Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Cheech]

Im not saying they are a viable family. I have 0 idea what they are. I am not in the mafia or LE. What I do know is Porky comes up from SI for what? They are making mew members. Why? Evidently there is some organized criminal conspiracy going on. I mean its plain as day. To the extent no one knows except the perpetrators

[gohnjotti]

@Wiseguy you’re right, I didn’t answer your question. That’s my bad. Your question was; “That begs the question at what point then do you consider a crime family finished? Because it seems, for some of you, as long as there are two made guys still breathing, there's still a family.”

I consider a crime family finished when there is no prosecutable racketeering conspiracy. For example, when those two New Orleans guys were busted in 2010 for illegal gambling, federal prosecutors couldn’t say “Look, this was a racketeering conspiracy pertaining to the New Orleans crime family.”

But with the Los Angeles Mafia, Jimmy Caci could be charged with committing crimes in furtherance of the Los Angeles Mafia racketeering conspiracy, because he committed his crimes under the auspices of such a family, he paid tribute, he exerted his status as a capo in the underworld, and he was intent on continuing the criminal organisation.

I don’t know whether or not the FBI considered the Trafficante crime family a viable threat by 2000, but when Capo Steve Raffa and his crew were indicted, they were prosecuted as part of the Tampa LCN racketeering conspiracy, right? To me, the Trafficante crime family was an active crime family because the FBI and prosecutors alike considered them an ongoing criminal enterprise.

[Cheech]

@Wiseguy you’re right, I didn’t answer your question. That’s my bad. Your question was; “That begs the question at what point then do you consider a crime family finished? Because it seems, for some of you, as long as there are two made guys still breathing, there's still a family.”

I consider a crime family finished when there is no prosecutable racketeering conspiracy. For example, when those two New Orleans guys were busted in 2010 for illegal gambling, federal prosecutors couldn’t say “Look, this was a racketeering conspiracy pertaining to the New Orleans crime family.”

But with the Los Angeles Mafia, Jimmy Caci could be charged with committing crimes in furtherance of the Los Angeles Mafia racketeering conspiracy, because he committed his crimes under the auspices of such a family, he paid tribute, he exerted his status as a capo in the underworld, and he was intent on continuing the criminal organisation.

I don’t know whether or not the FBI considered the Trafficante crime family a viable threat by 2000, but when Capo Steve Raffa and his crew were indicted, they were prosecuted as part of the Tampa LCN racketeering conspiracy, right? To me, the Trafficante crime family was an active crime family because the FBI and prosecutors alike considered them an ongoing criminal enterprise.

That seems sound and reasonable

[Fughedaboutit]

Two made guys breathing? That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about - for both 2017 Buffalo and 1990s LA - an ongoing criminal enterprise with a formal structure, new inductions, a chain of command, and crimes committed in furtherance of the criminal enterprise.

This criteria applied to New Orleans in the early 1990s, Rochester in 1999, Scranton in the 1990s and LA, Tampa and Pittsburgh in the early 2000s yet in each case the FBI considered those families defunct. You can still have LCN activity via a few members still involved with crime or some members with some nominal titles but at the end what you really have is just the remnants of the organization.


Pogo

Ya but the Underboss says their is 30 members. What do u make of that?

And for the record idgaf about buffalo or of it has a mafia family but the underboss is on tape saying 30. Idk man. What else do u need to know?

Yeah I agree, I would take someones word from inside the family over an outside investigating agency. Then they will say it was simply an exaggeration or an incorrect statement that was made by someone in the family lol

But if he was caught on tape saying "Yeah we are down to 10 members, we are basically dead on our last legs" then their sentiment would be flipped

[Wiseguy]

@Wiseguy you’re right, I didn’t answer your question. That’s my bad. Your question was; “That begs the question at what point then do you consider a crime family finished? Because it seems, for some of you, as long as there are two made guys still breathing, there's still a family.”

I consider a crime family finished when there is no prosecutable racketeering conspiracy. For example, when those two New Orleans guys were busted in 2010 for illegal gambling, federal prosecutors couldn’t say “Look, this was a racketeering conspiracy pertaining to the New Orleans crime family.”

