Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

[SonnyBlackstein]

Wasn't there evidence that said they were still a Bonanno decina in that time period.

Dominick Cicale stated the Montreal decimal still paid tribute to NY post George’s death which, if true, means in name at least, they were certainly still a decina of the family.

This would appear to contradict VR’s above ‘statements’.

[Frank]

Wasn't there evidence that said they were still a Bonanno decina in that time period.

Dominick Cicale stated the Montreal decimal still paid tribute to NY post George’s death which, if true, means in name at least, they were certainly still a decina of the family.

This would appear to contradict VR’s above ‘statements’.

Yes. And Vito was told to pay a higher tribute. Massino sent word to Vito about Vitale turning rat. Also wasn't some members of the Montreal Decina disappointed that nobody was chosen as Sciaccas replacement during Vitale's first visit to Montreal, after the Sciacca hit. I guess it could be possible that they broke from the Bonannos after some of these events. But I came away thinking that it looked like they were never the sixth Family and always remained a Bonanno decina. Probably with the Bonanno leadership constantly getting busted they became more distant from them

[scagghiuni]

i'm starting to think that all this bis mafia war both in montreal and ontario is a total lcn one
in montreal two bonanno factions killing eachother, in ontario the buffalo family (violi) allied with montagna to take over the rizzuto's in montreal and also revenge his father

[Moscone65]

i'm starting to think that all this bis mafia war both in montreal and ontario is a total lcn one
in montreal two bonanno factions killing eachother, in ontario the buffalo family (violi) allied with montagna to take over the rizzuto's in montreal and also revenge his father

I agree, especially with the evidence showing that the Violi's are with buffalo. Perhaps some of the killings between ndrangheta were linked to the war, and some calabrians from Toronto were brought in to do work, and had influence in the war, I don't think they were at the root of it. When people said it was calabrians killing the Rizzuto's, they were likely right; but they weren't ndrangheta, they are a mostly calabrian faction within LCN.

[Moscone65]

I think it Buffalo guys from Ontario (with some ndrangheta backing) and Bonnano loyalists vs Rizzuto's.

[Moscone65]

The war has essentially stopped because there aren't many Rizzuto's left, and the remainders like Leo and Sollecito made an agreement to put it to rest. But with the Rizzuto's weakened and the Violi's locked up, there doesn't seem to be on dominant Italian force in Quebec, and it's just small mostly independent cells. If someone could step up, then it could be like Philly where there's a family made up of different "United" but seperate factions. However, I think there's too many past needs and differences between those groups to do that. It will probably take some time and change up in the top guys of these mafia cells for any progress to be made.

[Lupara]

He does not have the impression that the murders of his father and his son have the same motive or were commanded by the same individuals.


( I've actually always thought this too, that the hits on his son, and the ones against his dad and Renda seemed like different teams entirely.. Interesting..)

That's indeed the case.

The general concensus is that Nick Jr's murder was orchestrated by Tony Magi and Joseph Ducarme. The latter was hired by Magi as protection and to kill Nick, Jr. The Rizzutos had been squeezing money out of Magi's construction projects for years. They were basically extorting him.

The hits on Renda, Cuntrera and Rizzuto were not directly related, although Magi probably saw the winds changing in Montreal and perhaps even knew what was coming, so he felt secure enough to het rid of his extortionists.

It has been theorized that the lack of a strong reaction on Nick, Jr. was a sign for the would-be usurpers to make their move on the Rizzutos, but I think they were planning to do this nonetheless. I don't think they needed Nick, Jr.'s murder and subsequent lack of affirmative action to know that the Rizzuto group was severly weakened. Had Nick, Jr. not been killed first I don't think the outcome would've been much different - he would've likely become a victim of the coup just like his uncle and grandfather.

[Lupara]

VR stating to authorities that it’s the NY Bonannos who are making war on ‘his’ family, and that he broke his family off post George’s murder, is not tantamount to ratting, it, is, ratting.

