Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Pogo The Clown]

Yes because saying one of the big 5 had a reduced squad merged with another family and they are ramping back up is totally the same as saying we consider a family defunct and now active and we are again investigating.

You're splitting hairs. They thought the Bonannos were down and out and didn't require as much suvaillance (their words) but the family made "a comeback" (the agent interviewed used that very word). They publically admitted the resurgence of a family and their mistake in letting it happen.

Yes, but after the indictment, they didn't come to Massino's door and announce they made a mistake and were going to focus on him more. This investigation was carried on discreetly until they had enough to bring a case.

Actually it was before. The article came out in 2000. Massino wasn't indicted until 2003. Massino even gave a quote to the paper denying his involvement.


Pogo

[Fughedaboutit]

Yes because saying one of the big 5 had a reduced squad merged with another family and they are ramping back up is totally the same as saying we consider a family defunct and now active and we are again investigating.

You're splitting hairs. They thought the Bonannos were down and out and didn't require as much suvaillance (their words) but the family made "a comeback" (the agent interviewed used that very word). They publically admitted the resurgence of a family and their mistake in letting it happen.

Yes, but after the indictment, they didn't come to Massino's door and announce they made a mistake and were going to focus on him more. This investigation was carried on discreetly until they had enough to bring a case.

Actually it was before. The article came out in 2000. Massino wasn't indicted until 2003. Massino even gave a quote to the paper denying his involvement.


Pogo

It's actually not splitting hairs. It is a tremendous stretch to compare the FBI admitting that a family was down and out (but still a recognized family), to saying a family is done and then coming out and saying they are not. HUGE difference.

[Pogo The Clown]

Right so admitting they screwed up and that one of the major families has made a comeback in the biggest media market in the world, at a time when the media still cared about the mob, is less of a public embarrassment than admitting that some pissant group in a dead city that nobody cares about has made a slight resurgence at a time when the press couldn't care less about the mob.


Pogo

[cavita]

If we are to defer to the feds, then why, why, why would the feds name someone as boss of a family when there is no family left? For example William D'Elia or Gumba Saladino? Why don't the feds just say "We are indicting William D'Elia, former boss of the now-defunct Bufalino family." When the feds name someone as boss of a family that certainly implies there is a family to be a boss of. Plain and simple. What do the feds constitute as being a family? If we are going to put our faith in the FBI then we must take it for what it's worth.

[sdeitche]

@Wiseguy. I think I didn’t quite explain myself properly. For example, the Miami members in 2000 were named by prosecutors as being part of the Trafficante crime family criminal enterprise. AFAIK, the 2010 New Orleans case was not named by prosecutors as being part of the Marcello crime family racketeering conspiracy. That’s where the difference is.

Even if the feds wrote the Tampa crime family off in 1992, prosecutors in 2000 still had enough evidence to prove the Miami-based crew was still a Tampa crime family operation. I don’t think that was the case in NOLA in 2010, nor was it the case in Pittsburgh last February.

The FDLE (FL Dept of Law Enforcement) considered the Trafficante family active through the early 2000s (with the close ties to the Gambinos) though the FBI in Tampa were focused more on political corruption tied to it since many of the remaining family moved away from purely illegal activities into more white collar type activities. The FBI in South Florida led the Raffa bust.

I cant tell you exactly when either stopped considering them active. But once the main FDLE agent in charge of OC retired in mid 2000s and the FBI ended their corruption investigation around the same time (2005ish) I knew of no further law enforcement activity aimed squarely at the Trafficante family as an entity. But also by that time, the remaining guys were getting up there in years.

[gohnjotti]

@Wiseguy you’re right, I didn’t answer your question. That’s my bad. Your question was; “That begs the question at what point then do you consider a crime family finished? Because it seems, for some of you, as long as there are two made guys still breathing, there's still a family.”

