Etna wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:11 pm
Just from the early history of the NO mafia, I think the organization was much larger in the 19th century up to Silver Dollar Sam's reign.
I've wondered about this too. The entire history has been scrubbed and lost so I don't think we'll ever know. Before NY, Nola was the Sicilian Epicenter up until the 1890's, for all we know there might have been several groups there like we seen with NY that faded or merged before their contemporary history started being documented. We'll never know. Had the South not lost the war, NY never would have replaced Nola as America's premier city and the concentration might have stayed centered around NO.
As you look from Rafaelle Agnello's time, to the Provenzano - Matranga war, the macheroni wars and then the guys spread out with connections.
I often wondered if the lynching caused a number of guys to scatter. Even when we discuss a top boss in the USA. I often wonder if NOLA held the first top boss before or upon Morello's arrival. He did after all live down there too.
We don't know but I'd say its a strong possibility. From 1850 to 1870 I'd estimate 90% of the Sicilian population was there. 1872 is when the dam broke and by 1880 the mafia has spread to St Louis, Birmingham, San Francisco, rural PA and NYC. By 1902 NYC became the hub due immigration numbers.
There's kinda been an oversimplication of Italian history in New Orleans, there was discrimination but it was a grey area. Historians today like to paint Sicilians as being at the level blacks were and that they found commonality with each other, there's examples of that but there also existed the White Society, a predominantly Italian KKK group. By the time of the Hennessey lynchings, Italians had already been there for four decades and while biases existed, they wouldn't have been lynched just for being Italian.
Regarding people leaving after that, I believe the Monasteros left for Pittsburgh and their descents were boss for a year or two.
Excellent points, Chris! Two follow ups.
1. Do we know any Camorra groups operating there like there was in NYC?
2. Is there a general oreer in the other families (St. Louis, Birmingham, San Francisco, PA and NYC forming or was it generally at the same time? With NYC I'd imaging immigration through there was a huge factor.
1 No evidence there was but "if a free falls in the woods" type of thing.
2 Yes and no. Sicilians imported the mafia so we can look at a city where immigration began in say 1884 and a mafia case or something occured in 1898, we can say the Family 'probably' formed between 1884 and 1898. Immigration was a factor and designed the setup, the mafia just followed chain migration.
Etna wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:11 pm
Just from the early history of the NO mafia, I think the organization was much larger in the 19th century up to Silver Dollar Sam's reign.
I've wondered about this too. The entire history has been scrubbed and lost so I don't think we'll ever know. Before NY, Nola was the Sicilian Epicenter up until the 1890's, for all we know there might have been several groups there like we seen with NY that faded or merged before their contemporary history started being documented. We'll never know. Had the South not lost the war, NY never would have replaced Nola as America's premier city and the concentration might have stayed centered around NO.
As you look from Rafaelle Agnello's time, to the Provenzano - Matranga war, the macheroni wars and then the guys spread out with connections.
I often wondered if the lynching caused a number of guys to scatter. Even when we discuss a top boss in the USA. I often wonder if NOLA held the first top boss before or upon Morello's arrival. He did after all live down there too.
We don't know but I'd say its a strong possibility. From 1850 to 1870 I'd estimate 90% of the Sicilian population was there. 1872 is when the dam broke and by 1880 the mafia has spread to St Louis, Birmingham, San Francisco, rural PA and NYC. By 1902 NYC became the hub due immigration numbers.
There's kinda been an oversimplication of Italian history in New Orleans, there was discrimination but it was a grey area. Historians today like to paint Sicilians as being at the level blacks were and that they found commonality with each other, there's examples of that but there also existed the White Society, a predominantly Italian KKK group. By the time of the Hennessey lynchings, Italians had already been there for four decades and while biases existed, they wouldn't have been lynched just for being Italian.
Regarding people leaving after that, I believe the Monasteros left for Pittsburgh and their descents were boss for a year or two.
Giuseppe Imburgio aka Joe Bulger had family members killed in the lynching as a young child and apparently they spirited him away to Chicago to get him out of there.
