Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

According to the informant twenty members attended including a professor. That to me implies there was still an organization

That was in reference to Marottas induction ceremony in the early 1970s.


Pogo

Was it? I stand corrected but 2 guys or 20 guys, if the Bonannos recognized it, it's the same thing.

Again I'm not arguing the basic facts such as Todaro having the Boss title, Violi later inducted later was UndeRboss off a month in 2017, etc. We're talking the conclusion reached from those facts.

Then what are we arguing about? You just described the prerequisites of a Mafia Family what other conclusion are we to draw from? Everyone involved in the Buffalo discussion has kept those conclusions within the scope of plausibility and within line of what Violi stated. This seems to me that the argument is that to give credence to Buffalo means to give have to give credence to every other defunct family. It's not. The only time I'll ever argue LA is still active is when a Mexican born Italian is picked up in TJ saying he's Underboss to Tommy Gambino in LA. Apart from that, it likely won't be an issue. On BB maybe, not here.

Nor am i arguing about them still being recognized as LCN. Yes they are but that is a different matter. We are discussing if there is an actual structure beyond a few nominal and ultimately meaningless titles and most importantly, really the crux of the matter; wether there is actually a pattern of ongoing criminal activity from this group.

But we don't get to tell the mafia the amount of activity it requires to be recognized (D'Elia). There's a rule in Sicily that it requires 10 members to form a Family yet there's no rule that disbands a family for falling below any number or failing to maintain a minimum amount of criminal activity on an annual basis. Mob Families are not created equal, the way the structure functions in each group has its variations, some consiglieri personally advice the boss, others arbitrate crews, east coast and larger city Families tend to have supercrews of 10+ members, smaller family crews could number as low as 2, Genoveses are considered the Rolls Royce while Phila. is "the most dysfunctional", Colombos had 125+ and Phila 30+ in the 90's and Scranton just 1, they were all recognized as Families equally despite not being on equal footing. We don't get to draw a line and say ok this is a family and this one isn't. I mean we can but we can't expect the mafia to tow it, which brings us back to the line we made and its fallacies. We observe the organization, we can't decide for it. I can sit here and mock "The Genius" Megale for his asinine comments while Underboss it doesn't change the fact that he was Under and I'm at my computer. If walking around dumbfounded at his own promotion and telling associates about it constitutes a genius in that world well, it's not what I would consider but what I want doesn't matter.

Again I point to the example of Angelo Lonardo who said "there is no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed". He said this even though he knew John Trolone had the title of Boss, that there were still about dozen members still living (a few with Capo ranks), an induction ceremony within the last few years, and contacts with NY, Pittsburgh, etc.


Pogo

Lonardo testified in 1986 when everybody was locked up. It wasn't until a few years later when Liberatore and then Loose were released. Prior to that, the family was decimated, pretty much where Phila was in 89-90... Stroccos can explain this better than I.

[CabriniGreen]

Who would be the most senior Mafia figure in Niagra Falls left?

[Peppermint]

After having read through this thread, I am honestly surprised there is an outfit in Canada.

As ignorant as it may be, I didn’t think there were even any Italian communities in Canada, let alone any families.

Pretty interesting stuff

[Lupara]

[Which gets us to the problem of the near impossibility that 20 made members (a full 2/3 of the family) would escape the detection of the FBI and state and local LE in the present day over a long period. What is more likely, that 2/3 of such a small family and all their criminal activity would go totally unnoticed by all LE over a several year period or that Violi was simply speaking off the cuff/boasting/exaggerating/simply mistaken?

I honestly believe the first option to be more likely, because it is a small family. 2/3 of a 300 member family being under the radar would be highly unlikely if not impossible due to the feds ability to gain intel. Not to mention that such a large family would remain a priority to keep an eye on. But this is a small family deemed insignificant by the feds since the turn of the century. Also, there may very well be a correlation between the last indictment (before 2017) in 2002 and the feds shifting away their attention to terrorism after 9/11. It really isn't that difficult to fill the ranks with a dozen or so new members within a couple of years if the recruitement pool is still sufficient and the candidates were available. Larger crime organizations have formed within such a timeframe before. And it's not unlikely the feds were already missing some names on their lists. Bottomline is that it seems unlikely until an underboss on tape states it isn't.

You guys are falling into the trap of using titles to prove activity and organization when you should be using activity to prove organization.

I think you're falling into the trap of your own perspective.

[Wiseguy]

Been away for a few days. First, a thank you to Pogo for being the sole voice of reason on this issue against an onslaught of dunces. Sorry if that sounds harsh but there's no other way to put it.

I don't know how to put it but you've won. You're evidence-based approach is now the main route people take, we just don't always agree with the evidence people draw from.

