Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

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Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by Boatdrinks » Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:22 am

An enjoyable thread, with some great arguments, ideas, and theories.
For those who are still unsure what happened at the end, there is a very long and detailed piece on the internet, that breaks down the final scenes, and provides a full explanation. It is called Master of Sopranos.
Before I saw this MoS, I myself was in a bit of denial. I now accept the explanation laid out by MoS.


I would like to put forward some ideas of my own about how the event occurred. I agree with the argument about Butch. It should be remembered that he first said "decapitate". I think this was always his intention but how did he do it? It should be remembered, that AJ worked for Little Carmine. All that had to be done, is to follow him. The smart move of course, is to walk in before him.

I remember watching the final episode for the first time. I could see in real-time that the episode was soon going to finish. I didn't know what was going to happen. Yes! Meadow parking was so intense!

The black screen!

I was shocked!

Eventually, I accepted it! Bobby was right!

Let me make an argument for why the end was filmed as it was. It will be recalled, that when the final scenes were filmed, it was a circus. Huge numbers of people turning up at the shoot. In real-life, you could not film scenes with actors walking around with huge amounts of ketchup on them, and then expect this to be kept secret. This is why when James Gandolfini was asked what happened, he said that nothing happened.

If fans of Tony Soprano want another ending, then they can just imagine T driving across NYC to Brooklyn and buying a bar.

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by Jeff » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:27 pm

The interview where David Chase made these comments is from the January 2019 book The Soprano Sessions. (highly recommended for fans of the show). Not sure why the nypost is discussing it now as if it's new. In the interview Chase says he originally intended for Tony to die at the end but changed his mind. Instead he went for a more ambiguous ending. He says that Tony could have died in the finale. The point of the ending is that Tony and his family have to appreciate the good times while they last. Whether he get killed that day at Holsten's or another day, it will happen eventually (or he end up in the prison). For Tony, even an innocent family dinner at a diner is potentially dangerous for him. Chase was attempting to put the viewer in Tony's shoes.

Thus, that aspect of the ending (did he or did be not die?) is supposed to be open ended (but the message or theme of the ending is not and should matter far more than whether he died or not). Portions of the interview where Chase discusses Tony's death (without full context/explanation of Chase explaining he changed his mind) were leaked/published before the book's release. This resulted in many, including the nypost over 1.5 years after its publication, to conclude that Chase was acknowledging Tony's death (this is clearly what the interviewers in the Sopranos Sessions first thought as well). Of course some will say Chase accidentally slipped up in revealing Tony died and then had to backtrack. So I guess even his explanation of the ending includes some ambiguity ha. Either way, worth the read IMO.

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by Grouchy Sinatra » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:50 pm

JeremyTheJew wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:32 pm
Grouchy Sinatra wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:41 pm I don't think Larry flipped. He gave the cops Jackie Aprile's name, who's dead, for the Willie Overall murder, when it was Tony who actually did it. Tony was thinking the worst because the FBI was digging up Overall's body and Larry had gotten taken in at the Cleaver premiere party. Once Tony and everyone found out Larry gave the feds Jackie's name, they were relieved.
Larry got taken in at the cleaver premier party??
I missed that too...
Yep. Right after he was explaining to a group of people that the actors don't make up their own lines. People write it for them. Even DeNiro, the girl told him.

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by JeremyTheJew » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:32 pm

Grouchy Sinatra wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:41 pm I don't think Larry flipped. He gave the cops Jackie Aprile's name, who's dead, for the Willie Overall murder, when it was Tony who actually did it. Tony was thinking the worst because the FBI was digging up Overall's body and Larry had gotten taken in at the Cleaver premiere party. Once Tony and everyone found out Larry gave the feds Jackie's name, they were relieved.
Larry got taken in at the cleaver premier party??
I missed that too...

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by Grouchy Sinatra » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:41 pm

I don't think Larry flipped. He gave the cops Jackie Aprile's name, who's dead, for the Willie Overall murder, when it was Tony who actually did it. Tony was thinking the worst because the FBI was digging up Overall's body and Larry had gotten taken in at the Cleaver premiere party. Once Tony and everyone found out Larry gave the feds Jackie's name, they were relieved.

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by JeremyTheJew » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:39 pm

NJStreetBoss wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:20 pm
JeremyTheJew wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:53 pm
NJStreetBoss wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:06 pm
JeremyTheJew wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:34 pm
Wiseguy wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:13 pm
JeremyTheJew wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:03 pm
Pogo The Clown wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:56 pm Lots of guys flipped on the show. Carlo Gervasi, Ray, Curto, Larry Barese, all Capos. Plus Big Pussy Bompensiero and Gene Pontecorvo(sp) who were Soldiers. Possibly Capo Jimmy Altieri as well. They also had a Lupprotozzi Capo flipped in the 5th season (forgot his name).


