gohnjotti wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:06 pm
@Wiseguy. I think I didn’t quite explain myself properly. For example, the Miami members in 2000 were named by prosecutors as being part of the Trafficante crime family criminal enterprise. AFAIK, the 2010 New Orleans case was not named by prosecutors as being part of the Marcello crime family racketeering conspiracy. That’s where the difference is.
Even if the feds wrote the Tampa crime family off in 1992, prosecutors in 2000 still had enough evidence to prove the Miami-based crew was still a Tampa crime family operation. I don’t think that was the case in NOLA in 2010, nor was it the case in Pittsburgh last February.
But what the feds heard on that pay phone stunned them -- various mob figures in Louisiana talking with their counterparts in the East about infiltrating the video poker businesses through "front organizations."
And the conversations revealed that Anthony Carolla -- who had lost out in the 40s to Marcello as boss -- was now leading the family and would be aided by Joseph "JoJo" Corrozo, described by prosecutors as a captain in the Gotti-dominated Gambino family.
"We had the advantage of being up on a wire, watching and listening day to day the mob literally re-emerging in New Orleans. It was unprecedented," Letten said.
...
In May 1994, a federal grand jury alleged that Worldwide Gaming and Louisiana Route Operators were nothing more than fronts for the Marcello and Gambino crime families, with the Genovese family also along for the ride.
https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2003/sep ... -gambling/
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:54 pm
It's not my definition, it's my observations of the way the mob has typically worked after viewing it from it's formation to its transcendence. Scrape away the hierarchy and reduce it to its most basic foundations and it's a criminal mutual assistance group. They typically avoid venturing outside of their safe zones and rely on internal organizational connections.
Let's say a Gambino member and for some reason or another is looking to set up shop in Cleveland. More than likely, that member is going to ask other members who do they know down in Cleveland so they can use them as a point of contact. Eventually he'd be connected with Iacobacci and some arrangement would be made. He's not going to walz into CL and look at Joe Loose and say: "The Feds don't consider you viable so go fuck yourself."
So, just do I have this clear, anywhere there is still a made guy recognized by others (like D'Elia was), you consider an active family?
If so, we're essentially back to the Real Deal forum circa 2007 where there are still families in Scranton, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Kansas City, Tampa, New Orleans, Denver, and Los Angeles.
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:56 pm
Wiseguy, so you don’t consider Kansas City as an active family In 2010? Why? If there is 9-10 made guys and a couple of dozen associates working for them, that is still a viable family. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence saying that there’s is no heirarchy? No. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence proving there is a heirarchy, no. But it’s safe to assume there could have been an active family there in 2010. If anything, all those guys charged back then have gotten out by now. In fact I k is a few of them, that are doing quite well. No clue if they got made or not, but I hardly believe they went fully legit just like that. Once a criminal in their 30’s or more, they will likely always be a criminal. Anyways, my point is, look at the musitanos. They are a small family in danger of going extinct. Most estimates have them at half a dozen made guys and a couple dozen or so associates. But they are still considered an active family are they not?
No, it's not safe to assume they were an active family in 2010. The feds hadn't considered the family active for years. That's why the bookmaking case came as a surprise. But it came and went. Just like this Buffalo stuff will.
And I'm not sure where you get your figures for KC members and associates. But just out of curiosity, LA still has about 7 members. Are they still an active family? Is Tampa still an active family with 5 members? What about Cleveland with 3 members? Can Pittsburgh get a shout out with 1 member? Anyone?
cavita wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:47 pm
If we are to defer to the feds, then why, why, why would the feds name someone as boss of a family when there is no family left? For example William D'Elia or Gumba Saladino? Why don't the feds just say "We are indicting William D'Elia, former boss of the now-defunct Bufalino family." When the feds name someone as boss of a family that certainly implies there is a family to be a boss of. Plain and simple. What do the feds constitute as being a family? If we are going to put our faith in the FBI then we must take it for what it's worth.
Because, in those cases, prosecutors aren't going to get into the minutia of active vs defunct, as it would only confuse juries and give ammo to defense attornies. And, no, it doesn't necessarily imply they still consider the family active. The 5 NY families, New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and (arguably) Detroit are the only ones still acknowledged today.
gohnjotti wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:03 pmMy question is, did prosecutors name the Kansas City LCN as a criminal enterprise in the 2010 case? Did they allege that the crimes committed were in furtherance or a part of the Kansas City LCN racketeering conspiracy? If so, then you could consider the Kansas City LCN to be a viable criminal force as of 2010, in my opinion.
No, they didn't include organized crime charges or references to the LCN in the case.
All roads lead to New York.