Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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Lupara
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Re: RE: Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Lupara »

B. wrote:I don't understand how running a successful pizza business would prevent someone from holding the title of boss. Mafia hisory is filled with successful (and unsuccessful) businessman holding high-ranking positions, even boss, with little to no involvement in day-to-day criminal activities. From what has come of this Violi case, Todaro could very well be removed from criminal activity and still preside over the formalities of a mafia family, like appointing an underboss.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on here over what a mafia family is. Would be great if the DiLeonardo Q&A were still active, as I believe he would be able to give some insight into how this works and why a group like Buffalo could be a fully-structured family, capable of meeting with other families, without necessarily being a criminal powerhouse. It seems to be beyond my abilities to break it down despite plenty of effort over the years.
No problem breaking it down to me. You make a very good point and you've given examples of particulary Bonanno members who were amico nostra without being actual criminals, such as Alfonso Gagliano from Toronto and a member from the old days who was a practising dentist if I remember correctly.

I'm not denying any of Wiseguy's and Pogo's repeats of FBI statements of the Buffalo family. But as I've also said, Todaro may be fully legitimate but still hold sway in the local underworld. He has already made his bones in crime and built a reputation so why would he need to actually continue to participate in criminal activities to still be recognised as a Mafia leader and be able to make decisions? Now this is food for thought for some here.

I'm choosing the middle ground because there's no denying the FBI's statements as well as there's no denying these actual wiretaps. So it all comes down to interpretation of both sources, and that is according to my own logic that the Buffalo Family's criminal activities have continued in Canada with possible supervision from the original powerbase, which in turn is recognised and supported by the still relatively powerful New York families. As has been indicated, the Violis and other Canadian Buffalo members or associates rely on the support and cooperation of the families in New York, because it would be bad for business otherwise and even dangerous if they start ignoring Mafia traditions, politics and protocols. These guys are far more loyal and devoted to "their thing" than various posters over the years (particulary in regards to Canadian affairs) have suggested.

A good example would be Joe Di Maulo, who was according to some the great usurper who not only went to war against the Rizzutos but the Bonannos too and would've ordered the murder of Sal Montagna. We now know, thanks to the likes of Daniel Renaud and Di Maulo's own daughter that this was not the case. I was attacked by some posters on the RD for even suggesting the possibility that Di Maulo may not have been that much involved. I always believed (gut instinct) that he was a true mafioso who believed in its rules and protocols. He also had a good thing going for himself. Why would he jeopardise his carefully built status for going to war instead of enjoying his wealth and grandchildren? Never made much sense to me. Di Maulo was also furious with Desjardins according to his daughter, because he knew the consequences of an unsanctioned murder of a Mafia higher-up by a non-member who happened to be his brother-in-law. He probably realised from that point onward that the power-play against the Rizzutos was doomed and he knew he could pay the price for the actions of his brother-in-law.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by B. »

Pogo The Clown wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:03 pm
B. wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:56 am There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on here over what a mafia family is. Would be great if the DiLeonardo Q&A were still active, as I believe he would be able to give some insight into how this works and why a group like Buffalo could be a fully-structured family, capable of meeting with other families, without necessarily being a criminal powerhouse. It seems to be beyond my abilities to break it down despite plenty of effort over the years.

Some informants have talked about it.

Angelo Lonardo testified in the 80s how there was "no family in Cleveland. It was destroyed." Even though he knew there were still living members, that John Tronolone was the "Boss" and had dealings with NY. The remaining members were still recognized cosa nostra members but Lonardo considered the Cleveland family itsef as finished.

Ralph Natale said something similiar when he talked about how Billy D'Elia was the last member left in Scranton. Philly still recognized D'Elia as a cosa nostra member and delt with him but evidently Natale considered the Buflino family as done.

Jimmy Frattiano said something simliar about SF in his book. How in the 70s he said 'there is no OC in SF. just 4 old guy's with Lanza" as he set up shop in the city. Lanza and co. were still cosa nostra members but evidently Frattiano no longer considered the family to still be around.

Really this is no different than Birmingham voting to disband in the 30s or Madison in the 60s. In both cases when the lack of cohesion and oc activity was gone or reached a certain level the remaining members got together and formally voted to disband the organization. Except now they don't go through the formality of voting to disband. Now it just withers away. Like so many formalities it has gone by the wayside.


Pogo
That's what the situation was like in St. Louis in the 1960s as well, like I was saying, but they hadn't disbanded and were still conducting national business.

In this case, we have at least one made member of the Buffalo family, a would-be underboss, attending a Bonanno ceremony and talking about how NYC was consulted on the promotion. While we can't weigh in on what the American side of the Buffalo family has going on, it indicates that there is still some level of criminal activity being done by the Buffalo family in Ontario. The politics of Violi's promotion and details about the Buffalo family came from Violi's own conversation with a Bonanno member. Is it that you don't believe Violi, don't believe that the reporters are accurately reporting what came out of the court case, or what exactly is the argument? I agree it is good to be conservative and not use this one example as some all-telling source on the "resurgence of the might Buffalo family" but according to my understanding of a mafia family, this shows that the former Magaddino Family is an active organization at least on a base level, not disbanded.