The fact that a thread about the current viability of friggin' Buffalo has gone over 300 pages would suggest otherwise. It may not be as blatant as it once was, but the idea that people think a family like Buffalo can re-emerge in the 21st century shows a real ignorance of the mob is alive and well. And it's ignorance by people who follow the mob and visit this forum on an almost daily basis, no less.

Hmmm... it’s actually embarrassing to be so condescending and so... incorrect. Fyi.

I think we both know it won't be me who will be proven wrong when this is all said and done. And you should stop pretending you're so sure of your position, considering how you starting quibbling after seeing Todaro in that pizza critic video.

"There’s zero buffalo mob. At least that this guys running. Who’s going to jeopardize that multi mill op for some light gambling envelopes followed by a Fed RICO. Nah, this guy is a pizza bar owner. Not a mob boss." - SonnyBlackstein (October 8, 2019)

It’s NOT the FBI’s word vs the RCMP’s.

What IT IS is a dated position of the FBI which was made BEFORE an abundance of evidence has surfaced which a similar specialist Law enforcement agency, the RCMP HAS incorporated and made statements reflecting such incorporation, into its understanding of the areas LCN landscape.

Can you understand that?

You’re comparing the Feds dated position and SILENCE with the RCMP’s fully informed and stated opinion.

Does that make sense to you?

I’ll rephrase, if the Feds came out tomorrow and stated Buffalo was gone, I’d be first to say you’re right. I’d eat humble pie, happily. But the Feds aren’t saying anything and the position, your position is based on dated, very dated, information. And there’s are highly respected specialist law agency which is stating that due the emergence of said evidence it conclusively points to an active Buffalo family.

How can you honestly and logically dismiss one agency incorporating new evidences position, over another agencies dated position (who knows if that even IS there bloody position today!) which doesn’t include the new evidence?

Your baseless dismissal of a Federal agencies evidentially based position by the silence and dated position of another’s is as narrow minded as all those mafia fan boys you think you’re dismissing. Again, the FBI has in no way come out and denied or contradicted the statements of the RCMP. Yet you yourself will dismiss RCMP statements and evidence on the silence of the FBI. Wow.

You’ve become what you hated mate. Ignoring evidence to fulfill a narrative.

That's an utterly desperate and dishonest argument.

In the 2017 press release below, the Eastern District mentions "members of the Todaro organized crime family." Right here, the FBI and the Justice Department had every opportunity to mention and expand upon a reorganization and re-emergence of the family...but they didn't. Hmmm...wonder why?

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/me ... s-arrested

So you trying to use them not coming out and specifically saying what is already understood - that Buffalo is defunct - is just lame. What the FBI has said about Buffalo isn't outdated because families (especially outside NYC) don't bounce back in the 21st century like you and others are envisioning. Doesn't happen. Period. I realize some here find that incredibly disappointing but facts don't care about your feelings.

This is not true. Me, Sonnyblackstein, Gohnjotti, Nicklecity, Tommynoto and others have beaten Wiseguy to pulp. Sure he keeps standing up but the brain damage inflicted is there, and it's irreversible. He is not the same man he was 10 months ago. He used to win, but just like Ali, the punches have added up and taken its toll. We all admire him for the legendary fights about Chicago and Detroit. Vicious battles with outraged 'guys from the neighborhood' he ultimately suckerpunched to oblivion. Some came back to challenge him, they were knocked out again. But there's an end to everything and his era as the undefeatable forum champion is over. There's indeed a new sheriff in town and his name is Domenico "the usurper of Montreal" Violi. It is time for our old lion to quit while he's still ahead, otherwise he'll only tarnish his legacy. Soon the feds will make a public anouncement on CNN admitting Buffalo is up and running again and if he's still here copypasting his arguments, he will receive a knock-out from which he won't recover.
I don't want to see this happening, I really don't.

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Surprise. The guy with a room temperature IQ, and evidently no reading comprehension skills, jumps in to stir the pot and of course add nothing to the discussion.


Pogo

Nobody, other either side of this argument, is even paying attention to Fugghedaboudit. He's the guy who stands on the sidelines during a fight and will only try and jump in and take a shot when he feels safe and can run away as quick as possible. He's always been the biggest chickenshit on this forum, bar none.

Great discussion. I love the different points of view! Here is a lynchpin for me: Did Joe Todaro really retire in 2006 and was the Buffalo mob really dead thereafter with little to no activity thereafter, or was this a misinformation campaign?

New evidence seems to indicate that Todaro never really retired. Even more, the Monty Massimi murder in 2007 appears to have the earmarks of continued mob activity in the supposed "dead years."

There have continued to be cases here and there in Buffalo over the past 20 years. I have a list of them. However, as I've said, they show a disjointed underworld, a sort of free for all, rather than ongoing operations by a viable mob family with a working hierarchy and any substanial control over their territory.