Pogo
Are u sure that Larry barese flipped??

Iv been watching YouTube for 5 hours now on sopranos...
But regarding Larry idk esp bc he had his nephew and son involved after
And yes pussy I forgotten about. But has any of them turncoats actually take anyone down??
The Larry Barese thing was brief and involved him giving the location of the body of Tony's first murder. Some black guy. But he did steer them away from Tony, pointing the finger at Jackie Aprile. It was left at that and the viewer gets the impression that Barese did flip.
Ohhhhhh

Yes now I remember... They were at the summer cottage lamming it incase Tony was gonna get picked up right??

Ya I remember now. But is that the only thing he gave them...??

I remmember then saying he still was stand up or something
Not sure what season it was when Larry may have flipped, but he was in Season 6A when Chris and Carmine Jr. were looking for investors for CLEVER and he was in Season 5 while at Ray Curto's birthday party. Though I agree that nothing came from these informants.

I always questioned where certain characters went like:

Albert Barese - he disappeared pretty much.

Perry Annunziata - (Tonys driver for 2 episodes)?

What about the guy Johnny Sack beat the hell out of and then pissed on him lol??

WALDEN - guy comes at the end with no intro, just shows up and has the best (hands down) whacking in the series. I mean i cheered when Phil took that shot while chatting with his wife.
"Tell Dr. Iaconna to call the god damn pharmacy, i should have 60 day ............. BOOOOOM"

BENNY- he would be Boss right now in 2020
Did u ever catch Vito in the bakery shop in the first season where Chris shot the guy at the register??
I think they called him Gino
Yup... NEXT TIME YOU SEE MY FACE, SHOW ME SOME RESPECT
Funny but I actually said that quote at work

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by NJStreetBoss » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:20 pm

JeremyTheJew wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:53 pm
NJStreetBoss wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:06 pm
JeremyTheJew wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:34 pm
Wiseguy wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:13 pm
JeremyTheJew wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:03 pm
Pogo The Clown wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:56 pm Lots of guys flipped on the show. Carlo Gervasi, Ray, Curto, Larry Barese, all Capos. Plus Big Pussy Bompensiero and Gene Pontecorvo(sp) who were Soldiers. Possibly Capo Jimmy Altieri as well. They also had a Lupprotozzi Capo flipped in the 5th season (forgot his name).


Pogo
Are u sure that Larry barese flipped??

Iv been watching YouTube for 5 hours now on sopranos...
But regarding Larry idk esp bc he had his nephew and son involved after
And yes pussy I forgotten about. But has any of them turncoats actually take anyone down??
The Larry Barese thing was brief and involved him giving the location of the body of Tony's first murder. Some black guy. But he did steer them away from Tony, pointing the finger at Jackie Aprile. It was left at that and the viewer gets the impression that Barese did flip.
Ohhhhhh

Yes now I remember... They were at the summer cottage lamming it incase Tony was gonna get picked up right??

Ya I remember now. But is that the only thing he gave them...??

I remmember then saying he still was stand up or something
Not sure what season it was when Larry may have flipped, but he was in Season 6A when Chris and Carmine Jr. were looking for investors for CLEVER and he was in Season 5 while at Ray Curto's birthday party. Though I agree that nothing came from these informants.

I always questioned where certain characters went like:

Albert Barese - he disappeared pretty much.

Perry Annunziata - (Tonys driver for 2 episodes)?

What about the guy Johnny Sack beat the hell out of and then pissed on him lol??

WALDEN - guy comes at the end with no intro, just shows up and has the best (hands down) whacking in the series. I mean i cheered when Phil took that shot while chatting with his wife.
"Tell Dr. Iaconna to call the god damn pharmacy, i should have 60 day ............. BOOOOOM"

BENNY- he would be Boss right now in 2020
Did u ever catch Vito in the bakery shop in the first season where Chris shot the guy at the register??
I think they called him Gino
Yup... NEXT TIME YOU SEE MY FACE, SHOW ME SOME RESPECT

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by JeremyTheJew » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:53 pm

NJStreetBoss wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:06 pm
JeremyTheJew wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:34 pm
Wiseguy wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:13 pm
JeremyTheJew wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:03 pm
Pogo The Clown wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:56 pm Lots of guys flipped on the show. Carlo Gervasi, Ray, Curto, Larry Barese, all Capos. Plus Big Pussy Bompensiero and Gene Pontecorvo(sp) who were Soldiers. Possibly Capo Jimmy Altieri as well. They also had a Lupprotozzi Capo flipped in the 5th season (forgot his name).