But with the Los Angeles Mafia, Jimmy Caci could be charged with committing crimes in furtherance of the Los Angeles Mafia racketeering conspiracy, because he committed his crimes under the auspices of such a family, he paid tribute, he exerted his status as a capo in the underworld, and he was intent on continuing the criminal organisation.

I don’t know whether or not the FBI considered the Trafficante crime family a viable threat by 2000, but when Capo Steve Raffa and his crew were indicted, they were prosecuted as part of the Tampa LCN racketeering conspiracy, right? To me, the Trafficante crime family was an active crime family because the FBI and prosecutors alike considered them an ongoing criminal enterprise.

First, in the New Orleans case, prosecutors did attribute it to the Marcello family due to the involvement of the boss, at least one other member, some associates. But they had still written off the family as a whole by that point.

Second, it only takes two people to form a conspiracy. Going by your description above, the Pittsburgh family was still around at least up until associates Robert “Bobby” Iannielli, Rodney Iannelli, and Victor Marchitello were indicted for gambling last February. And Kansas City was still around at least up until 10 people, including members William Cammisano Jr. and James Moretina, were charged with gambling in 2010. And Tampa was still around at least up until when 8 people, including soldier John Mamone, were indicted for drug trafficking in 2004.

Speaking of Tampa, it was also one of the families the FBI was close to writing off in 1992. So, even though a few more cases would come, they weren't recognized by the feds by 2000. If memory serves, by that point the remnants of the family (though still Trafficantes) had affiliated themselves with the Gambinos.

Yeah I agree, I would take someones word from inside the family over an outside investigating agency. Then they will say it was simply an exaggeration or an incorrect statement that was made by someone in the family lol

But if he was caught on tape saying "Yeah we are down to 10 members, we are basically dead on our last legs" then their sentiment would be flipped

We would agree with it then because that would correspond with known (and declining) membership levels over the past 30 years.

But that brings us back to another old question. If there's 30+ members in the Buffalo family, why so quiet? It's the same question continually made about Detroit.

[Cheech]

All good, man. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Angelo Santino]

@Wiseguy you’re right, I didn’t answer your question. That’s my bad. Your question was; “That begs the question at what point then do you consider a crime family finished? Because it seems, for some of you, as long as there are two made guys still breathing, there's still a family.”

I consider a crime family finished when there is no prosecutable racketeering conspiracy. For example, when those two New Orleans guys were busted in 2010 for illegal gambling, federal prosecutors couldn’t say “Look, this was a racketeering conspiracy pertaining to the New Orleans crime family.”

But with the Los Angeles Mafia, Jimmy Caci could be charged with committing crimes in furtherance of the Los Angeles Mafia racketeering conspiracy, because he committed his crimes under the auspices of such a family, he paid tribute, he exerted his status as a capo in the underworld, and he was intent on continuing the criminal organisation.

I don’t know whether or not the FBI considered the Trafficante crime family a viable threat by 2000, but when Capo Steve Raffa and his crew were indicted, they were prosecuted as part of the Tampa LCN racketeering conspiracy, right? To me, the Trafficante crime family was an active crime family because the FBI and prosecutors alike considered them an ongoing criminal enterprise.

I wasn't asked but I'd like to give my opinion.

For starters the definition of viable is "capable of working successfully; feasible." On what grounds? The ability to withstand law enforcement, or bulk up their members or last another 100 years, the amount of criminal output they can achieve quarterly? It's a subjective term and it depends on what context. How viable will the mob be in Philadelphia in 10 years vs 50 years yield different answers. How viable are the Gambinos. Are they working successfully, apparently so, are they capable of doubling their members, yes if they lowered the bar, etc.

I would suggest reframing the term from "viable" to "active": engaging or ready to engage in physically energetic pursuits; pursuing an occupation or activity at a particular place or in a particular way.

