were already on the top admin.

Another question is on whether Tornabene was previously Monteleones underboss? Also, according to the tradition, when Marcello took over it is possible that Tornabene took the senior advisor position right? And the same situation continued after Marcellos imprisonment or until Tornabenes death in 2009.

My personal opinion is that Tornabene is the best proof that we still dont know a lot of stuff regarding the Outfit.

Anyone attempt to request Tornabene's FBI file? Might be worth a look-see.

[Villain]

Villain I also agree with your assessment of the Outfit - I tend to think DiFronzo assumed the Accardo/Ricca role and gave his crew to Andriacchi. I think John and his brothers were wealthy enough and EP essentially split in half at that point with a few of DiFronzo's guys essentially going legitimate, while others followed Andriacchi who was essentially mentoring Vena and the Grand Ave crew through the 90s. I think other guys in EP became independent or gravitated to Cicero - like Fratto.

To be honest, for me personally the only mysterious boss to this day is Tornabene. First of all he allegedly assisted Aiuppa over a making ceremony during a time when there were already other guys above him in his own crew such as Ortenzi, Carlisi and Marcello....and second, he allegedly inherited Monteleones throne and allegedly kept the spot warm for Marcello, during a time when other crews were already on the top admin.

Another question is on whether Tornabene was previously Monteleones underboss? Also, according to the tradition, when Marcello took over it is possible that Tornabene took the senior advisor position right? And the same situation continued after Marcellos imprisonment or until Tornabenes death in 2009.

My personal opinion is that Tornabene is the best proof that we still dont know a lot of stuff regarding the Outfit.

Anyone attempt to request Tornabene's FBI file? Might be worth a look-see.

Not me. To be honest i quit ordering fbi files regarding the old guys (until new ones are released) since all i receive are redacted pages and more than 90% of the available info can already be found on the internet.

[Snakes]

Tornabene ran the west side while Monteleone was boss.

[Villain]

Tornabene ran the west side while Monteleone was boss.

Thats right but dont forget that other sources stated that Tornabene also had interests around the South Side, and probably Cicero too, aka the Aiuppa crew

[Snakes]

Tornabene ran the west side while Monteleone was boss.

Thats right but dont forget that other sources stated that Tornabene also had interests around the South Side, and probably Cicero too, aka the Aiuppa crew

Cicero and Melrose Park are included, if I remember right. Spano was noted as meeting with him in some files, although I'm not sure in what capacity. I'd have to go back and look, though.