Pogo
Are u sure that Larry barese flipped??

Iv been watching YouTube for 5 hours now on sopranos...
But regarding Larry idk esp bc he had his nephew and son involved after
And yes pussy I forgotten about. But has any of them turncoats actually take anyone down??
The Larry Barese thing was brief and involved him giving the location of the body of Tony's first murder. Some black guy. But he did steer them away from Tony, pointing the finger at Jackie Aprile. It was left at that and the viewer gets the impression that Barese did flip.
Ohhhhhh

Yes now I remember... They were at the summer cottage lamming it incase Tony was gonna get picked up right??

Ya I remember now. But is that the only thing he gave them...??

I remmember then saying he still was stand up or something
Not sure what season it was when Larry may have flipped, but he was in Season 6A when Chris and Carmine Jr. were looking for investors for CLEVER and he was in Season 5 while at Ray Curto's birthday party. Though I agree that nothing came from these informants.

I always questioned where certain characters went like:

Albert Barese - he disappeared pretty much.

Perry Annunziata - (Tonys driver for 2 episodes)?

What about the guy Johnny Sack beat the hell out of and then pissed on him lol??

WALDEN - guy comes at the end with no intro, just shows up and has the best (hands down) whacking in the series. I mean i cheered when Phil took that shot while chatting with his wife.
"Tell Dr. Iaconna to call the god damn pharmacy, i should have 60 day ............. BOOOOOM"

BENNY- he would be Boss right now in 2020
Did u ever catch Vito in the bakery shop in the first season where Chris shot the guy at the register??
I think they called him Gino

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by JeremyTheJew » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:51 pm

You know...

I wonder if this was another scenario possibly taken from real life??

Someone flipping bit steering info wrong??

Don't think it's really work out but it's possible

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by NJStreetBoss » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:06 pm

JeremyTheJew wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:34 pm
Wiseguy wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:13 pm
JeremyTheJew wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:03 pm
Pogo The Clown wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:56 pm Lots of guys flipped on the show. Carlo Gervasi, Ray, Curto, Larry Barese, all Capos. Plus Big Pussy Bompensiero and Gene Pontecorvo(sp) who were Soldiers. Possibly Capo Jimmy Altieri as well. They also had a Lupprotozzi Capo flipped in the 5th season (forgot his name).


Pogo
Are u sure that Larry barese flipped??

Iv been watching YouTube for 5 hours now on sopranos...
But regarding Larry idk esp bc he had his nephew and son involved after
And yes pussy I forgotten about. But has any of them turncoats actually take anyone down??
The Larry Barese thing was brief and involved him giving the location of the body of Tony's first murder. Some black guy. But he did steer them away from Tony, pointing the finger at Jackie Aprile. It was left at that and the viewer gets the impression that Barese did flip.
Ohhhhhh

Yes now I remember... They were at the summer cottage lamming it incase Tony was gonna get picked up right??

Ya I remember now. But is that the only thing he gave them...??

I remmember then saying he still was stand up or something
Not sure what season it was when Larry may have flipped, but he was in Season 6A when Chris and Carmine Jr. were looking for investors for CLEVER and he was in Season 5 while at Ray Curto's birthday party. Though I agree that nothing came from these informants.

I always questioned where certain characters went like:

Albert Barese - he disappeared pretty much.

Perry Annunziata - (Tonys driver for 2 episodes)?

What about the guy Johnny Sack beat the hell out of and then pissed on him lol??

WALDEN - guy comes at the end with no intro, just shows up and has the best (hands down) whacking in the series. I mean i cheered when Phil took that shot while chatting with his wife.
"Tell Dr. Iaconna to call the god damn pharmacy, i should have 60 day ............. BOOOOOM"

BENNY- he would be Boss right now in 2020

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by B. » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:07 pm

Haha yeah, how he refused to let the make-up crew and hairstylists do his hair and would only do it himself. Also he is an obsessive compulsive germophobe just like Paulie.

There was also the time he demanded to have one of his lines changed which was unheard of, as Chase was very strict about the writing. After the cop commits suicide, Tony Soprano talks to the madam and she refers to Paulie as a "psycho". The original line referred to him as a "bully" and Tony Sirico was very upset about this for whatever reason. He was completely fine with them using "psycho" instead. Too funny.

