Been away for a few days. First, a thank you to Pogo for being the sole voice of reason on this issue against an onslaught of dunces. Sorry if that sounds harsh but there's no other way to put it.
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:00 amI don't know how to put it but you've won. You're evidence-based approach is now the main route people take, we just don't always agree with the evidence people draw from.
The fact that a thread about the current viability of friggin' Buffalo has gone over 300 pages would suggest otherwise. It may not be as blatant as it once was, but the idea that people think a family like Buffalo can re-emerge in the 21st century shows a real ignorance of the mob is alive and well. And it's ignorance by people who follow the mob and visit this forum on an almost daily basis, no less.
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:18 pmHmmm... it’s actually embarrassing to be so condescending and so... incorrect. Fyi.
I think we both know it won't be me who will be proven wrong when this is all said and done. And you should stop pretending you're so sure of your position, considering how you starting quibbling after seeing Todaro in that pizza critic video.
"There’s zero buffalo mob. At least that this guys running. Who’s going to jeopardize that multi mill op for some light gambling envelopes followed by a Fed RICO. Nah, this guy is a pizza bar owner. Not a mob boss." - SonnyBlackstein (October 8, 2019)
It’s NOT the FBI’s word vs the RCMP’s.
What IT IS is a dated position of the FBI which was made BEFORE an abundance of evidence has surfaced which a similar specialist Law enforcement agency, the RCMP HAS incorporated and made statements reflecting such incorporation, into its understanding of the areas LCN landscape.
Can you understand that?
You’re comparing the Feds dated position and SILENCE with the RCMP’s fully informed and stated opinion.
Does that make sense to you?
I’ll rephrase, if the Feds came out tomorrow and stated Buffalo was gone, I’d be first to say you’re right. I’d eat humble pie, happily. But the Feds aren’t saying anything and the position, your position is based on dated, very dated, information. And there’s are highly respected specialist law agency which is stating that due the emergence of said evidence it conclusively points to an active Buffalo family.
How can you honestly and logically dismiss one agency incorporating new evidences position, over another agencies dated position (who knows if that even IS there bloody position today!) which doesn’t include the new evidence?
Your baseless dismissal of a Federal agencies evidentially based position by the silence and dated position of another’s is as narrow minded as all those mafia fan boys you think you’re dismissing. Again, the FBI has in no way come out and denied or contradicted the statements of the RCMP. Yet you yourself will dismiss RCMP statements and evidence on the silence of the FBI. Wow.
You’ve become what you hated mate. Ignoring evidence to fulfill a narrative.
That's an utterly desperate and dishonest argument.
In the 2017 press release below, the Eastern District mentions "members of the Todaro organized crime family." Right
here, the FBI and the Justice Department had
every opportunity to mention and expand upon a reorganization and re-emergence of the family...but they didn't. Hmmm...wonder why?
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/me ... s-arrested
So you trying to use them not coming out and specifically saying what is already understood - that Buffalo is defunct - is just lame. What the FBI has said about Buffalo isn't outdated because families (especially outside NYC) don't bounce back in the 21st century like you and others are envisioning. Doesn't happen. Period. I realize some here find that incredibly disappointing but facts don't care about your feelings.
Lupara wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:51 pmThis is not true. Me, Sonnyblackstein, Gohnjotti, Nicklecity, Tommynoto and others have beaten Wiseguy to pulp. Sure he keeps standing up but the brain damage inflicted is there, and it's irreversible. He is not the same man he was 10 months ago. He used to win, but just like Ali, the punches have added up and taken its toll. We all admire him for the legendary fights about Chicago and Detroit. Vicious battles with outraged 'guys from the neighborhood' he ultimately suckerpunched to oblivion. Some came back to challenge him, they were knocked out again. But there's an end to everything and his era as the undefeatable forum champion is over. There's indeed a new sheriff in town and his name is Domenico "the usurper of Montreal" Violi. It is time for our old lion to quit while he's still ahead, otherwise he'll only tarnish his legacy. Soon the feds will make a public anouncement on CNN admitting Buffalo is up and running again and if he's still here copypasting his arguments, he will receive a knock-out from which he won't recover.
I don't want to see this happening, I really don't.
