THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 8:31 pm

Don_Peppino wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 4:11 pm

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 11:49 am

Don_Peppino wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 9:42 am I have another theory with no real evidence or maybe just a thought.
Pertaining to the historical rankings, most researchers and LE believe the Genovese Family is the ivy league and has pretty much always been considered the top Family.

Great Q.
Ive always wondered the same.
IMO they act the least like street toughs, and the most like, well, Italians.
You offend them, they smile, walk away, but will fuck you up later.

The Bonannos with Borello, Colombos with Teddy, Gambino's with Lanni, Lukes with Pennisi/Guzzo.
All 'in your face' guys. Wont back down. Opposite of a gentleman.

In my head the Westside just smiles at you and fucks you up later.

Jimmy Blue eyes Alo.

That's a good point. Rothstein taught Luciano a certain business etiquette. "Smile now, and get them later".
Now if you go back in time (lets generalize circa 1960s), two other Families (Lukes and Gambinos) operated closer to how the the Weat Side did vs The Bonannos and Profaci-Colombos.
Why??? Well, Three Fingers Brown and to lesser extent Don Carlo were proteges of Luciano. Although, the Lukes and Genoveses have a similar origin, I think Luciano's philosophy was influential on them until the end of the Tony Ducks reign. In the Gambinos, you'll see this trend with Carlo and Big Paul but you also have the murder inc. influence which is where the Gotti era comes in.
Now the Bonannos and Colombos have been more clannish, with Bonannos being more mafia-like and Colombos integrating more americanized gangsterisms to the mix with the likes of the Gallos/Persicos etc. Bonanno and Profaci Families were the furtherest from that Rothstein influence. It does appear that later on, Joe Bonanno tried to incorporate Luciano's practices however.

And of course, a major piece of their supremecy is the fact that the got a larger share of the best rackets circa 1931. In part due to the removal of Rothstein.

Even after Rothstein the Genovese family always had the closest ties to Jewish gangsters down through the years.

jimmybeam12 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 03, 2025 1:07 am Belief with no evidence: one of the reasons that the current Genovese admin (primarily, Barney) hasn't been indicted for such a long time is that they no longer demand any significant amount of money from their underlings/capos/crews. They are well set enough (real estate, legitimate business interests etc.) that they no longer rely on the "street dollars" from their crews.

The absence of illegitimate money flows significantly reduces potential points of attacks from LE (e.g., untaxed income, cooperators). Rather than being some type of super sophisticated criminal masterminds, they are basically no longer involved in any significant crimes (not even indirectly). They are now in it mostly for power, respect, maybe a weird sense of duty.

Family admins that are not that well off, i.e., where the bosses are in it for the money, get indicted far more frequently (Colombos, Bonannos).

Indicators (not evidence):
- Anthony A stated, that already in the early 2000s, the Springfield Crew didn't really have to pay any regular tribute to NY apart from some symbolical gifts for Christmas; why would the Genovese treat their Springfield crew different from any other of their crews in that regard?
- He also stated, that the whole admin even at that time was so rich that they didn't really care about the street dollar
- Even with the Luccheses, the money flowing up the chain seemed to be primarily focused on a few thousand dollars of Christmas tribute, which was sometimes coming directly out the captains' pockets (rather than from individual soldiers)

In short: the amount of money flowing up the chain is generally far less then generally assumed. Earnings from individual rackets beat earnings based on hierarchy.

Don_Peppino wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 4:11 pm

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 11:49 am

Don_Peppino wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 9:42 am I have another theory with no real evidence or maybe just a thought.
Pertaining to the historical rankings, most researchers and LE believe the Genovese Family is the ivy league and has pretty much always been considered the top Family.

Great Q.
Ive always wondered the same.
IMO they act the least like street toughs, and the most like, well, Italians.
You offend them, they smile, walk away, but will fuck you up later.

The Bonannos with Borello, Colombos with Teddy, Gambino's with Lanni, Lukes with Pennisi/Guzzo.
All 'in your face' guys. Wont back down. Opposite of a gentleman.

In my head the Westside just smiles at you and fucks you up later.

Jimmy Blue eyes Alo.

That's a good point. Rothstein taught Luciano a certain business etiquette. "Smile now, and get them later".
Now if you go back in time (lets generalize circa 1960s), two other Families (Lukes and Gambinos) operated closer to how the the Weat Side did vs The Bonannos and Profaci-Colombos.
Why??? Well, Three Fingers Brown and to lesser extent Don Carlo were proteges of Luciano. Although, the Lukes and Genoveses have a similar origin, I think Luciano's philosophy was influential on them until the end of the Tony Ducks reign. In the Gambinos, you'll see this trend with Carlo and Big Paul but you also have the murder inc. influence which is where the Gotti era comes in.
Now the Bonannos and Colombos have been more clannish, with Bonannos being more mafia-like and Colombos integrating more americanized gangsterisms to the mix with the likes of the Gallos/Persicos etc. Bonanno and Profaci Families were the furtherest from that Rothstein influence. It does appear that later on, Joe Bonanno tried to incorporate Luciano's practices however.

