New Orleans.

[vmw100475]

This may be a little off topic but I have seen a lot of information on the relative small size of the New Orleans family, even during the 1960s when the mafia was arguably at the peak of its power...I bring this up because Carlos Marcello (and Santo Trafficante) always seem to be portrayed as puppetmaster type figures whose power was on a national scale such that they were even capble of pulling off the assassination of a president (which based on what I've read, I don't believe they personally had a role in)....however, the organizations they controlled seem to be fairly small.....almost glorified crews....why was it assumed that they had the power to pull off JFK's assassination? I understand why they were suspected of being involved based on things Marcello/Trafficante allegedly said or were recording saying, as well as their ties to some of the characters who were also suspected of being involved (Oswald, Guy Bannister, Anti-Castro Cubans, etc), but again, why were they assumed to have been powerful enough to pull this off when, if you look at the size of their organizations at the time, it does not look like they could have been that powerful? I could better reconcile the theory the mafia killed Kennedy if one of bosses of NY or Chicago who were suspected of the JFK assassination, based on the size of those organizations......I guess where I am going with this is how powerful was Marcello (or Trafficante) in reality? I have no doubt they had a ton of political pull and had corrupted numerous politicans, judges, etc., which could give them power, or atleast a form of it, but when it is all said and done, the mob got its power in large part from being able to kill who it had to when required to do so, and at the end of the day, this requires manpower like NY and Chicago had. Was Marcello's power greatly overestimated?

[Wiseguy]

This may be a little off topic but I have seen a lot of information on the relative small size of the New Orleans family, even during the 1960s when the mafia was arguably at the peak of its power...I bring this up because Carlos Marcello (and Santo Trafficante) always seem to be portrayed as puppetmaster type figures whose power was on a national scale such that they were even capble of pulling off the assassination of a president (which based on what I've read, I don't believe they personally had a role in)....however, the organizations they controlled seem to be fairly small.....almost glorified crews....why was it assumed that they had the power to pull off JFK's assassination? I understand why they were suspected of being involved based on things Marcello/Trafficante allegedly said or were recording saying, as well as their ties to some of the characters who were also suspected of being involved (Oswald, Guy Bannister, Anti-Castro Cubans, etc), but again, why were they assumed to have been powerful enough to pull this off when, if you look at the size of their organizations at the time, it does not look like they could have been that powerful? I could better reconcile the theory the mafia killed Kennedy if one of bosses of NY or Chicago who were suspected of the JFK assassination, based on the size of those organizations......I guess where I am going with this is how powerful was Marcello (or Trafficante) in reality? I have no doubt they had a ton of political pull and had corrupted numerous politicans, judges, etc., which could give them power, or atleast a form of it, but when it is all said and done, the mob got its power in large part from being able to kill who it had to when required to do so, and at the end of the day, this requires manpower like NY and Chicago had. Was Marcello's power greatly overestimated?

I think Marcello and Trafficante benefited from more the more blatant institutionalized corruption of the day, as well as didn't seem to have any significant rivals in the areas they controlled. Marcello's clout probably came more from his personal connections to local officials and other mob bosses, as well as his extensive legitimate holdings, than his relatively small crime family. Likewise, Trafficante had the same personal connections as well as interests in Cuba casinos before Castro. Size/manpower of an organization certainly is a major factor in terms of power but there would be a lot of things that would prevent them from being involved in the Kennedy assassination before the small size of their organizations.

[Angelo Santino]