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Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:58 pm
Surprise. The guy with a room temperature IQ, and evidently no reading comprehension skills, jumps in to stir the pot and of course add nothing to the discussion.
Pogo
Nobody, other either side of this argument, is even paying attention to Fugghedaboudit. He's the guy who stands on the sidelines during a fight and will only try and jump in and take a shot when he feels safe and can run away as quick as possible. He's always been the biggest chickenshit on this forum, bar none.
NickleCity wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:36 pm
Great discussion. I love the different points of view! Here is a lynchpin for me: Did Joe Todaro really retire in 2006 and was the Buffalo mob really dead thereafter with little to no activity thereafter, or was this a misinformation campaign?
New evidence seems to indicate that Todaro never really retired. Even more, the Monty Massimi murder in 2007 appears to have the earmarks of continued mob activity in the supposed "dead years."
There have continued to be cases here and there in Buffalo over the past 20 years. I have a list of them. However, as I've said, they show a disjointed underworld, a sort of free for all, rather than ongoing operations by a viable mob family with a working hierarchy and any substanial control over their territory.
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:59 pmI knew this was going to be invoked. I don't think asking for a response regarding the recent RCMP findings is the same as asking that they reconfirm every family they labeled defunct. That's not the same thing at all. Sonny made a great point that the FBI has yet to comment on it. I would
think if it was 100% false they would have no problem reconfirming that, instead there's been no comment. Maybe it's a case of no reporter with an in with the Buffalo FBI office asking or maybe they're not commenting for a reason. I see no benefit to them announcing: "We were wrong in our assessment, we are adding 10 new agents to our Buffalo office and Joe Todaro has become our number one target in WNY." I'm confident we're going to get a definitive answer in time, confirming or denying its existence. If and when if turns out its BS I'm fully prepared to admit that I was wrong, period, no buts. Would you guys be able to do the same if it goes the other way? Sure, there'd be some posters who couldn't help getting in a jab at your being wrong but the mature ones wouldn't. I wouldn't ask you to eat crow but I would ask you to consider in the future, the importance of mafia culture and what they consider to be what. Not as a replacement or a invalidation for the Viability Theory but as an extra lens to view things through. It's useful in understanding how and why a Joe Loose, D'Elia etc can be recognized as bosses. Anatomy and Physiology, go hand in hand but they're not the same thing.
That's just it, you likely
won't get a definitive answer from the FBI. And that's because, as far as they're concerned, there's not even a question. It's
settled. It's why you didn't see a press conference of them clarifying things after the 2010 bust in Kansas City. I realize this comes a shock to some of you but the Bureau may not be as impressed with recent events - and what that means for the Buffalo LCN - as you guys are.
And, while maybe not
you Christie, if history is any guide, most here won't come back and admit they're wrong about Buffalo making a comeback. Not a single poster on the Detroit issue ever did. As I said, what's going to happen is all this will slowly fade away as the 2017 bust gets further into the past and no big news or indictments occur. And eventually people here will just hope it's forgotten rather than have to own up to their bullshit. Hide and watch.
The RCMP hasn’t “said” anything about membership because Violi did it for him, even if what he said was an estimate or exaggeration. He said “30 guys.” He beat out 30 guys for the position of underboss in the Todaro crime family, according to him. Morena, who knows Todaro family members and has a solid grasp of their activities, did not probe further into the “30 guys” comment (at least they haven’t released any tapes to indicate that) so we can imagine that he is also under the impression, for whatever reason, that the US-based Todaro crime family, whose administration has historically been US-based until recently, had approximately 30 guys, or within that ballpark.
Regarding “structure.” Prosecutors, from the Morena tapes, announced in court that Leonard Falzone reorganised the family somewhat in 2014, and that there is at least one captain in Canada, so we can assume there is at least one captain in Buffalo unless Joe Jr. is directly in charge of them. Prosecutors also alleged that other crime families in NY were contacted about the promotion, indicating that there is a structure in place that allows for communication between high-ranking organised crime figures in NY. I doubt Vincent LoScalzo or some other defunct boss could reach out to the bosses in NY. So that’s some structure there, as well as enough of a structure to allow for one making ceremony, and other planned making ceremony in the works.