I consider a crime family finished when there is no prosecutable racketeering conspiracy. For example, when those two New Orleans guys were busted in 2010 for illegal gambling, federal prosecutors couldn’t say “Look, this was a racketeering conspiracy pertaining to the New Orleans crime family.”

But with the Los Angeles Mafia, Jimmy Caci could be charged with committing crimes in furtherance of the Los Angeles Mafia racketeering conspiracy, because he committed his crimes under the auspices of such a family, he paid tribute, he exerted his status as a capo in the underworld, and he was intent on continuing the criminal organisation.

I don’t know whether or not the FBI considered the Trafficante crime family a viable threat by 2000, but when Capo Steve Raffa and his crew were indicted, they were prosecuted as part of the Tampa LCN racketeering conspiracy, right? To me, the Trafficante crime family was an active crime family because the FBI and prosecutors alike considered them an ongoing criminal enterprise.

First, in the New Orleans case, prosecutors did attribute it to the Marcello family due to the involvement of the boss, at least one other member, some associates. But they had still written off the family as a whole by that point.

I'm sorry, when I was referring to the New Orleans 2010 case, I actually meant the Kansas City 2010 case. My apologies.

My question is, did prosecutors name the Kansas City LCN as a criminal enterprise in the 2010 case? Did they allege that the crimes committed were in furtherance or a part of the Kansas City LCN racketeering conspiracy? If so, then you could consider the Kansas City LCN to be a viable criminal force as of 2010, in my opinion.

Second, it only takes two people to form a conspiracy. Going by your description above, the Pittsburgh family was still around at least up until associates Robert “Bobby” Iannielli, Rodney Iannelli, and Victor Marchitello were indicted for gambling last February. And Kansas City was still around at least up until 10 people, including members William Cammisano Jr. and James Moretina, were charged with gambling in 2010. And Tampa was still around at least up until when 8 people, including soldier John Mamone, were indicted for drug trafficking in 2004.

Speaking of Tampa, it was also one of the families the FBI was close to writing off in 1992. So, even though a few more cases would come, they weren't recognized by the feds by 2000. If memory serves, by that point the remnants of the family (though still Trafficantes) had affiliated themselves with the Gambinos.

The Tampa crime family wasn't recognized by the feds in 2000, sure, but the charged members were named in court papers as being part of the Tampa LCN racketeering conspiracy IIRC. It was a Tampa Mafia case, with references to capos and soldiers in court papers. If the FBI didn't recognize the family, were those members arrested in 2000 wrongfully convicted?

[gohnjotti]

@Wiseguy. I think I didn’t quite explain myself properly. For example, the Miami members in 2000 were named by prosecutors as being part of the Trafficante crime family criminal enterprise. AFAIK, the 2010 New Orleans case was not named by prosecutors as being part of the Marcello crime family racketeering conspiracy. That’s where the difference is.

Even if the feds wrote the Tampa crime family off in 1992, prosecutors in 2000 still had enough evidence to prove the Miami-based crew was still a Tampa crime family operation. I don’t think that was the case in NOLA in 2010, nor was it the case in Pittsburgh last February.

The FDLE (FL Dept of Law Enforcement) considered the Trafficante family active through the early 2000s (with the close ties to the Gambinos) though the FBI in Tampa were focused more on political corruption tied to it since many of the remaining family moved away from purely illegal activities into more white collar type activities. The FBI in South Florida led the Raffa bust.

I cant tell you exactly when either stopped considering them active. But once the main FDLE agent in charge of OC retired in mid 2000s and the FBI ended their corruption investigation around the same time (2005ish) I knew of no further law enforcement activity aimed squarely at the Trafficante family as an entity. But also by that time, the remaining guys were getting up there in years.

Bingo. That's what I figured. Great book on the Tampa mob by the way, bought a physical copy and read it in like 2 days. Do you know anything about Vincent LoScalzo being investigated for loansharking in the 2000s?