And of course, a major piece of their supremecy is the fact that the got a larger share of the best rackets circa 1931. In part due to the removal of Rothstein.

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 11:49 am

Don_Peppino wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 9:42 am I have another theory with no real evidence or maybe just a thought.
Pertaining to the historical rankings, most researchers and LE believe the Genovese Family is the ivy league and has pretty much always been considered the top Family.

Great Q.
Ive always wondered the same.
IMO they act the least like street toughs, and the most like, well, Italians.
You offend them, they smile, walk away, but will fuck you up later.

The Bonannos with Borello, Colombos with Teddy, Gambino's with Lanni, Lukes with Pennisi/Guzzo.
All 'in your face' guys. Wont back down. Opposite of a gentleman.

In my head the Westside just smiles at you and fucks you up later.

Jimmy Blue eyes Alo.

cavita wrote: ↑Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:02 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:54 pm

B. wrote: ↑Mon Mar 31, 2025 11:53 am I forgot about that map -- thanks for sharing it again. What year was it from?

I'm curious about the Philadelphia 'ndrangheta ties given there is a long history of Calabrians in the local Family, many of which were likely Camorristi / 'ndranghetisti originally and maintained close ties to Calabria into the 1970s. There is the old newspaper reference to Scarfo having cousins in the Siderno group as well. I doubt any current Philly members are tied to the 'ndrangheta (except in passing, at most) but I do wonder if an 'ndrangheta presence goes back to the older generations of Calabrian Philly members.

A lot more Boston Camorra ties than I realized too. The Springfield one isn't surprising as there seem to have been ongoing ties between the Genovese crew and Campania even a couple decades ago and a lot of immigrants going back and forth.

I must have overlooked Altoona having ties to the Bagheria Family, same with NJ having connections to Bagheria. That's intriguing. Western PA did have a lot of early ties to the Bagheria area so maybe the Altoona presence is tied to that.

Some of the references on there are substantial and long-term (DeCavalcantes/Ribera, LA+NY/Passo di Rigano/Torretta, Detroit/Terrasini, etc.) but I wonder how many of these connections are fairly fleeting or are represented by one guy. Like the NYC/Santa Maria di Gesu reference could be to Roberto Settineri who is a US-based Santa Maria member affiliated with the Gambinos. NYC/Villabate too -- there were strong historic ties to the Colombos that withered and seemingly died after Joe Profaci's era. Mandala did visit NYC, so is it referring to that visit alone or are there more substantial, ongoing connections between Villabate and NYC in modern times? The Napolis of the Gambino Family were from there and very close to the Villabate leadership but they are all dead now though some of the sons were at least associates who probably still have ties.

There are also other international connections we know of that aren't included on the map but again I'm not sure the exact year or what these particular references represent in full. Like the Sciacca Family definitely has a presence in the United States that deserves inclusion on the map and other Agrigento groups like Porto Empedocle and Castrofilippo might as well.

From what I recall, it reflects Italian LE investigations from the 2000s, as some of the actual investigations that the map derives from were discussed in Francesco Forgione’s 2010 book “Mafia Export”.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:09 am ext/dmzx/imageupload/files/ddc254c56abb ... 27e4c1.jpg

I know that you’re a big fan of the Italian series “Gomorrah”, so you may already be aware that much of that series drew inspiration from actual events surrounding the Licciardi clan and the Alleanza di Secondigliano. These organizations were, of course, based in the northern suburbs of Napoli, an area near towns with a long Camorra history and strong immigration ties to cities like Chicago and Boston. Unsurprisingly, Italian LE had intel that affiliates of those organizations were at one time active in… Chicago and Boston (one of the things they were doing in Chicago, for example, was running clothing boutiques that served to move bootleg/smuggled clothing).

This was most likely the fencing operation in Chicago years ago that saw the arrest of Alphonse Mitria?

Don_Peppino wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 9:42 am I have another theory with no real evidence or maybe just a thought.
Pertaining to the historical rankings, most researchers and LE believe the Genovese Family is the ivy league and has pretty much always been considered the top Family.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:54 pm

B. wrote: ↑Mon Mar 31, 2025 11:53 am I forgot about that map -- thanks for sharing it again. What year was it from?

I'm curious about the Philadelphia 'ndrangheta ties given there is a long history of Calabrians in the local Family, many of which were likely Camorristi / 'ndranghetisti originally and maintained close ties to Calabria into the 1970s. There is the old newspaper reference to Scarfo having cousins in the Siderno group as well. I doubt any current Philly members are tied to the 'ndrangheta (except in passing, at most) but I do wonder if an 'ndrangheta presence goes back to the older generations of Calabrian Philly members.