I knew this was going to be invoked. I don't think asking for a response regarding the recent RCMP findings is the same as asking that they reconfirm every family they labeled defunct. That's not the same thing at all. Sonny made a great point that the FBI has yet to comment on it. I would think if it was 100% false they would have no problem reconfirming that, instead there's been no comment. Maybe it's a case of no reporter with an in with the Buffalo FBI office asking or maybe they're not commenting for a reason. I see no benefit to them announcing: "We were wrong in our assessment, we are adding 10 new agents to our Buffalo office and Joe Todaro has become our number one target in WNY." I'm confident we're going to get a definitive answer in time, confirming or denying its existence. If and when if turns out its BS I'm fully prepared to admit that I was wrong, period, no buts. Would you guys be able to do the same if it goes the other way? Sure, there'd be some posters who couldn't help getting in a jab at your being wrong but the mature ones wouldn't. I wouldn't ask you to eat crow but I would ask you to consider in the future, the importance of mafia culture and what they consider to be what. Not as a replacement or a invalidation for the Viability Theory but as an extra lens to view things through. It's useful in understanding how and why a Joe Loose, D'Elia etc can be recognized as bosses. Anatomy and Physiology, go hand in hand but they're not the same thing.

That's just it, you likely won't get a definitive answer from the FBI. And that's because, as far as they're concerned, there's not even a question. It's settled. It's why you didn't see a press conference of them clarifying things after the 2010 bust in Kansas City. I realize this comes a shock to some of you but the Bureau may not be as impressed with recent events - and what that means for the Buffalo LCN - as you guys are.

And, while maybe not you Christie, if history is any guide, most here won't come back and admit they're wrong about Buffalo making a comeback. Not a single poster on the Detroit issue ever did. As I said, what's going to happen is all this will slowly fade away as the 2017 bust gets further into the past and no big news or indictments occur. And eventually people here will just hope it's forgotten rather than have to own up to their bullshit. Hide and watch.

The RCMP hasn’t “said” anything about membership because Violi did it for him, even if what he said was an estimate or exaggeration. He said “30 guys.” He beat out 30 guys for the position of underboss in the Todaro crime family, according to him. Morena, who knows Todaro family members and has a solid grasp of their activities, did not probe further into the “30 guys” comment (at least they haven’t released any tapes to indicate that) so we can imagine that he is also under the impression, for whatever reason, that the US-based Todaro crime family, whose administration has historically been US-based until recently, had approximately 30 guys, or within that ballpark.

Regarding “structure.” Prosecutors, from the Morena tapes, announced in court that Leonard Falzone reorganised the family somewhat in 2014, and that there is at least one captain in Canada, so we can assume there is at least one captain in Buffalo unless Joe Jr. is directly in charge of them. Prosecutors also alleged that other crime families in NY were contacted about the promotion, indicating that there is a structure in place that allows for communication between high-ranking organised crime figures in NY. I doubt Vincent LoScalzo or some other defunct boss could reach out to the bosses in NY. So that’s some structure there, as well as enough of a structure to allow for one making ceremony, and other planned making ceremony in the works.

Regarding activities. The RCMP did not allege any crimes on the US side. Why? Because Morena wasn’t in Buffalo. He wasn’t on name to name basis with Todaro. He didn’t know what was happening in the actual city unless Violi told him. And, in the life, people don’t usually go around blabbering about crimes that other people are committing, like “such and such is a big time shylock, such and such is my coke guy in Buffalo.” Or, maybe Violi did blabbermouth but it wasn’t included in the tapes cited by prosecutors because it wasn’t relevant to the RCMP’s case.

Violi's "30 guys" comment has already been addressed several times, including how unlikely it is given the numbers we know about. I've done (and posted) the math more than once and how it shows we shouldn't take his comment at face value, which many here are so ready to do.

Also, NickleCity is dropping some HEAT. Good info, incredibly interesting stuff about the 2007 murder and how deep these connections in Buffalo run.

Also, unlike Fughettaboutit and a couple other posters, I am not out to shut Pogo or Wiseguy down and belittle them. They’re viewing things from a different lense, and they could easily be correct. Prosecutorial misconduct happens all the time, so the prosecutors in Canada could easily be jumping to conclusions, and the National Post could have also gotten things mixed up along the way in their interpretation.

Or, Violi was overhyping Buffalo’s significance to legitimatise his position with his Bonanno pals. He doesn’t want to be looked down upon as a chief with no Indians, right?

But, with all of that in mind, I’m still taking what Canadian prosecutors say as fact, for now, because if we can’t trust LE to separate fact from fiction, then a lot of what we know about the Canadian mob can be called into question.