[sdeitche]

@Wiseguy. I think I didn’t quite explain myself properly. For example, the Miami members in 2000 were named by prosecutors as being part of the Trafficante crime family criminal enterprise. AFAIK, the 2010 New Orleans case was not named by prosecutors as being part of the Marcello crime family racketeering conspiracy. That’s where the difference is.

Even if the feds wrote the Tampa crime family off in 1992, prosecutors in 2000 still had enough evidence to prove the Miami-based crew was still a Tampa crime family operation. I don’t think that was the case in NOLA in 2010, nor was it the case in Pittsburgh last February.

The FDLE (FL Dept of Law Enforcement) considered the Trafficante family active through the early 2000s (with the close ties to the Gambinos) though the FBI in Tampa were focused more on political corruption tied to it since many of the remaining family moved away from purely illegal activities into more white collar type activities. The FBI in South Florida led the Raffa bust.

I cant tell you exactly when either stopped considering them active. But once the main FDLE agent in charge of OC retired in mid 2000s and the FBI ended their corruption investigation around the same time (2005ish) I knew of no further law enforcement activity aimed squarely at the Trafficante family as an entity. But also by that time, the remaining guys were getting up there in years.

Bingo. That's what I figured. Great book on the Tampa mob by the way, bought a physical copy and read it in like 2 days. Do you know anything about Vincent LoScalzo being investigated for loansharking in the 2000s?

Thank you.

LoScalzos name came up in the ValuCar investigation and some courthouse corrupion in the early 2000s. Im not sure, would have to check my files, if loansharking was one of the activities he was invesigated for.

[Fughedaboutit]

Right so admitting they screwed up and that one of the major families has made a comeback in the biggest media market in the world, at a time when the media still cared about the mob, is less of a public embarrassment than admitting that some pissant group in a dead city that nobody cares about has made a slight resurgence at a time when the press couldn't care less about the mob.


Pogo

Yep. Still don't get the difference between a downgraded family and a complete turn around on defunct vs active? I cannot help you there.

[Pogo The Clown]

Your point was that they wouldn't publically admit their mistake on something like this. I pointed out they already have. Now you are trying to paint some differences between the two scenarios to explain why they would admit a mistake in this case. Why? Becaus of some percieved embarrassment in doing so? Yeah I'm sure they really care what a few people on some obscure forums think. Since you know we are the only who would notice or care about any declaration they made about Buffalo.


Pogo

[Fughedaboutit]

Your point was that they wouldn't publically admit their mistake on something like this. I pointed out they already have. Now you are trying to paint some differences between the two scenarios to explain why they would admit a mistake in this case. Why? Becaus of some percieved embarrassment in doing so? Yeah I'm sure they really care what a few people on some obscure forums think. Since you know we are the only who would notice or care about any declaration they made about Buffalo.


Pogo

Convoluted and absolute reach to deflect the ridiculous nature of your remark.

[Pogo The Clown]

Ok so enlighten me. Why won't they publically admit a Buffalo resurgence if indeed there is one? I eagerly await your answer.


Pogo

[JCB1977]

Two made guys breathing? That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about - for both 2017 Buffalo and 1990s LA - an ongoing criminal enterprise with a formal structure, new inductions, a chain of command, and crimes committed in furtherance of the criminal enterprise.

This criteria applied to New Orleans in the early 1990s, Rochester in 1999, Scranton in the 1990s and LA, Tampa and Pittsburgh in the early 2000s yet in each case the FBI considered those families defunct. You can still have LCN activity via a few members still involved with crime or some members with some nominal titles but at the end what you really have is just the remnants of the organization.