Regarding activities. The RCMP did not allege any crimes on the US side. Why? Because Morena wasn’t in Buffalo. He wasn’t on name to name basis with Todaro. He didn’t know what was happening in the actual city unless Violi told him. And, in the life, people don’t usually go around blabbering about crimes that other people are committing, like “such and such is a big time shylock, such and such is my coke guy in Buffalo.” Or, maybe Violi did blabbermouth but it wasn’t included in the tapes cited by prosecutors because it wasn’t relevant to the RCMP’s case.
Violi's "30 guys" comment has already been addressed several times, including how unlikely it is given the numbers we know about. I've done (and posted) the math more than once and how it shows we shouldn't take his comment at face value, which many here are so ready to do.
gohnjotti wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:11 pm
Also, NickleCity is dropping some HEAT. Good info, incredibly interesting stuff about the 2007 murder and how deep these connections in Buffalo run.
Also, unlike Fughettaboutit and a couple other posters, I am not out to shut Pogo or Wiseguy down and belittle them. They’re viewing things from a different lense, and they could easily be correct. Prosecutorial misconduct happens all the time, so the prosecutors in Canada could easily be jumping to conclusions, and the National Post could have also gotten things mixed up along the way in their interpretation.
Or, Violi was overhyping Buffalo’s significance to legitimatise his position with his Bonanno pals. He doesn’t want to be looked down upon as a chief with no Indians, right?
But, with all of that in mind, I’m still taking what Canadian prosecutors say as fact, for now, because if we can’t trust LE to separate fact from fiction, then a lot of what we know about the Canadian mob can be called into question.
NickleCity is a nice guy, and does find some interesting things, but he's doing the same thing he's always done. Finding random things here and there, trying to find connections and points of intersection, all of which amount to a big, steaming pile of
nothing in the end. At least regarding the viability of the Buffalo LCN.
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Just a lot of "could be's" and "what if's." Sometimes there really is smoke without fire.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:38 pmI'm not talking about the basic facts but the conclusions reached from those facts. Read it again. "Suggest a revaluation", "suggest a resurrection", "seemed to begin", etc. It is clear that these are the writer's interpretation. Either way the point is moot since no one in Canda, LE or otherwise, is going to have a better grasp of the current state of Buffalo than the Buffalo FBI Field Office and other state and local LE investigating Buffalo.
Yup.
gohnjotti wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:53 pmYou're right in that court papers may not have explicitly said the Todaro crime family was making a resurgence. But regardless of the terminology, we have dates and names and formal titles that gives legitimacy to their claims. Did court papers say "Leonard (the Calzone) Falzone began resuscitating the family in 2014?" No, but the RCMP apparently discovered during their 2014-2017 investigation that Falzone was active in the affairs of the Todaro crime family, and that Falzone's activity marked some sort of turnaround from the family's activities from 2006-2014.
This goes back to what I first replied to Christie above. That posters on this forum, even long time ones, can think a family like Buffalo can make a resurgance shows a real ignorance of the mob and how things are today is alive and well. That's not me being condescening. Simply stating a fact.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:14 pm
Again I'm not arguing the basic facts such as Todaro having the Boss title, Violi later inducted later was UndeRboss off a month in 2017, etc. We're talking the conclusion reached from those facts.
Nor am i arguing about them still being recognized as LCN. Yes they are but that is a different matter. We are discussing if there is an actual structure beyond a few nominal and ultimately meaningless titles and most importantly, really the crux of the matter; wether there is actually a pattern of ongoing criminal activity from this group.
Again I point to the example of Angelo Lonardo who said "there is no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed". He said this even though he knew John Trolone had the title of Boss, that there were still about dozen members still living (a few with Capo ranks), an induction ceremony within the last few years, and contacts with NY, Pittsburgh, etc.
Pogo
These points and examples have been repeated ad nauseum in this thread. Yet, these guys either have the memory of a goldfish or are just conveniently ignorning it all. But that's what happens when you're going on wishful thinking. Far from being just a joke, that Todaro/UFO "I want to believe" pic is the driving force for them here. Not any "evidence," or how they choose to interpret it. Simply put, an active, resurgent Buffalo is more exciting than one that's not. That's all this has ever been about. It's a sad state of affairs. In the end, one can only hope they get the help they need; which will probably require a team at the university level. None of this once-a-week for $80 shit.
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All roads lead to New York.