A Family is Active as long as they are officially recognized as so by the other Families. That could be 3 do-nothings in San Francisco as was the case in the 70's or the Denver Crew (I know 'glorified crew' is overly used thanks to the Sopranos, but they were largely a very active remaining faction when Pueblo allowed itself to die) or William D'Elia who despite being a one-man crime Family was accepted/respected/consulted with the NY and Philadelphia crime families. That's active as they are a part of a larger criminal freemasonry even if they aren't currently doing any illegal activity.

In 1930 the Birmingham Family was said to be comprised of mostly elderly members and they voted to disband. They were still members and still recognized by NYC and even had a commission rep, but they were no longer an active organization.

[Wiseguy]

I wasn't asked but I'd like to give my opinion.

For starters the definition of viable is "capable of working successfully; feasible." On what grounds? The ability to withstand law enforcement, or bulk up their members or last another 100 years, the amount of criminal output they can achieve quarterly? It's a subjective term and it depends on what context. How viable will the mob be in Philadelphia in 10 years vs 50 years yield different answers. How viable are the Gambinos. Are they working successfully, apparently so, are they capable of doubling their members, yes if they lowered the bar, etc.

I would suggest reframing the term from "viable" to "active": engaging or ready to engage in physically energetic pursuits; pursuing an occupation or activity at a particular place or in a particular way.

A Family is Active as long as they are officially recognized as so by the other Families. That could be 3 do-nothings in San Francisco as was the case in the 70's or the Denver Crew (I know 'glorified crew' is overly used thanks to the Sopranos, but they were largely a very active remaining faction when Pueblo allowed itself to die) or William D'Elia who despite being a one-man crime Family was accepted/respected/consulted with the NY and Philadelphia crime families. That's active as they are a part of a larger criminal freemasonry even if they aren't currently doing any illegal activity.

In 1930 the Birmingham Family was said to be comprised of mostly elderly members and they voted to disband. They were still members and still recognized by NYC and even had a commission rep, but they were no longer an active organization.

In response to you and gohn, while each is free to go with their own criteria for what constitutes an active family, your responses show exactly why I simply defer to the feds. Otherwise we get a dozen different definitions and the bar inevitably gets lower and lower.

[Fughedaboutit]

@Wiseguy you’re right, I didn’t answer your question. That’s my bad. Your question was; “That begs the question at what point then do you consider a crime family finished? Because it seems, for some of you, as long as there are two made guys still breathing, there's still a family.”

I consider a crime family finished when there is no prosecutable racketeering conspiracy. For example, when those two New Orleans guys were busted in 2010 for illegal gambling, federal prosecutors couldn’t say “Look, this was a racketeering conspiracy pertaining to the New Orleans crime family.”

But with the Los Angeles Mafia, Jimmy Caci could be charged with committing crimes in furtherance of the Los Angeles Mafia racketeering conspiracy, because he committed his crimes under the auspices of such a family, he paid tribute, he exerted his status as a capo in the underworld, and he was intent on continuing the criminal organisation.

I don’t know whether or not the FBI considered the Trafficante crime family a viable threat by 2000, but when Capo Steve Raffa and his crew were indicted, they were prosecuted as part of the Tampa LCN racketeering conspiracy, right? To me, the Trafficante crime family was an active crime family because the FBI and prosecutors alike considered them an ongoing criminal enterprise.

First, in the New Orleans case, prosecutors did attribute it to the Marcello family due to the involvement of the boss, at least one other member, some associates. But they had still written off the family as a whole by that point.

Second, it only takes two people to form a conspiracy. Going by your description above, the Pittsburgh family was still around at least up until associates Robert “Bobby” Iannielli, Rodney Iannelli, and Victor Marchitello were indicted for gambling last February. And Kansas City was still around at least up until 10 people, including members William Cammisano Jr. and James Moretina, were charged with gambling in 2010. And Tampa was still around at least up until when 8 people, including soldier John Mamone, were indicted for drug trafficking in 2004.

Speaking of Tampa, it was also one of the families the FBI was close to writing off in 1992. So, even though a few more cases would come, they weren't recognized by the feds by 2000. If memory serves, by that point the remnants of the family (though still Trafficantes) had affiliated themselves with the Gambinos.