NickleCity is a nice guy, and does find some interesting things, but he's doing the same thing he's always done. Finding random things here and there, trying to find connections and points of intersection, all of which amount to a big, steaming pile of nothing in the end. At least regarding the viability of the Buffalo LCN.

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Just a lot of "could be's" and "what if's." Sometimes there really is smoke without fire.

I'm not talking about the basic facts but the conclusions reached from those facts. Read it again. "Suggest a revaluation", "suggest a resurrection", "seemed to begin", etc. It is clear that these are the writer's interpretation. Either way the point is moot since no one in Canda, LE or otherwise, is going to have a better grasp of the current state of Buffalo than the Buffalo FBI Field Office and other state and local LE investigating Buffalo.

Yup.

You're right in that court papers may not have explicitly said the Todaro crime family was making a resurgence. But regardless of the terminology, we have dates and names and formal titles that gives legitimacy to their claims. Did court papers say "Leonard (the Calzone) Falzone began resuscitating the family in 2014?" No, but the RCMP apparently discovered during their 2014-2017 investigation that Falzone was active in the affairs of the Todaro crime family, and that Falzone's activity marked some sort of turnaround from the family's activities from 2006-2014.

This goes back to what I first replied to Christie above. That posters on this forum, even long time ones, can think a family like Buffalo can make a resurgance shows a real ignorance of the mob and how things are today is alive and well. That's not me being condescening. Simply stating a fact.

Again I'm not arguing the basic facts such as Todaro having the Boss title, Violi later inducted later was UndeRboss off a month in 2017, etc. We're talking the conclusion reached from those facts.


Nor am i arguing about them still being recognized as LCN. Yes they are but that is a different matter. We are discussing if there is an actual structure beyond a few nominal and ultimately meaningless titles and most importantly, really the crux of the matter; wether there is actually a pattern of ongoing criminal activity from this group.


Again I point to the example of Angelo Lonardo who said "there is no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed". He said this even though he knew John Trolone had the title of Boss, that there were still about dozen members still living (a few with Capo ranks), an induction ceremony within the last few years, and contacts with NY, Pittsburgh, etc.


Pogo

These points and examples have been repeated ad nauseum in this thread. Yet, these guys either have the memory of a goldfish or are just conveniently ignorning it all. But that's what happens when you're going on wishful thinking. Far from being just a joke, that Todaro/UFO "I want to believe" pic is the driving force for them here. Not any "evidence," or how they choose to interpret it. Simply put, an active, resurgent Buffalo is more exciting than one that's not. That's all this has ever been about. It's a sad state of affairs. In the end, one can only hope they get the help they need; which will probably require a team at the university level. None of this once-a-week for $80 shit.

[SonnyBlackstein]

After having read through this thread, I am honestly surprised there is an outfit in Canada.
As ignorant as it may be, I didn’t think there were even any Italian communities in Canada, let alone any families.

There are substantial Italian mafia operations predominantly throughout the golden horseshoe region of Ontario and Montreal. Ontario has close to 1 million ethnic italians and Quebec 350k. There are 7-9 Nhdrangheta (Calabrian) cells/families in the GTA (greater Toronto Area), Hamilton has an uncertain Cosa Nostra (Sicilian) composition with various factions/familes consisting of Musitano, Papalia and Luppino's. Though there independence/association etc is contentious and unclear. Montreal has been historically firmly under the NYC Bonnano family though there is evidence that around the turn of the century the Montreal faction broke away from the Bonanno family. A Montreal war has raged for 15 years leaving literally over a hundred fatalities.

I'd say it has to do with status. Being a recognized made member of LCN still carries weight in the criminal circles he operated in regardless of where the induction came from.

Nope. He was given the choice of the Bonnano family as well.
If Buffalo doesnt exist why the hell would he have chosen it over the third largest family, in the country (and the only family with substantial operations in his country)?
So, Nope.

First, a thank you to Pogo for being the sole voice of reason on this issue against an onslaught of dunces.

Attacking the man not the argument. Off to a strong start.
B, Gohn, Chris Christie are.... Dunces. Says, Wiseguy. Which part of that equation would I rather be on? Hmmm..

but the idea that people think a family like Buffalo can re-emerge in the 21st century shows a real ignorance of the mob is alive and well. And it's ignorance by people who follow the mob

"The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated" God damn ignorant RCMP. They should listen to Wiseguy.

Hmmm... it’s actually embarrassing to be so condescending and so... incorrect. Fyi.

I think we both know it won't be me who will be proven wrong when this is all said and done. And you should stop pretending you're so sure of your position, considering how you starting quibbling after seeing Todaro in that pizza critic video.