Then perhaps he was doing just that. Then again, he was sharing his opinion and not selling anyone out by providing actual facts. Not to mention, it was because of his absense that the Rizzuto empire was being teared apart, an absense as a result of being betrayed by the "rats" Massino and Vitale. So considering the circumstances this ratting was likely forgiven/ignored.

[SonnyBlackstein]

VR stating to authorities that it’s the NY Bonannos who are making war on ‘his’ family, and that he broke his family off post George’s murder, is not tantamount to ratting, it, is, ratting.

Then perhaps he was doing just that. Then again, he was sharing his opinion and not selling anyone out by providing actual facts. Not to mention, it was because of his absense that the Rizzuto empire was being teared apart, an absense as a result of being betrayed by the "rats" Massino and Vitale. So considering the circumstances this ratting was likely forgiven/ignored.

I would disagree.

What would be the motivation to rat?
What would he gain?

At best hypothetical good grace with authorities, at worst, expulsion and death for betrayal of Omertà. Italians in canada as, the point of this thread, still kill.

It just doesn’t make sense to me. Qui Bono, who benefits?
Hardly Vito. So, why do so?

It just seems unlikely IMO.

[Lupara]

VR stating to authorities that it’s the NY Bonannos who are making war on ‘his’ family, and that he broke his family off post George’s murder, is not tantamount to ratting, it, is, ratting.

Then perhaps he was doing just that. Then again, he was sharing his opinion and not selling anyone out by providing actual facts. Not to mention, it was because of his absense that the Rizzuto empire was being teared apart, an absense as a result of being betrayed by the "rats" Massino and Vitale. So considering the circumstances this ratting was likely forgiven/ignored.

I would disagree.

What would be the motivation to rat?
What would he gain?

At best hypothetical good grace with authorities, at worst, expulsion and death for betrayal of Omertà. Italians in canada as, the point of this thread, still kill.

It just doesn’t make sense to me. Qui Bono, who benefits?
Hardly Vito. So, why do so?

It just seems unlikely IMO.

So you believe Renaud or LE who provided him with this information is making this up? Or do you think Rizzuto was deliberately providing false info, even though the evidence corresponds with his statements, at least the part of who was behind the attacks?

[SonnyBlackstein]

VR stating to authorities that it’s the NY Bonannos who are making war on ‘his’ family, and that he broke his family off post George’s murder, is not tantamount to ratting, it, is, ratting.

Then perhaps he was doing just that. Then again, he was sharing his opinion and not selling anyone out by providing actual facts. Not to mention, it was because of his absense that the Rizzuto empire was being teared apart, an absense as a result of being betrayed by the "rats" Massino and Vitale. So considering the circumstances this ratting was likely forgiven/ignored.

I would disagree.

What would be the motivation to rat?
What would he gain?

At best hypothetical good grace with authorities, at worst, expulsion and death for betrayal of Omertà. Italians in canada as, the point of this thread, still kill.

It just doesn’t make sense to me. Qui Bono, who benefits?
Hardly Vito. So, why do so?

It just seems unlikely IMO.

So you believe Renaud or LE who provided him with this information is making this up? Or do you think Rizzuto was deliberately providing false info, even though the evidence corresponds with his statements, at least the part of who was behind the attacks?

I don’t have an answer for you. I simply don’t know.

All I can say is it, to me, makes no sense Vito talking about highly, highly confidential Mafia matters to LE within days of his release without securing (that we know of) literally anything to gain.

That a Sig, and I use the term specifically, as Italian Canadians are much more ‘italian’ who’s lineage is mafia royalty and to our knowledge, lived and died by mafia law and code, now appears to suddenly and for no self gain (that we know of) would open up to LE within days of his release to discuss the most intimate of mafia secrets, does not seem likely, to me.

It just makes no sense. Great statements require great evidence. And for me to accept the above, I require the evidence.