Yeah I agree, I would take someones word from inside the family over an outside investigating agency. Then they will say it was simply an exaggeration or an incorrect statement that was made by someone in the family lol

But if he was caught on tape saying "Yeah we are down to 10 members, we are basically dead on our last legs" then their sentiment would be flipped

We would agree with it then because that would correspond with known (and declining) membership levels over the past 30 years.

But that brings us back to another old question. If there's 30+ members in the Buffalo family, why so quiet? It's the same question continually made about Detroit.

Could be the exception to the rule.

[Angelo Santino]

I wasn't asked but I'd like to give my opinion.

For starters the definition of viable is "capable of working successfully; feasible." On what grounds? The ability to withstand law enforcement, or bulk up their members or last another 100 years, the amount of criminal output they can achieve quarterly? It's a subjective term and it depends on what context. How viable will the mob be in Philadelphia in 10 years vs 50 years yield different answers. How viable are the Gambinos. Are they working successfully, apparently so, are they capable of doubling their members, yes if they lowered the bar, etc.

I would suggest reframing the term from "viable" to "active": engaging or ready to engage in physically energetic pursuits; pursuing an occupation or activity at a particular place or in a particular way.

A Family is Active as long as they are officially recognized as so by the other Families. That could be 3 do-nothings in San Francisco as was the case in the 70's or the Denver Crew (I know 'glorified crew' is overly used thanks to the Sopranos, but they were largely a very active remaining faction when Pueblo allowed itself to die) or William D'Elia who despite being a one-man crime Family was accepted/respected/consulted with the NY and Philadelphia crime families. That's active as they are a part of a larger criminal freemasonry even if they aren't currently doing any illegal activity.

In 1930 the Birmingham Family was said to be comprised of mostly elderly members and they voted to disband. They were still members and still recognized by NYC and even had a commission rep, but they were no longer an active organization.

In response to you and gohn, while each is free to go with their own criteria for what constitutes an active family, your responses show exactly why I simply defer to the feds. Otherwise we get a dozen different definitions and the bar inevitably gets lower and lower.

It's not my definition, it's my observations of the way the mob has typically worked after viewing it from it's formation to its transcendence. Scrape away the hierarchy and reduce it to its most basic foundations and it's a criminal mutual assistance group. They typically avoid venturing outside of their safe zones and rely on internal organizational connections.

Let's say a Gambino member and for some reason or another is looking to set up shop in Cleveland. More than likely, that member is going to ask other members who do they know down in Cleveland so they can use them as a point of contact. Eventually he'd be connected with Iacobacci and some arrangement would be made. He's not going to walz into CL and look at Joe Loose and say: "The Feds don't consider you viable so go fuck yourself."

[gohnjotti]

@Wiseguy. I think I didn’t quite explain myself properly. For example, the Miami members in 2000 were named by prosecutors as being part of the Trafficante crime family criminal enterprise. AFAIK, the 2010 New Orleans case was not named by prosecutors as being part of the Marcello crime family racketeering conspiracy. That’s where the difference is.

Even if the feds wrote the Tampa crime family off in 1992, prosecutors in 2000 still had enough evidence to prove the Miami-based crew was still a Tampa crime family operation. I don’t think that was the case in NOLA in 2010, nor was it the case in Pittsburgh last February.

[Pogo The Clown]

The FBI is not going to do a press release and say they were wrong and are investigating it now, but I'm sure they are investigating.

They did in the early 2000s when the Bonannos had their resurgence under Massino. They admitted that they made a mistake in reducing their survallance of the family and then merging the Bonanno and Colombos squads in the early 1990s. As a result they gave the Bonannos their own squad again.


I'm not holding my breath on the same thing happening in regards to Buffalo.

A Family is Active as long as they are officially recognized as so by the other Families. That could be 3 do-nothings in San Francisco as was the case in the 70's or the Denver Crew (I know 'glorified crew' is overly used thanks to the Sopranos, but they were largely a very active remaining faction when Pueblo allowed itself to die) or William D'Elia who despite being a one-man crime Family was accepted/respected/consulted with the NY and Philadelphia crime families. That's active as they are a part of a larger criminal freemasonry even if they aren't currently doing any illegal activity.