This may be a little off topic but I have seen a lot of information on the relative small size of the New Orleans family, even during the 1960s when the mafia was arguably at the peak of its power...I bring this up because Carlos Marcello (and Santo Trafficante) always seem to be portrayed as puppetmaster type figures whose power was on a national scale such that they were even capble of pulling off the assassination of a president (which based on what I've read, I don't believe they personally had a role in)....however, the organizations they controlled seem to be fairly small.....almost glorified crews....why was it assumed that they had the power to pull off JFK's assassination? I understand why they were suspected of being involved based on things Marcello/Trafficante allegedly said or were recording saying, as well as their ties to some of the characters who were also suspected of being involved (Oswald, Guy Bannister, Anti-Castro Cubans, etc), but again, why were they assumed to have been powerful enough to pull this off when, if you look at the size of their organizations at the time, it does not look like they could have been that powerful? I could better reconcile the theory the mafia killed Kennedy if one of bosses of NY or Chicago who were suspected of the JFK assassination, based on the size of those organizations......I guess where I am going with this is how powerful was Marcello (or Trafficante) in reality? I have no doubt they had a ton of political pull and had corrupted numerous politicans, judges, etc., which could give them power, or atleast a form of it, but when it is all said and done, the mob got its power in large part from being able to kill who it had to when required to do so, and at the end of the day, this requires manpower like NY and Chicago had. Was Marcello's power greatly overestimated?

I think Marcello and Trafficante benefited from more the more blatant institutionalized corruption of the day, as well as didn't seem to have any significant rivals in the areas they controlled. Marcello's clout probably came more from his personal connections to local officials and other mob bosses, as well as his extensive legitimate holdings, than his relatively small crime family. Likewise, Trafficante had the same personal connections as well as interests in Cuba casinos before Castro. Size/manpower of an organization certainly is a major factor in terms of power but there would be a lot of things that would prevent them from being involved in the Kennedy assassination before the small size of their organizations.

Agreed. Good observation. They also seemed to be independently wealthy without relying on the org under them. I kinda wonder if they weren't receiving Sopranos-esque weekly kickups.

[vmw100475]

Interesting insights....And again, I don't believe that they were involved in the JFK assassination, even before you consider the small size of their organizations....and then when you consider the small size of their organizations, I think it makes it even less likely they were.....yet the media at the time (and even today) seems to portray then as very powerful.....their portrayal in media, books, etc., is reminicient of Murder Inc., which did not really exist, but was more a more just a creation of the media. Anyway, interesting insights; thanks

[sdeitche]

This may be a little off topic but I have seen a lot of information on the relative small size of the New Orleans family, even during the 1960s when the mafia was arguably at the peak of its power...I bring this up because Carlos Marcello (and Santo Trafficante) always seem to be portrayed as puppetmaster type figures whose power was on a national scale such that they were even capble of pulling off the assassination of a president (which based on what I've read, I don't believe they personally had a role in)....however, the organizations they controlled seem to be fairly small.....almost glorified crews....why was it assumed that they had the power to pull off JFK's assassination? I understand why they were suspected of being involved based on things Marcello/Trafficante allegedly said or were recording saying, as well as their ties to some of the characters who were also suspected of being involved (Oswald, Guy Bannister, Anti-Castro Cubans, etc), but again, why were they assumed to have been powerful enough to pull this off when, if you look at the size of their organizations at the time, it does not look like they could have been that powerful? I could better reconcile the theory the mafia killed Kennedy if one of bosses of NY or Chicago who were suspected of the JFK assassination, based on the size of those organizations......I guess where I am going with this is how powerful was Marcello (or Trafficante) in reality? I have no doubt they had a ton of political pull and had corrupted numerous politicans, judges, etc., which could give them power, or atleast a form of it, but when it is all said and done, the mob got its power in large part from being able to kill who it had to when required to do so, and at the end of the day, this requires manpower like NY and Chicago had. Was Marcello's power greatly overestimated?

The Tampa family was not a glorified crew. It was larger than families in other small cities, at their peak.

IMO, Trafficante's disproportionate power derived a lot from his involvement in Cuba, international drug trafficking, and his political clout in Florida. You dont need a family of 500 if you have significant exposure in key financial sectors. He never spent a night in an American prison. Plus, as Wiseguy said, there wasn't any competition.

For me, the involvement of Trafficatne with key anti-Castro Cuban operatives and the CIA, in the early 60s is far more interesting than who killed Kennedy. He was at the epicenter of West Hemisphere geopolitics for a period of time. Not many other mob bosses can make that claim.