A lot more Boston Camorra ties than I realized too. The Springfield one isn't surprising as there seem to have been ongoing ties between the Genovese crew and Campania even a couple decades ago and a lot of immigrants going back and forth.

I must have overlooked Altoona having ties to the Bagheria Family, same with NJ having connections to Bagheria. That's intriguing. Western PA did have a lot of early ties to the Bagheria area so maybe the Altoona presence is tied to that.

Some of the references on there are substantial and long-term (DeCavalcantes/Ribera, LA+NY/Passo di Rigano/Torretta, Detroit/Terrasini, etc.) but I wonder how many of these connections are fairly fleeting or are represented by one guy. Like the NYC/Santa Maria di Gesu reference could be to Roberto Settineri who is a US-based Santa Maria member affiliated with the Gambinos. NYC/Villabate too -- there were strong historic ties to the Colombos that withered and seemingly died after Joe Profaci's era. Mandala did visit NYC, so is it referring to that visit alone or are there more substantial, ongoing connections between Villabate and NYC in modern times? The Napolis of the Gambino Family were from there and very close to the Villabate leadership but they are all dead now though some of the sons were at least associates who probably still have ties.

There are also other international connections we know of that aren't included on the map but again I'm not sure the exact year or what these particular references represent in full. Like the Sciacca Family definitely has a presence in the United States that deserves inclusion on the map and other Agrigento groups like Porto Empedocle and Castrofilippo might as well.

From what I recall, it reflects Italian LE investigations from the 2000s, as some of the actual investigations that the map derives from were discussed in Francesco Forgione’s 2010 book “Mafia Export”.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:09 am ext/dmzx/imageupload/files/ddc254c56abb ... 27e4c1.jpg

I know that you’re a big fan of the Italian series “Gomorrah”, so you may already be aware that much of that series drew inspiration from actual events surrounding the Licciardi clan and the Alleanza di Secondigliano. These organizations were, of course, based in the northern suburbs of Napoli, an area near towns with a long Camorra history and strong immigration ties to cities like Chicago and Boston. Unsurprisingly, Italian LE had intel that affiliates of those organizations were at one time active in… Chicago and Boston (one of the things they were doing in Chicago, for example, was running clothing boutiques that served to move bootleg/smuggled clothing).

B. wrote: ↑Mon Mar 31, 2025 11:53 am I forgot about that map -- thanks for sharing it again. What year was it from?

I'm curious about the Philadelphia 'ndrangheta ties given there is a long history of Calabrians in the local Family, many of which were likely Camorristi / 'ndranghetisti originally and maintained close ties to Calabria into the 1970s. There is the old newspaper reference to Scarfo having cousins in the Siderno group as well. I doubt any current Philly members are tied to the 'ndrangheta (except in passing, at most) but I do wonder if an 'ndrangheta presence goes back to the older generations of Calabrian Philly members.

A lot more Boston Camorra ties than I realized too. The Springfield one isn't surprising as there seem to have been ongoing ties between the Genovese crew and Campania even a couple decades ago and a lot of immigrants going back and forth.

I must have overlooked Altoona having ties to the Bagheria Family, same with NJ having connections to Bagheria. That's intriguing. Western PA did have a lot of early ties to the Bagheria area so maybe the Altoona presence is tied to that.

Some of the references on there are substantial and long-term (DeCavalcantes/Ribera, LA+NY/Passo di Rigano/Torretta, Detroit/Terrasini, etc.) but I wonder how many of these connections are fairly fleeting or are represented by one guy. Like the NYC/Santa Maria di Gesu reference could be to Roberto Settineri who is a US-based Santa Maria member affiliated with the Gambinos. NYC/Villabate too -- there were strong historic ties to the Colombos that withered and seemingly died after Joe Profaci's era. Mandala did visit NYC, so is it referring to that visit alone or are there more substantial, ongoing connections between Villabate and NYC in modern times? The Napolis of the Gambino Family were from there and very close to the Villabate leadership but they are all dead now though some of the sons were at least associates who probably still have ties.

There are also other international connections we know of that aren't included on the map but again I'm not sure the exact year or what these particular references represent in full. Like the Sciacca Family definitely has a presence in the United States that deserves inclusion on the map and other Agrigento groups like Porto Empedocle and Castrofilippo might as well.

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:09 am ext/dmzx/imageupload/files/ddc254c56abb ... 27e4c1.jpg

JoelTurner wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 1:51 pm This ties into what’s being said about small families, I believe that there were several families that were absorbed by Buffalo. Looking at some of the cities where they had a presence: Utica - Frankfort, Rochester, Auburn, Syracuse, Erie, Etc

These cities weren’t exactly close. For example, the distance between Utica & Buffalo (~200 Miles) is greater than the distance between NYC & Providence (~180 Miles)

Plus Valachi names Utica as a family