I think it is a difference between recognizing cosa nostra members Vs. recognizing a family. Some informants have talked about this very situation.


Angelo Lonardo testified in the 80s how there was "no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed." Even though he knew there were still living members, that John Tronolone was the Boss who had dealings with NY and other families. The remaining members were still recognized cosa nostra members but Lonardo considered the Cleveland family itsef as finished.


Ralph Natale said something similiar when he talked about how Billy D'Elia was the last member left in Scranton. Philly still recognized D'Elia as a cosa nostra member and delt with him but evidently Natale considered the Buflino family itself as done.


Jimmy Frattiano said something simliar about SF in his book. How in the late 70s he said 'there is no OC in SF. just 4 old guy's with Lanza" as he set up shop in the city. Lanza and co. were still cosa nostra members but evidently Frattiano no longer considered the family to still be around.


We also having Michael Franzese saying how there are only 9 families remaining even though I'm sure he knew there were still living members in other cities.


Pogo

[Moscone65]

Wiseguy, so you don’t consider Kansas City as an active family In 2010? Why? If there is 9-10 made guys and a couple of dozen associates working for them, that is still a viable family. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence saying that there’s is no heirarchy? No. Do they have wiretaps or other evidence proving there is a heirarchy, no. But it’s safe to assume there could have been an active family there in 2010. If anything, all those guys charged back then have gotten out by now. In fact I k is a few of them, that are doing quite well. No clue if they got made or not, but I hardly believe they went fully legit just like that. Once a criminal in their 30’s or more, they will likely always be a criminal. Anyways, my point is, look at the musitanos. They are a small family in danger of going extinct. Most estimates have them at half a dozen made guys and a couple dozen or so associates. But they are still considered an active family are they not?

[Fughedaboutit]

The FBI is not going to do a press release and say they were wrong and are investigating it now, but I'm sure they are investigating.

They did in the early 2000s when the Bonannos had their resurgence under Massino. They admitted that they made a mistake in reducing their survallance of the family and then merging the Bonanno and Colombos squads in the early 1990s. As a result they gave the Bonannos their own squad again.


I'm not holding my breath on the same thing happening in regards to Buffalo.

A Family is Active as long as they are officially recognized as so by the other Families. That could be 3 do-nothings in San Francisco as was the case in the 70's or the Denver Crew (I know 'glorified crew' is overly used thanks to the Sopranos, but they were largely a very active remaining faction when Pueblo allowed itself to die) or William D'Elia who despite being a one-man crime Family was accepted/respected/consulted with the NY and Philadelphia crime families. That's active as they are a part of a larger criminal freemasonry even if they aren't currently doing any illegal activity.

I think it is a difference between recognizing cosa nostra members Vs. recognizing a family. Some informants have talked about this very situation.


Angelo Lonardo testified in the 80s how there was "no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed." Even though he knew there were still living members, that John Tronolone was the Boss who had dealings with NY and other families. The remaining members were still recognized cosa nostra members but Lonardo considered the Cleveland family itsef as finished.


Ralph Natale said something similiar when he talked about how Billy D'Elia was the last member left in Scranton. Philly still recognized D'Elia as a cosa nostra member and delt with him but evidently Natale considered the Buflino family itself as done.


Jimmy Frattiano said something simliar about SF in his book. How in the late 70s he said 'there is no OC in SF. just 4 old guy's with Lanza" as he set up shop in the city. Lanza and co. were still cosa nostra members but evidently Frattiano no longer considered the family to still be around.


We also having Michael Franzese saying how there are only 9 families remaining even though I'm sure he knew there were still living members in other cities.


Pogo

Yes because saying one of the big 5 had a reduced squad merged with another family and they are ramping back up is totally the same as saying we consider a family defunct and now active and we are again investigating.

I wouldn't hold my breath to that, either.

[Angelo Santino]

The FBI is not going to do a press release and say they were wrong and are investigating it now, but I'm sure they are investigating.

They did in the early 2000s when the Bonannos had their resurgence under Massino. They admitted that they made a mistake in reducing their survallance of the family and then merging the Bonanno and Colombos squads in the early 1990s. As a result they gave the Bonannos their own squad again.