Pogo

I agree 100%. Speaking in regards to Pittsburgh, they were considered defunct by 2003 some will say 2001 but after the Youngstown faction collapse in 1999, Sonny Ciancutti had a massive gambling bust spanning 3 counties in 2000 based off the Chucky Porter pipeline, things slowed down. John Bazzano Jr. died in 2008 but still had his longtime operation running through a nephew, Sonny Amato died in 2003 and his wife’s family and some nephews were still collecting and taking action. Mike Genovese died in late 2006 and while sick, he didn’t miss a cut of the profits or any equity in commercial real estate. Bobby Iannelli was and still is operating wide scale gambling ongoing criminal enterprise. Since then, a few former members and high ranking associates have been implicated in highly publicized major gambling enterprises. Are they kicking up to made guys? No. It is remnants of guys that don’t know how to do anything else for a living and they take in some of their old friends and some other new partners that they can bully based on their previous reputation and continue to operate. Having a lot of activity since being considered defunct doesn’t mean that the crime family is running as LCN. Career criminals setting up their own operation...no kick-ups. It’s a bookie’s dream. I’ve always contended they were defunct the day Michael Genovese died. He was still getting paid on all those guys operations, not nearly the income that came in the 80s and 90s but a significant amount. They lost all of their political influence and were not a threat but they were definitely still active at that time. The minute he died, nothing went up anymore. Bazzano and his people had Washington in Fayette County, Ciancutti had east Fayette County, Westmoreland County, Amato Jr. had the entire East End (Braddock, McKeesport, Turtle Creek on down the river), Williams Brothers in the Hill and McKees Rocks, Bobby I had parts of 5 counties with partners in several other states, Frank Unis Jr. still had Beaver County. ****Having said all this, I should note that each person still operating had nowhere close to the network that they once had, they had a little less than half of their former business. Political steam was gone by the mid-late 90’s and the FBI hit them hard with indictments, a few key cooperators and it all went to shit.

[Wiseguy]

@Wiseguy. I think I didn’t quite explain myself properly. For example, the Miami members in 2000 were named by prosecutors as being part of the Trafficante crime family criminal enterprise. AFAIK, the 2010 New Orleans case was not named by prosecutors as being part of the Marcello crime family racketeering conspiracy. That’s where the difference is.

Even if the feds wrote the Tampa crime family off in 1992, prosecutors in 2000 still had enough evidence to prove the Miami-based crew was still a Tampa crime family operation. I don’t think that was the case in NOLA in 2010, nor was it the case in Pittsburgh last February.

But what the feds heard on that pay phone stunned them -- various mob figures in Louisiana talking with their counterparts in the East about infiltrating the video poker businesses through "front organizations."

And the conversations revealed that Anthony Carolla -- who had lost out in the 40s to Marcello as boss -- was now leading the family and would be aided by Joseph "JoJo" Corrozo, described by prosecutors as a captain in the Gotti-dominated Gambino family.

"We had the advantage of being up on a wire, watching and listening day to day the mob literally re-emerging in New Orleans. It was unprecedented," Letten said.

...

In May 1994, a federal grand jury alleged that Worldwide Gaming and Louisiana Route Operators were nothing more than fronts for the Marcello and Gambino crime families, with the Genovese family also along for the ride.

https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2003/sep ... -gambling/

It's not my definition, it's my observations of the way the mob has typically worked after viewing it from it's formation to its transcendence. Scrape away the hierarchy and reduce it to its most basic foundations and it's a criminal mutual assistance group. They typically avoid venturing outside of their safe zones and rely on internal organizational connections.

Let's say a Gambino member and for some reason or another is looking to set up shop in Cleveland. More than likely, that member is going to ask other members who do they know down in Cleveland so they can use them as a point of contact. Eventually he'd be connected with Iacobacci and some arrangement would be made. He's not going to walz into CL and look at Joe Loose and say: "The Feds don't consider you viable so go fuck yourself."

So, just do I have this clear, anywhere there is still a made guy recognized by others (like D'Elia was), you consider an active family?

If so, we're essentially back to the Real Deal forum circa 2007 where there are still families in Scranton, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Kansas City, Tampa, New Orleans, Denver, and Los Angeles.