"There’s zero buffalo mob. At least that this guys running. Who’s going to jeopardize that multi mill op for some light gambling envelopes followed by a Fed RICO. Nah, this guy is a pizza bar owner. Not a mob boss." - SonnyBlackstein (October 8, 2019)

Sigh. Child, listen. I made that statement on Oct 8th. On December 3rd the Violi tapes were revealed through court and via the National Enquirer. So I had an understanding and opinion of the Buffalo mafia before new information came to light, then when the new evidence was released I realised my ignorance and my error and changed my conclusion based upon overwhelming evidence. Which is the rational and mature response.
Something you are obviously unable to do.

It’s NOT the FBI’s word vs the RCMP’s.

What IT IS is a dated position of the FBI which was made BEFORE an abundance of evidence has surfaced which a similar specialist Law enforcement agency, the RCMP HAS incorporated and made statements reflecting such incorporation, into its understanding of the areas LCN landscape.

Can you understand that?

You’re comparing the Feds dated position and SILENCE with the RCMP’s fully informed and stated opinion.

Does that make sense to you?

I’ll rephrase, if the Feds came out tomorrow and stated Buffalo was gone, I’d be first to say you’re right. I’d eat humble pie, happily. But the Feds aren’t saying anything and the position, your position is based on dated, very dated, information. And there’s are highly respected specialist law agency which is stating that due the emergence of said evidence it conclusively points to an active Buffalo family.

How can you honestly and logically dismiss one agency incorporating new evidences position, over another agencies dated position (who knows if that even IS there bloody position today!) which doesn’t include the new evidence?

Your baseless dismissal of a Federal agencies evidentially based position by the silence and dated position of another’s is as narrow minded as all those mafia fan boys you think you’re dismissing. Again, the FBI has in no way come out and denied or contradicted the statements of the RCMP. Yet you yourself will dismiss RCMP statements and evidence on the silence of the FBI. Wow.

You’ve become what you hated mate. Ignoring evidence to fulfill a narrative.

That's an utterly desperate and dishonest argument.

In the 2017 press release below, the Eastern District mentions "members of the Todaro organized crime family." Right here, the FBI and the Justice Department had every opportunity to mention and expand upon a reorganization and re-emergence of the family...but they didn't. Hmmm...wonder why?

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/me ... s-arrested

So you trying to use them not coming out and specifically saying what is already understood - that Buffalo is defunct - is just lame. What the FBI has said about Buffalo isn't outdated because families (especially outside NYC) don't bounce back in the 21st century like you and others are envisioning. Doesn't happen. Period. I realize some here find that incredibly disappointing but facts don't care about your feelings.

Are you arguing against me or for me? Exerts:

"including members of the Todaro organized crime family"

"Assistant Director-in-Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, New York Field Office (FBI), announced the charges."

"Today’s arrests send a powerful message that this Office and our law enforcement partners here and abroad are committed to dismantling organized crime groups wherever they are located"

"Criminal enterprises, both national and international, contribute to the breakdown of a lawful society,” stated FBI Assistant Director-in-Charge Sweeney. “And yet, the allure of this gangland culture is often embraced and glamorized in movies and on television, where the threats posed to our economic and national security are seldom displayed. Dismantling and disrupting major international and national organized criminal enterprises is a longstanding area of FBI expertise, which is significantly enhanced through collaboration with our law enforcement partners and our Canadian partners. While we have more work to do, this operation is a giant step in the right direction.”

The above can clearly be read as the FBI recognizes the 'Todaro crime family" and goes on to state they are committed to fight OC groups. Even that they have, more work to do.

Question. How can the Todaro crime family be defunct if the FBI recognizes them? You know, your boys.

families (especially outside NYC) don't bounce back in the 21st century like you and others are envisioning. Doesn't happen. Period.

'The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated' RCMP.
'including members of the Todaro organized crime family' FBI

LE would appear to disagree with you.

Violi's "30 guys" comment has already been addressed several times, including how unlikely it is given the numbers we know about. I've done (and posted) the math more than once and how it shows we shouldn't take his comment at face value, which many here are so ready to do.

This is fucking priceless. "I disagree with what he says so Ive run a few hypothetical numbers on unknown scenarios, from my basement in Utah, which clearly proves the stated underboss caught on tape's clear statement, is something we should ignore. Ive run the numbers boys."

Ok boss, Ill take you and your utah basement hypotheticals, over a direct statement from the horses mouth. Sigh.

That posters on this forum, even long time ones, can think a family like Buffalo can make a resurgance shows a real ignorance of the mob and how things are today is alive and well. That's not me being condescening. Simply stating a fact.

Again, RCMP, whats the word, factually, disagree's. Factually. RCMP.
Wiseguy vs RCMP, Hmmmm.....

Again I'm not arguing the basic facts such as Todaro having the Boss title, Violi later inducted later was UndeRboss off a month in 2017, etc. We're talking the conclusion reached from those facts.