I'm not holding my breath on the same thing happening in regards to Buffalo.

A Family is Active as long as they are officially recognized as so by the other Families. That could be 3 do-nothings in San Francisco as was the case in the 70's or the Denver Crew (I know 'glorified crew' is overly used thanks to the Sopranos, but they were largely a very active remaining faction when Pueblo allowed itself to die) or William D'Elia who despite being a one-man crime Family was accepted/respected/consulted with the NY and Philadelphia crime families. That's active as they are a part of a larger criminal freemasonry even if they aren't currently doing any illegal activity.

I think it is a difference between recognizing cosa nostra members Vs. recognizing a family. Some informants have talked about this very situation.


Angelo Lonardo testified in the 80s how there was "no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed." Even though he knew there were still living members, that John Tronolone was the Boss who had dealings with NY and other families. The remaining members were still recognized cosa nostra members but Lonardo considered the Cleveland family itsef as finished.


Ralph Natale said something similiar when he talked about how Billy D'Elia was the last member left in Scranton. Philly still recognized D'Elia as a cosa nostra member and delt with him but evidently Natale considered the Buflino family itself as done.


Jimmy Frattiano said something simliar about SF in his book. How in the late 70s he said 'there is no OC in SF. just 4 old guy's with Lanza" as he set up shop in the city. Lanza and co. were still cosa nostra members but evidently Frattiano no longer considered the family to still be around.


We also having Michael Franzese saying how there are only 9 families remaining even though I'm sure he knew there were still living members in other cities.


Pogo

Yes, but after the indictment, they didn't come to Massino's door and announce they made a mistake and were going to focus on him more. This investigation was carried on discreetly until they had enough to bring a case. With Buffalo, let's wait and see. But question, if the FBI does come out and say they made a mistake, would you be open to accepting that?

I know you know me well enough to know that I don't need for anything to be any which way. I thought Buffalo was long gone until these recent revelations. I have the same questions you do: if so, where's the members? Where's the activity? Given that Canada is like 1920's prohibition with lax legal forces along with the elevation of Violi who is based there, lead to the hypothesis that maybe Buffalo has more activity there. I don't think that's too much of a stretch.

As far as Family recognition, when there was a Commission a family was recognized as long as it was Active. Jimmy Fratianno commenting about SF being finished was his opinion, and rightly so given that it had 4 members. It's like working at a chain restaurant where 5 branches bring in 40K monthly and the 6th branch only brings in 10K. People of the other branches might say the 6th branch is finished, meaning it will be closing down soon. But does that mean the 6th branch is immediately severed or is there a protocol for that? Angelo Lonardo was around since the 40's and to see the organization go from 60 members to less than 4, it's no different than the CEO of Ponderosa seeing his chain restaurant decline from 40 locations to 4, he'd say it's finished. But it's not finished right then and there before he says so. Ralph Natale- D'Elia same example. The Families of SF, CL and Scranton will be Inactive when the Family either disbands or NY no longer recognizes it. They could give a shit what the FBI thinks of their status. We as mob researchers and enthusiasts need to recognize it.

Why does it matter? Because even though SF had 4 members, CL 4 and Scranton 1, these people were still recognized as Families just like your shitty Colombo capos are recognized by Genovese ones, there has to be recognition. And given what I already covered about how these guys move about, think of Joey Merlino trying to connect with LA and he meets up with Fratto (fucking Fratto.) Rather than actually make the right connections he went with who he knew. That's the glue that holds the LCN together, made, not made, hierarchy or not. And having Families in other cities allows for connections/conduits to those areas. D'Elia is really the poster boy for how Active a Family can be with as few members as possible: the answer is one. It's an extreme scenario but it did occur. It's like accurately stating that Mafia members are Italian and that the Gambinos are the most conservative Sicilian in nature and someone counters my point with Andy Knapik. Or tears at my 'conservative Sicilian' argument with examples of not only Knapkik but Stanfa straightening out Veasey or Rizzuto allegedly making Desjardens and Fernandez? There's always exemptions.