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by Grouchy Sinatra » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:02 pm

The story about Sirico spraying his hair for like 5 minutes.

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by B. » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:07 pm

It was intentionally designed like a murder scene, no doubt. I can't argue with the God of the entire series if he says Tony dies, though I wouldn't put it past Chase to get poetic with a phrase like "death" either. I'm mainly going with what I think makes for the most compelling story... Chase deliberately gave it a "choose your own adventure" (or "Tony's adventure", rather) vibe.

I still remember watching that episode when it debuted and watching Meadow try to park the car was some of the most tense, stressful television I've ever seen.

I recommend the Talking Sopranos podcast with Imperioli and Schirripa hosting. It's not super exciting but I enjoy hearing the behind the scenes talk and I always learn something. I mean, they revealed that Tony was originally named "Tommy Soprano" and John Ventimiglia (Artie) was one of the candidates for the role. Imagine if we had watched Artie play "Tommy Soprano"? That blows my mind more than Tony dying or not dying. Also Jerry Stiller was supposed to play Hesh. Imagine that goofball show.

Also the podcast has a ton of great Tony Sirico anecdotes. He's Paulie in real life.

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by JeremyTheJew » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:37 pm

JohnnyS wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:03 pm
B. wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:53 am My belief will always be that Tony mentally decided to flip in the diner and in that way the "cut to black" was the end of the Tony Soprano we all know.

The Kevin Finnerty dream sequence where he's holding the Valachi Papers, the whole premise of the show being about how the life wasn't as honorable as it was when his father was alive, Uncle Junior not remembering the mafia the last time Tony sees him (i.e. it was all for nothing). His buddy Johnny Sack is dead and NYC is going to be a constant threat. Silvio was out of commission, Christopher was dead, he lost faith in Paulie and almost killed him on a boat. Tony liked the money and power, but over the course of the show it's clear that Tony's favorite part of the mafia was hanging with his closest buddies shooting the shit. By the last episode that's over. The scene where Tony's at the vacation house surrounded by bodyguards is depressing.

In the diner he tells his wife that one of his captains is cooperating, so he has prison on his mind to start the whole scene off. The tension and build-up of the diner sequence is Tony's internal dilemma and in the end it shows Tony exactly what matters to him -- his wife and kids. How does he keep them? He flips and "Tony Soprano" as we know him is no more.

Just my interpretation. My biggest complaint is Christopher's death. I would have had Christopher flip first, as it always seemed like a possibility with the drug use, Hollywood fantasies, Adriana murder, etc. I would have closed the show with Tony deciding whether or not to cooperate knowing that Christopher would put him away for life.
That's a really interesting theory. All these years I've been convinced Tony was killed in the diner but I have been seriously questioning it lately.
I agree w you. That post has me still (8 hours now) re watching clips and scenarios of sopranos.

And I'd actually change my opinion if it wasn't for David's quote.

I can reasonably believe anything else after he specifically said DEATH SCENE

Re: Soprano’s ‘Death Scene’

by JohnnyS » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:03 pm

B. wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:53 am My belief will always be that Tony mentally decided to flip in the diner and in that way the "cut to black" was the end of the Tony Soprano we all know.

The Kevin Finnerty dream sequence where he's holding the Valachi Papers, the whole premise of the show being about how the life wasn't as honorable as it was when his father was alive, Uncle Junior not remembering the mafia the last time Tony sees him (i.e. it was all for nothing). His buddy Johnny Sack is dead and NYC is going to be a constant threat. Silvio was out of commission, Christopher was dead, he lost faith in Paulie and almost killed him on a boat. Tony liked the money and power, but over the course of the show it's clear that Tony's favorite part of the mafia was hanging with his closest buddies shooting the shit. By the last episode that's over. The scene where Tony's at the vacation house surrounded by bodyguards is depressing.

In the diner he tells his wife that one of his captains is cooperating, so he has prison on his mind to start the whole scene off. The tension and build-up of the diner sequence is Tony's internal dilemma and in the end it shows Tony exactly what matters to him -- his wife and kids. How does he keep them? He flips and "Tony Soprano" as we know him is no more.

Just my interpretation. My biggest complaint is Christopher's death. I would have had Christopher flip first, as it always seemed like a possibility with the drug use, Hollywood fantasies, Adriana murder, etc. I would have closed the show with Tony deciding whether or not to cooperate knowing that Christopher would put him away for life.
That's a really interesting theory. All these years I've been convinced Tony was killed in the diner but I have been seriously questioning it lately.

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