Nor am i arguing about them still being recognized as LCN. Yes they are but that is a different matter. We are discussing if there is an actual structure beyond a few nominal and ultimately meaningless titles and most importantly, really the crux of the matter; wether there is actually a pattern of ongoing criminal activity from this group.

Again I point to the example of Angelo Lonardo who said "there is no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed". He said this even though he knew John Trolone had the title of Boss, that there were still about dozen members still living (a few with Capo ranks), an induction ceremony within the last few years, and contacts with NY, Pittsburgh, etc.

Pogo

These points and examples have been repeated ad nauseum in this thread. Yet, these guys either have the memory of a goldfish or are just conveniently ignorning it all. But that's what happens when you're going on wishful thinking. Far from being just a joke, that Todaro/UFO "I want to believe" pic is the driving force for them here. Not any "evidence," or how they choose to interpret it. Simply put, an active, resurgent Buffalo is more exciting than one that's not. That's all this has ever been about. It's a sad state of affairs. In the end, one can only hope they get the help they need; which will probably require a team at the university level. None of this once-a-week for $80 shit.

If that was meant to be funny, clever and/or original, it was neither.

Welcome back

[Moscone65]

Wiseguy is so obnoxious its sickening. When hes wrong (which will happen sooner or later) hes going to get shit on by the whole forum. Speaking about getting help, I hope you be a bit more open minded and less combative for your own sake buddy. If you were to say the things you say in person youd get your lumps, but you say them on here, which shows the essence of who you are.

[SonnyBlackstein]

@Wiseguy.
Ive thought a little about why your attitude offends me so much and I hope you think a little about this post.

Your condescending, arrogant stupid quips are not directed at fanboys, bullshitters or trolls. You've directed your most venemous poison at the most respected posters on this board. B, CC and Gohn.

Youre behaving like an asshole not because of your argument, stance or position but because you belittle the most respected contributors here with personal insults rather than arguing the point itself in a respectful manner with those that have earnt more respect than any.
Including you.

[Pogo The Clown]

Nope. He was given the choice of the Bonnano family as well.
If Buffalo doesnt exist why the hell would he have chosen it over the third largest family, in the country (and the only family with substantial operations in his country)?
So, Nope.

And why would Gregory Genovese choose to transfer from the third largest and powerful Bonanno family to the small, weak and barely active San Francesico family? Countless examples of wiseguys choosing to be with smaller weaker groups over larger more powerful ones. I mean this not the NFL here.

Sigh. Child, listen. I made that statement on Oct 8th. On December 3rd the Violi tapes were revealed through court and via the National Enquirer. So I had an understanding and opinion of the Buffalo mafia before new information came to light, then when the new evidence was released I realised my ignorance and my error and changed my conclusion based upon overwhelming evidence. Which is the rational and mature response.
Something you are obviously unable to do.

Your timeline is off. The Violi revelation was in December of 2018. You flip flopped in October 2019. Now you are flip flopping again.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

And why would Gregory Genovese choose to transfer from the third largest and powerful Bonanno family to the small, weak and barely active San Francesico family? Countless examples of wiseguys choosing to be with smaller weaker groups over larger more powerful ones. I mean this not the NFL here.

Is that a serious argument? 'Perfectly understandable to choose a defuct group for your 'status' over the third largest Cosa Nostra family in the country and the only one in Canada'?

Okeydokey.

Your timeline is off. The Violi revelation was in December of 2018. You flip flopped in October 2019. Now you are flip flopping again.

Agreed. My error. Happy to own an off the cuff statement I made post watching a video.

[Pogo The Clown]

Is that a serious argument? 'Perfectly understandable to choose a defuct group for your 'status' over the third largest Cosa Nostra family in the country and the only one in Canada'?

Okeydokey.

Yeah seriously. These guys don't care who is the largest and most powerful. That is a media fascination. Like I said there are countless examples over the last 100+ years of wiseguys choosing to be with small and weak groups over large and powerful ones for a variety of different reasons. B. just posted a bunch today of guys choosing to be with the small, weak and barely active California families over the large and powerful NY families.


Pogo

[Lupara]

This goes back to what I first replied to Christie above. That posters on this forum, even long time ones, can think a family like Buffalo can make a resurgance shows a real ignorance of the mob and how things are today is alive and well.That's me being condescening by simply stating a presumption.

Fixed that for you. Thank me later.

[Wiseguy]

Attacking the man not the argument. Off to a strong start.

You're right.

I should have started out explaining (again and again) why the 2017 indictment and other news over the last few years should not be taken as reason to believe the Buffalo LCN has reorganized itself and re-emerged as a viable organization. Oh, wait...

I should have started out explaining (again and again) why people here should not be second-guessing the FBI on the state of an LCN family. Oh wait...