I don't think an example like Scranton where the membership has completely died off, or forum battles over Detroit, which to my understanding hasn't had a member taped in recent years saying things like this, connect to this latest information about Buffalo. Some of it is semantics, but I don't believe we have a concrete enough source on Buffalo-Ontario to judge whether the Buffalo topic is just a semantic issue at this point. We have FBI observations which I do believe carry weight but it doesn't seem outside of Violi's tapes we have a member source from Buffalo or elsewhere weighing in on this, whereas the examples you gave all have high-ranking members giving the status of each dead/dying family. That is an important difference.
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Re: RE: Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Pogo The Clown »

Lupara wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:20 pm But as I've also said, Todaro may be fully legitimate but still hold sway in the local underworld. He has already made his bones in crime and built a reputation so why would he need to actually continue to participate in criminal activities to still be recognised as a Mafia leader and be able to make decisions? Now this is food for thought for some here.

By definition if he is still making decisions in regards to a criminal organization than he is still commiting criminal activities and not fully legitamite. Same as the example of Tom Gagliano up above. While he may have focused most of his attention on his legit interest he was still running a criminal organization, receiving money from said organization and no doubt ordering murders. If the FBI had been investigating LCN back then no way would they have considered Gagliano as legit and the Gagliano organization as being without a leader. Again there is a reason the FBI said that Buffalo has no viable organizaition and no leader.


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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Pogo The Clown »

B. wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:23 pm That's what the situation was like in St. Louis in the 1960s as well, like I was saying, but they hadn't disbanded and were still conducting national business.

While St. Louis was cetainly in decline in the late 60s they still had a full structure, they still had conhesion as an organization with the members and leaders regularly meeting and coordinating their activities on behalf of the organization and ongoing criminal activity (the vegas skim, union influence, infiltrating legit business, gambling, the occasional shakedown of bookines, etc). As weak as they were the Feds still considered them a viable family and Giodano as a Boss to be investigated. We don't see this with the Feds and Buffalo today.


If this Violi thing is true (again all we have is that one dubious article that everyone is repeating) it reminds me of when Tommy Marotta was cought on tape in 2000 calling himself the "Boss" and inducting informant Anthony Delmonti in a Rochester motel room. At the time people used it as an example of the Rochester family still being around or making a comeback even though the Feds didn't and still don't. Since then of course nothing has come out of Rochester in terms of LCN activity.


The examples I gave above show that even though there were still living members and guy's with nominal titles of Boss (Tronolone, Lanza and D'Elia) other ranking members didn't consider those families to still be alive. I edited my above post to include Michael Franzese saying how there are only 9 families remaining even though I'm sure he knew there were still living members involved with crime in other cities.


But like you said a lot of this is semantics and how one chooses to define things.


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Re: RE: Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Lupara »

Pogo The Clown wrote:
B. wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:23 pm That's what the situation was like in St. Louis in the 1960s as well, like I was saying, but they hadn't disbanded and were still conducting national business.

While St. Louis was cetainly in decline in the late 60s they still had a full structure, they still had conhesion as an organization with the members and leaders regularly meeting and coordinating their activities on behalf of the organization and ongoing criminal activity (the vegas skim, union influence, infiltrating legit business, gambling, the occasional shakedown of bookines, etc). As weak as they were the Feds still considered them a viable family and Giodano as a Boss to be investigated. We don't see this with the Feds and Buffalo today.


If this Violi thing is true (again all we have is that one dubious article that everyone is repeating) it reminds me of when Tommy Marotta was cought on tape in 2000 calling himself the "Boss" and inducting informant Anthony Delmonti in a Rochester motel room. At the time people used it as an example of the Rochester family still being around or making a comeback even though the Feds didn't and still don't. Since then of course nothing has come out of Rochester in terms of LCN activity.


The examples I gave above show that even though there were still living members and guy's with nominal titles of Boss (Tronolone, Lanza and D'Elia) other ranking members didn't consider those families to still be alive. I edited my above post to include Michael Franzese saying how there are only 9 families remaining even though I'm sure he knew there were still living members involved with crime in other cities.


But like you said a lot of this is semantics and how one chooses to define things.