There are other examples of Oufit connections to Louisiana Sicilians, but not directly related to the lynching so far as I know. Given that a good number of Louisiana Sicilians came up to Chicago (and I'd imagine Rockford and Milwaukee as well), I wouldn't be surprised if the lynching was one component of a set of push/pull factors (the massive industrialization of the North being primary of course) leading to the dispersal of Sicilians out of Louisiana.
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
PolackTony wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:30 pm
Giuseppe Imburgio aka Joe Bulger had family members killed in the lynching as a young child and apparently they spirited him away to Chicago to get him out of there.
There are other examples of Oufit connections to Louisiana Sicilians, but not directly related to the lynching so far as I know. Given that a good number of Louisiana Sicilians came up to Chicago (and I'd imagine Rockford and Milwaukee as well), I wouldn't be surprised if the lynching was one component of a set of push/pull factors (the massive industrialization of the North being primary of course) leading to the dispersal of Sicilians out of Louisiana.
What sources say Bulger had family members killed in the 1891 lynching?
PolackTony wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:30 pm
Giuseppe Imburgio aka Joe Bulger had family members killed in the lynching as a young child and apparently they spirited him away to Chicago to get him out of there.
There are other examples of Oufit connections to Louisiana Sicilians, but not directly related to the lynching so far as I know. Given that a good number of Louisiana Sicilians came up to Chicago (and I'd imagine Rockford and Milwaukee as well), I wouldn't be surprised if the lynching was one component of a set of push/pull factors (the massive industrialization of the North being primary of course) leading to the dispersal of Sicilians out of Louisiana.
What sources say Bulger had family members killed in the 1891 lynching?
This was a claim made by Gus Russo. I don't have the book handy at the moment, and thus can't verify and also check his sources.
Upon reflection, I can see why you're asking though. Imburgio was born 1899 and the lynching of course was 1891. Russo IIRC claimed that his father was among those killed, but that fits neither the chronology nor the list of lynching victims. While I suppose it's possible that another of Imburgio's relatives was among the victims, but I haven't tried looking into his genealogy myself.
Thanks for the query Antilliar. I shared this under the assumption that Russo is a reliable historian, and while I'd like to be charitable to him this seems like a glaring error. While tangential to this thread, I'd like to see your opinions on Russo's work (I've only read his Outfit book, not the Korshak one).
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
Antiliar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:50 am
Right off the bat I had problems with the lack of sourcing in Russo's books.
Enough said. I haven't read the book in while, but just pulled up an electronic copy of the relevant passage. Of course Russo makes the claim without any source citation. In the future I won't be sharing Russo's claims without corroboration from other sources so as not to propagate errors.
I plan to look into it myself and see if I can find any connections between Imburgio and any of the lynching victims. If I find anything I'll report back.
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
Pittsburgh boss Stefano Monastero's father was one of the mafiosi killed in the 1891 lynching. There might be a Chicago connection, as Monastero's underboss was a Landolino and Chicago Heights boss Phil Piazza was married to a Landolino. They were all from Caccamo and both the Pittsburgh and CH administrations were murdered in the span of a few years. There was also a Sam Monastero killed in Chicago in 1930 though I don't know if he was from Caccamo or related to the others.
I would be shocked if Gus Russo knew any of the above and confused it for Imburgio having a direct NO lynching tie, just pointing out a potential indirect connection between Chicago and the NO lynching.
Joseph Imburgio was born in New Orleans and his parents were from Palermo. His mother's maiden name was Scarmia and his grandmothers' maiden names were Caravella and Batte. I don't think any of the lynching victims had those last names, so if he had a relative who was killed it either had to be an uncle married to one of his blood aunts, or an older cousin of some kind. Again, I would be surprised if Russo made a more distant connection on his own unless he found a source who clearly stated Imburgio had a relative in the lynching.
B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:03 pm
His sons were in regular contact with the Dallas family and the Pellegrinos were involved in a joint gambling operation in Dallas in the 1950s/60s.
A lot more Genovese influence in the south than you might expect.
Didn't know that about the gambling operation. Thanks for sharing!
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