I should have started out explaining (again and again) how recent events surrounding Buffalo are not really different from the residual activity involving other defunct families. Oh wait...

Gohn, Chris Christie are.... Dunces. Says, Wiseguy. Which part of that equation would I rather be on? Hmmm..

I'd rather be on the side of the FBI. And, by that, I mean the actual FBI. Not your pretend, fantasy FBI where either complete silence or inapplicable statements support your position.

Are you arguing against me or for me? Exerts:

"including members of the Todaro organized crime family"

"Assistant Director-in-Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, New York Field Office (FBI), announced the charges."

"Today’s arrests send a powerful message that this Office and our law enforcement partners here and abroad are committed to dismantling organized crime groups wherever they are located"

"Criminal enterprises, both national and international, contribute to the breakdown of a lawful society,” stated FBI Assistant Director-in-Charge Sweeney. “And yet, the allure of this gangland culture is often embraced and glamorized in movies and on television, where the threats posed to our economic and national security are seldom displayed. Dismantling and disrupting major international and national organized criminal enterprises is a longstanding area of FBI expertise, which is significantly enhanced through collaboration with our law enforcement partners and our Canadian partners. While we have more work to do, this operation is a giant step in the right direction.”

The above can clearly be read as the FBI recognizes the 'Todaro crime family" and goes on to state they are committed to fight OC groups. Even that they have, more work to do.

Question. How can the Todaro crime family be defunct if the FBI recognizes them? You know, your boys.

The FBI recognizes members of the family. Not necessarily the family as a whole, as much as you want to twist it that way. During the Operation Thin Crust/Herbie Blitztein case in the late 1990's, authorities referred to "members of the Los Angeles crime family." That didn't mean they considered the organization as a whole viable.

This is fucking priceless. "I disagree with what he says so Ive run a few hypothetical numbers on unknown scenarios, from my basement in Utah, which clearly proves the stated underboss caught on tape's clear statement, is something we should ignore. Ive run the numbers boys."

Ok boss, Ill take you and your utah basement hypotheticals, over a direct statement from the horses mouth. Sigh.

They're not hypotheticals. Another lie from you. The numbers I've put forth have been from law enforcement. As well as known members who have died. They shown a clear pattern of consistent decline in membership over the past 20 years that can't be denied by any honest observer. As well as how unlikely it is they shot back up to over 30.

Again, RCMP, whats the word, factually, disagree's. Factually. RCMP.
Wiseguy vs RCMP, Hmmmm.....

You can keep repeating "RCMP" all day long. As I said above, let's just see how many more cases they bring against the Buffalo mob. What are you going to say when we're sitting here 5 or 10 years from now and we've seen little or nothing else?

If that was meant to be funny, clever and/or original, it was neither.

But it was applicable.

Wiseguy is so obnoxious its sickening. When hes wrong (which will happen sooner or later) hes going to get shit on by the whole forum. Speaking about getting help, I hope you be a bit more open minded and less combative for your own sake buddy. If you were to say the things you say in person youd get your lumps, but you say them on here, which shows the essence of who you are.

When I'm wrong about what?

@Wiseguy.
Ive thought a little about why your attitude offends me so much and I hope you think a little about this post.

Your condescending, arrogant stupid quips are not directed at fanboys, bullshitters or trolls. You've directed your most venemous poison at the most respected posters on this board. B, CC and Gohn.

Youre behaving like an asshole not because of your argument, stance or position but because you belittle the most respected contributors here with personal insults rather than arguing the point itself in a respectful manner with those that have earnt more respect than any.
Including you.

I don't respect the position these people are holding. Not one bit. It's not both sides looking at the facts and coming to different conclusions. It's one side having a solid grasp of the LCN today and the other simply not. If this were GBB, or if this were 15 or 20 years agao, it would be understandable. But, at this point, you guys should know better.

I will say the only one that has put forth a position that I will acknoweldge is Christie. But that's a different argument altogether and it becomes a case of comparing apples and oranges.

Fixed that for you. Thank me later.

What presumption? Ignorance of the LCN in the U.S. today, as well as wishful thinking, on the part of you guys, is what has fueled this 300+ page thread.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Attacking the man not the argument. Off to a strong start.

You're right.
I should have started out explaining (again and again) why the 2017 indictment and other news over the last few years should not be taken as reason to believe the Buffalo LCN has reorganized itself and re-emerged as a viable organization. Oh, wait...
I should have started out explaining (again and again) why people here should not be second-guessing the FBI on the state of an LCN family. Oh wait...
I should have started out explaining (again and again) how recent events surrounding Buffalo are not really different from the residual activity involving other defunct families. Oh wait...

So if you've made your argument, why throw personal insults?

Looks petty to me.