[Angelo Santino]

Maybe size does not always equate to power. Having large numbers is beneficial but there's more to it than sheer manpower. If NO or Tampa or LA or CL wanted, they had the resources to induct 100 members each, they didn't. One can conclude they just thought it was going to last forever and didn't feel the need (probably part of it) but maybe rampant recruitment isn't always a cornerstone, especially outside of the east coast where there's less competition? If I want to get made in NY and one Family won't there's 4 ours to choose from and if I'm good at generating money someone may want to swoop me up before another group does, in which case maybe I face slightly less scrutiny compared to if I was in Detroit or Cleveland where they're the only game in town and I have to pretty much wait decades.

[Etna]

Just from the early history of the NO mafia, I think the organization was much larger in the 19th century up to Silver Dollar Sam's reign.

[Wiseguy]

Maybe size does not always equate to power. Having large numbers is beneficial but there's more to it than sheer manpower. If NO or Tampa or LA or CL wanted, they had the resources to induct 100 members each, they didn't. One can conclude they just thought it was going to last forever and didn't feel the need (probably part of it) but maybe rampant recruitment isn't always a cornerstone, especially outside of the east coast where there's less competition? If I want to get made in NY and one Family won't there's 4 ours to choose from and if I'm good at generating money someone may want to swoop me up before another group does, in which case maybe I face slightly less scrutiny compared to if I was in Detroit or Cleveland where they're the only game in town and I have to pretty much wait decades.

Size is one of the most important factors in power, though certainly not the only one. A family of 200 is simply going to have more influence and reach than a family of 20. To say nothing of staving off attrition for much longer.

[Pete]

Maybe size does not always equate to power. Having large numbers is beneficial but there's more to it than sheer manpower. If NO or Tampa or LA or CL wanted, they had the resources to induct 100 members each, they didn't. One can conclude they just thought it was going to last forever and didn't feel the need (probably part of it) but maybe rampant recruitment isn't always a cornerstone, especially outside of the east coast where there's less competition? If I want to get made in NY and one Family won't there's 4 ours to choose from and if I'm good at generating money someone may want to swoop me up before another group does, in which case maybe I face slightly less scrutiny compared to if I was in Detroit or Cleveland where they're the only game in town and I have to pretty much wait decades.

Size is one of the most important factors in power, though certainly not the only one. A family of 200 is simply going to have more influence and reach than a family of 20. To say nothing of staving off attrition for much longer.

New Orleans is on the way back look at the case of the guy in the van that shows a big highly structured network

[Etna]

Maybe size does not always equate to power. Having large numbers is beneficial but there's more to it than sheer manpower. If NO or Tampa or LA or CL wanted, they had the resources to induct 100 members each, they didn't. One can conclude they just thought it was going to last forever and didn't feel the need (probably part of it) but maybe rampant recruitment isn't always a cornerstone, especially outside of the east coast where there's less competition? If I want to get made in NY and one Family won't there's 4 ours to choose from and if I'm good at generating money someone may want to swoop me up before another group does, in which case maybe I face slightly less scrutiny compared to if I was in Detroit or Cleveland where they're the only game in town and I have to pretty much wait decades.

Size is one of the most important factors in power, though certainly not the only one. A family of 200 is simply going to have more influence and reach than a family of 20. To say nothing of staving off attrition for much longer.

New Orleans is on the way back look at the case of the guy in the van that shows a big highly structured network

Is this sarcasm?

[Angelo Santino]

Maybe size does not always equate to power. Having large numbers is beneficial but there's more to it than sheer manpower. If NO or Tampa or LA or CL wanted, they had the resources to induct 100 members each, they didn't. One can conclude they just thought it was going to last forever and didn't feel the need (probably part of it) but maybe rampant recruitment isn't always a cornerstone, especially outside of the east coast where there's less competition? If I want to get made in NY and one Family won't there's 4 ours to choose from and if I'm good at generating money someone may want to swoop me up before another group does, in which case maybe I face slightly less scrutiny compared to if I was in Detroit or Cleveland where they're the only game in town and I have to pretty much wait decades.

Size is one of the most important factors in power, though certainly not the only one. A family of 200 is simply going to have more influence and reach than a family of 20. To say nothing of staving off attrition for much longer.

It's important and it is a factor, just not the only factor. If number size alone was the measuring tool then Marcello and Trafficante wouldn't have been national players at Costello's level who was in partnership with them. All three men seemed independently wealthy, the bulk of that wealth likely wasn't generated through weekly envelops from the underlings but through their own deals nationally and in Cuba.