[johnny_scootch]

The Rizzuto's were interesting because they were their own brand of cosa nostra. They weren't exactly LCN per say, but they weren't pure sicilian cosa nostra. (They didn't answer to the cupola and they Inducted members of non sicilian ancestry, like the LCN.)

So it could have been in the case like Frank Cali where he is thought that he is a member of both the Inzerillo's in Sicily, and the Gambinos of course.

The Rizzuto's are interesting but is there any evidence (besides Joe Bravo) of them making any guys that weren't considered members of the Bonanno family?


I've never heard of Frank Cali being a member of the Passo Di Ragano family and I highly doubt that is true.

There is no dual membership inside Cosa Nostra as there is no need for it.

[antimafia]

French copy below is from chapter 8, Le château de cartes, p. 180. Vito Rizzuto is speaking with both Lorie McDougall (a collaborator on the book) and Serge St-Denis, an RCMP Staff Sergeant who at the time is McDougall's colleague. Also present in the room is a young FBI agent.

Le froid entre eux s'est estompé. Comme s'ils étaient de vieux amis qui se connaissent depuis des décennies, le parrain et Lorie McDougall se rappellent de vieux souvenirs, tant agréables que plus douloureux.

McDougall émet une théorie sur le meurtre de l'ami de Rizzuto, Giuseppe Lo Presti, commis en 1992. Il lui dit croire que lui, Vito Rizzuto, a reçu la commande, mais qu'il a été incapable de l'exécuter et qu'il à demandé a des membres du « gang de l'ouest » de le faire a sa place. Le parrain regarde le plancher et ne répond pas.

Le chef de la mafia qualifie les membres du clan Bonanno de New York de « rats ». II dit qu'il a toujours su que c'était leur chef Joe Massino qui avait fait exécuter son ami Gerlando Sciascia et qu'auparavant, le clan Rizzuto remettait toujours des enveloppes à la famille mafieuse americaine à Noël, mais qu'à partir de ce moment, ce fut terminé.

________________

The Google Translate translation is below. The only change I made appears in square brackets below, as « gang de l'ouest » was translated as "western gang."

The cold between them has faded. As if they were old friends who have known each other for decades, the godfather and Lorie McDougall remember old memories, both pleasant and painful.

McDougall gives a theory of the murder of Rizzuto's friend, Giuseppe Lo Presti, in 1992. He tells him that he believed that he, Vito Rizzuto, received the order, but that he was unable to execute it and that he asked members of the [West End Gang] to do it for him. The godfather looks at the floor and does not answer.

The mafia leader calls the Bonanno clan members of New York "rats". He says he always knew that it was their leader Joe Massino who had his friend Gerlando Sciascia executed and that before that, the Rizzuto clan was still handing envelopes to the American mafia family at Christmas, but that from this moment it was over.

[SonnyBlackstein]

This is in direct contradiction to Bonnano acting Capo Dominick Cicale's testimony.

[antimafia]

This is direct contradiction to Bonnano acting Capo Dominick Cicale's testimony.

Cicale testified at several racketeering trials. In none of them did he testify about anything regarding Montreal.

The book that Ed Scarpo wrote with him does not contain or discuss any of Cicale's trial testimony.

I'll post some other excerpts from the book regarding the murder of Lo Presti and about Montreal's supposed cessation of tribute per what Vito Rizzuto and Sal Vitale told investigators. What is becoming more and more apparent to me after reading Renaud's latest book is that, when Sal Vitale, Joe Massino, and Vito Rizzuto were being questioned by investigators at various times over the years, the mobsters were not always truthful -- they intentionally lied about certain subjects for a number of reasons that are at least easy to guess at. Vitale and Rizzuto corroborate each other regarding the flow of tribute stopping as a result of Sciascia's murder, but the book reveals -- in my mind and in the minds of other readers as well -- that Vitale, after first providing the dominant, accepted account about Sciascia having killed or having arranged to kill Lo Presti, years later told investigators a different account. Hard to tell who is telling the truth about certain subjects.