Gohn, Chris Christie are.... Dunces. Says, Wiseguy. Which part of that equation would I rather be on? Hmmm..

I'd rather be on the side of the FBI. And, by that, I mean the actual FBI. Not your pretend, fantasy FBI where either complete silence or inapplicable statements support your position.

Well I'm on the side of the United States Attorneys Office Eastern District of New York whose press release clearly stated 'members of the Todaro organised crime family"
The FBI, yup, my personal fantasy FBI, are on that side too (it was a joint release)

Are you arguing against me or for me? Exerts:

"including members of the Todaro organized crime family"

"Assistant Director-in-Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, New York Field Office (FBI), announced the charges."

"Today’s arrests send a powerful message that this Office and our law enforcement partners here and abroad are committed to dismantling organized crime groups wherever they are located"

"Criminal enterprises, both national and international, contribute to the breakdown of a lawful society,” stated FBI Assistant Director-in-Charge Sweeney. “And yet, the allure of this gangland culture is often embraced and glamorized in movies and on television, where the threats posed to our economic and national security are seldom displayed. Dismantling and disrupting major international and national organized criminal enterprises is a longstanding area of FBI expertise, which is significantly enhanced through collaboration with our law enforcement partners and our Canadian partners. While we have more work to do, this operation is a giant step in the right direction.”

The above can clearly be read as the FBI recognizes the 'Todaro crime family" and goes on to state they are committed to fight OC groups. Even that they have, more work to do.

Question. How can the Todaro crime family be defunct if the FBI recognizes them? You know, your boys.

The FBI recognizes members of the family. Not necessarily the family as a whole, as much as you want to twist it that way. During the Operation Thin Crust/Herbie Blitztein case in the late 1990's, authorities referred to "members of the Los Angeles crime family." That didn't mean they considered the organization as a whole viable.

It States clearly THE TODARO CRIME FAMILY. Its YOU who are presuming inactivity. Where in that statement does it say the INACTVE Todaro crime family? Who's seeing what they want to see now?

This is fucking priceless. "I disagree with what he says so Ive run a few hypothetical numbers on unknown scenarios, from my basement in Utah, which clearly proves the stated underboss caught on tape's clear statement, is something we should ignore. Ive run the numbers boys."

Ok boss, Ill take you and your utah basement hypotheticals, over a direct statement from the horses mouth. Sigh.

They're not hypotheticals. Another lie from you. The numbers I've put forth have been from law enforcement. As well as known members who have died. They shown a clear pattern of consistent decline in membership over the past 20 years that can't be denied by any honest observer. As well as how unlikely it is they shot back up to over 30.

Again, RCMP, whats the word, factually, disagree's. Factually. RCMP.
Wiseguy vs RCMP, Hmmmm.....

You can keep repeating "RCMP" all day long. As I said above, let's just see how many more cases they bring against the Buffalo mob. What are you going to say when we're sitting here 5 or 10 years from now and we've seen little or nothing else?

What a stupid fucking comment "you can say RCMP all day long...' So I can state facts all day long?

Why all the tap dancing? Just answer this; Are the RCMP lying? Yes or No?

If that was meant to be funny, clever and/or original, it was neither.

But it was applicable.

Insults in a debate arent mate. Its just weak.

@Wiseguy.
Ive thought a little about why your attitude offends me so much and I hope you think a little about this post.

Your condescending, arrogant stupid quips are not directed at fanboys, bullshitters or trolls. You've directed your most venemous poison at the most respected posters on this board. B, CC and Gohn.

Youre behaving like an asshole not because of your argument, stance or position but because you belittle the most respected contributors here with personal insults rather than arguing the point itself in a respectful manner with those that have earnt more respect than any.
Including you.

I don't respect the position these people are holding. Not one bit. It's not both sides looking at the facts and coming to different conclusions. It's one side having a solid grasp of the LCN today and the other simply not. If this were GBB, or if this were 15 or 20 years agao, it would be understandable. But, at this point, you guys should know better.

You dont respect the position, argue the postion, stop throwing insults, because HERE's the thing, you win or lose, the way you debate, you lose respect. Dont do that. Win WITH respect. Or, lose with respect. Its actually a choice.

Me, I dont mind being wrong, its an unknown, so its ok. I can't control that. But if Im just a jerk-off win or lose? Then thats on me.

[Lupara]

What presumption? Ignorance of the LCN in the U.S. today, as well as wishful thinking, on the part of you guys, is what has fueled this 300+ page thread.

What fueled this thread, with an emphasis on fueled, has been you stirring up the pot by being a dick. You made your opinion clear on the first page and then pressed on repeat on every page that followed. 300 pages later, nobody changed his opinion. So perhaps you should consider a different aproach, because if your goal is to change the general consensus, it ain't working.