[Angelo Santino]

Maybe size does not always equate to power. Having large numbers is beneficial but there's more to it than sheer manpower. If NO or Tampa or LA or CL wanted, they had the resources to induct 100 members each, they didn't. One can conclude they just thought it was going to last forever and didn't feel the need (probably part of it) but maybe rampant recruitment isn't always a cornerstone, especially outside of the east coast where there's less competition? If I want to get made in NY and one Family won't there's 4 ours to choose from and if I'm good at generating money someone may want to swoop me up before another group does, in which case maybe I face slightly less scrutiny compared to if I was in Detroit or Cleveland where they're the only game in town and I have to pretty much wait decades.

Size is one of the most important factors in power, though certainly not the only one. A family of 200 is simply going to have more influence and reach than a family of 20. To say nothing of staving off attrition for much longer.

New Orleans is on the way back look at the case of the guy in the van that shows a big highly structured network

Is this sarcasm?

Furio and I are working on the 2020 chart now, it's gonna blow everyone's socks off.

[Angelo Santino]

Just from the early history of the NO mafia, I think the organization was much larger in the 19th century up to Silver Dollar Sam's reign.

I've wondered about this too. The entire history has been scrubbed and lost so I don't think we'll ever know. Before NY, Nola was the Sicilian Epicenter up until the 1890's, for all we know there might have been several groups there like we seen with NY that faded or merged before their contemporary history started being documented. We'll never know. Had the South not lost the war, NY never would have replaced Nola as America's premier city and the concentration might have stayed centered around NO.

[Etna]

Just from the early history of the NO mafia, I think the organization was much larger in the 19th century up to Silver Dollar Sam's reign.

I've wondered about this too. The entire history has been scrubbed and lost so I don't think we'll ever know. Before NY, Nola was the Sicilian Epicenter up until the 1890's, for all we know there might have been several groups there like we seen with NY that faded or merged before their contemporary history started being documented. We'll never know. Had the South not lost the war, NY never would have replaced Nola as America's premier city and the concentration might have stayed centered around NO.

As you look from Rafaelle Agnello's time, to the Provenzano - Matranga war, the macheroni wars and then the guys spread out with connections.

I often wondered if the lynching caused a number of guys to scatter. Even when we discuss a top boss in the USA. I often wonder if NOLA held the first top boss before or upon Morello's arrival. He did after all live down there too.

[Angelo Santino]

Just from the early history of the NO mafia, I think the organization was much larger in the 19th century up to Silver Dollar Sam's reign.

I've wondered about this too. The entire history has been scrubbed and lost so I don't think we'll ever know. Before NY, Nola was the Sicilian Epicenter up until the 1890's, for all we know there might have been several groups there like we seen with NY that faded or merged before their contemporary history started being documented. We'll never know. Had the South not lost the war, NY never would have replaced Nola as America's premier city and the concentration might have stayed centered around NO.

As you look from Rafaelle Agnello's time, to the Provenzano - Matranga war, the macheroni wars and then the guys spread out with connections.

I often wondered if the lynching caused a number of guys to scatter. Even when we discuss a top boss in the USA. I often wonder if NOLA held the first top boss before or upon Morello's arrival. He did after all live down there too.

We don't know but I'd say its a strong possibility. From 1850 to 1870 I'd estimate 90% of the Sicilian population was there. 1872 is when the dam broke and by 1880 the mafia has spread to St Louis, Birmingham, San Francisco, rural PA and NYC. By 1902 NYC became the hub due immigration numbers.

There's kinda been an oversimplication of Italian history in New Orleans, there was discrimination but it was a grey area. Historians today like to paint Sicilians as being at the level blacks were and that they found commonality with each other, there's examples of that but there also existed the White Society, a predominantly Italian KKK group. By the time of the Hennessey lynchings, Italians had already been there for four decades and while biases existed, they wouldn't have been lynched just for being Italian.

Regarding people leaving after that, I believe the Monasteros left for Pittsburgh and their descents were boss for a year or two.