Wiseguy, so you don’t consider Kansas City as an active family In 2010? Why? If there is 9-10 made guys and a couple of dozen associates working for them, that is still a viable family. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence saying that there’s is no heirarchy? No. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence proving there is a heirarchy, no. But it’s safe to assume there could have been an active family there in 2010. If anything, all those guys charged back then have gotten out by now. In fact I k is a few of them, that are doing quite well. No clue if they got made or not, but I hardly believe they went fully legit just like that. Once a criminal in their 30’s or more, they will likely always be a criminal. Anyways, my point is, look at the musitanos. They are a small family in danger of going extinct. Most estimates have them at half a dozen made guys and a couple dozen or so associates. But they are still considered an active family are they not?

No, it's not safe to assume they were an active family in 2010. The feds hadn't considered the family active for years. That's why the bookmaking case came as a surprise. But it came and went. Just like this Buffalo stuff will.

And I'm not sure where you get your figures for KC members and associates. But just out of curiosity, LA still has about 7 members. Are they still an active family? Is Tampa still an active family with 5 members? What about Cleveland with 3 members? Can Pittsburgh get a shout out with 1 member? Anyone?

If we are to defer to the feds, then why, why, why would the feds name someone as boss of a family when there is no family left? For example William D'Elia or Gumba Saladino? Why don't the feds just say "We are indicting William D'Elia, former boss of the now-defunct Bufalino family." When the feds name someone as boss of a family that certainly implies there is a family to be a boss of. Plain and simple. What do the feds constitute as being a family? If we are going to put our faith in the FBI then we must take it for what it's worth.

Because, in those cases, prosecutors aren't going to get into the minutia of active vs defunct, as it would only confuse juries and give ammo to defense attornies. And, no, it doesn't necessarily imply they still consider the family active. The 5 NY families, New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and (arguably) Detroit are the only ones still acknowledged today.

My question is, did prosecutors name the Kansas City LCN as a criminal enterprise in the 2010 case? Did they allege that the crimes committed were in furtherance or a part of the Kansas City LCN racketeering conspiracy? If so, then you could consider the Kansas City LCN to be a viable criminal force as of 2010, in my opinion.

No, they didn't include organized crime charges or references to the LCN in the case.

[Angelo Santino]

So, just do I have this clear, anywhere there is still a made guy recognized by others (like D'Elia was), you consider an active family?

If so, we're essentially back to the Real Deal forum circa 2007 where there are still families in Scranton, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Kansas City, Tampa, New Orleans, Denver, and Los Angeles.

No, you should have it clear that they do! There's a political aspect to this. D'Elia was dealt with as a boss, not a member. His stature was recognized as such by the cities of Philly and New York. When Ralph Natale dealt with D'Elia, he dealt with him as a boss, he didn't look at him and say you're done, you're not on my level, I made 5 guys last week rounding my Family out to 30, you've made nobody in 20 years and Scranton has nobody but you.

You're approaching this from the opposite viewpoint of law enforcement where they consider active a collection of illegal activities that they can prosecute. In the 1970's considered SF inactive as most of their members were semi-retired (informants). However James Fratianno stated later on that SF still have 4 members which made up the SF organization. He said nothing about it being disbanded and that it was free to move in on. So while they may not have committed enough crimes to warrant further FBI scrutiny, they were still politically recognized as a formal LCN entity within the mafia atmosphere. Why does that matter?

We can come up with more recent examples but let's take Fratianno who went around the country misrepresenting himself as Acting Boss when he was Acting Underboss and how that counted against him. He can sit there all day and say he was actually running things while Tom Dragna worked in his clothing store or whatever he did. While from the FBI perspective Fratianno may have been more "active" in running the Family than Tom Dragna, doesn't change the fact that within mafia politics, Dragna was acting boss and Fratianno was misrepresenting his own position. Doesn't matter what the FBI or even Fratianno himself thinks, he was not Acting Boss.