Pogo
In any case, if these revelations are accurate, than Todaro is still recognised as the boss with ongoing activity of the Buffalo factions in Ontario. If Violi is telling the truth on these wiretaps that means that Todaro is still giving directions, but probably not on a level the FBI considers important enough to look into. Unless this is all bullshit, Todaro is at the very least still the nominal boss and still has influence, but probably minding his own (legitimate) business otherwise and giving the faction in Hamilton a free hand in running their rackets. That means that Domenico Violi is basically the street boss of what remains of the Buffalo family, in Ontario.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Frank »

Not to get off track, but this question that I've brought up before and never got an answer or an opinion because I don't think that anyone can answer, because the info isn't there. These Calabrian groups in Canada like the Musitanos, Viola, Luppino, and the older groups like Johnny Pops that are said at times not to be LCN, but N'drangeta. Are they mislabled that, and really LCN, just because they are Calabrian. I believe now that I have read more about them that originally their dad or grandfathers were N'drangeta members, but that the sons and grandsons became
LCN members. The Musitanos, I'm definitely not sure about, but they seem to be in the middle of a lot of LCN business.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Ivan »

Can someone PM me when we get to an actual conclusion about Buffalo and Todaro instead of having a meta-discussion of mafia epistemology? I want to know what's going on but I don't feel like reading 25 pages of this shit.

much obliged
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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Ivan wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:40 pm Can someone PM me when we get to an actual conclusion about Buffalo and Todaro instead of having a meta-discussion of mafia epistemology? I want to know what's going on but I don't feel like reading 25 pages of this shit.

much obliged

You may have to wait 5-10 years for that. That is typically how long it takes for these types of forum debates to be resolved and a general consensus/conclusion to be reached.


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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Ivan »

Pogo The Clown wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:47 pm
Ivan wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:40 pm Can someone PM me when we get to an actual conclusion about Buffalo and Todaro instead of having a meta-discussion of mafia epistemology? I want to know what's going on but I don't feel like reading 25 pages of this shit.

much obliged
You may have to wait 5-10 years for that. That is typically how long it takes for these types of forum debates to be resolved and a general consensus/conclusion to be reached.
Oh my god you're right. We still have holdouts about Detroit, don't we? :lol:
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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Pogo The Clown wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:47 pm
Ivan wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:40 pm Can someone PM me when we get to an actual conclusion about Buffalo and Todaro instead of having a meta-discussion of mafia epistemology? I want to know what's going on but I don't feel like reading 25 pages of this shit.

much obliged

You may have to wait 5-10 years for that. That is typically how long it takes for these types of forum debates to be resolved and a general consensus/conclusion to be reached.


Pogo
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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Ivan wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:49 pm
Pogo The Clown wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:47 pm
Ivan wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:40 pm Can someone PM me when we get to an actual conclusion about Buffalo and Todaro instead of having a meta-discussion of mafia epistemology? I want to know what's going on but I don't feel like reading 25 pages of this shit.

much obliged
You may have to wait 5-10 years for that. That is typically how long it takes for these types of forum debates to be resolved and a general consensus/conclusion to be reached.
Oh my god you're right. We still have holdouts about Detroit, don't we? :lol:
Doesn't take much. After the 2010 gambling bust in Kansas City, that alone resurrected that family in some people's eyes.

And Buffalo? Even if nothing else happens between now and forever, the OTremens bust and this week's articles will be more than enough to keep that family alive and well for at least another decade.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by B. »

I appreciate your points and I'm glad you're here to stop folks from running too far with this, Pogo, though I do believe there is potentially more to sink our teeth into here based on what was made available in court according to reputable reporter and thorough researcher/author Adrian Humphreys. Humphreys does like to "hype" the Canadian mafia groups a bit (i.e. "Sixth Family") but I've never known him to fabricate anything, especially something that came out in court, so it ultimately comes down to whether or not you trust Violi was telling the truth to a Bonanno member who would be operating in Violi's area (and who Violi didn't know was an informant). What has been shared of the conversations sounds matter of fact: that the Magaddino family is still a mafia group with a hierarchy that continues to promote members and there is a membership base of 30, with no indication or assumptions about how many members are "active". Nothing more, nothing less. We have taken much less credible information seriously as a board (myself included) without much question, so my opinion is that the information is worth considering with an open mind.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Ivan »

What it seems like to me would be the most likely scenario is that there has been a flurry of Cosa Nostra activity in the Niagra Peninsula, and that Todaro (who may have preferred to just stick with his legit businesses) was appointed boss of all this as his duty under the Cosa Nostra. Some of these guys are serious about the whole secret society thing you can't leave, and they put it above everything, and Todaro once "drafted" back in didn't really have any choice. So there is a Canadian Cosa Nostra family operating in the Niagara Peninsula, with Joe Todaro essentially "drafted" as a reluctant boss, but with not much activity in Buffalo or the rest of the American side.

So in other words, this is really just a Canadian family, which as we all know are just as serious as the New York Five Families, with Todaro brought in to run the ship.

Just a theory!

By the way, anyone else here ever meet Todaro? I waltzed into his pizzeria years ago and met the guy. He wasn't in the least bit sinister and was very classy, funny and likeable. I remember saying that La Nova was supposed to be the best pizzeria and town, and he pretended to be offended by the "supposed to be", which was both funny and kinda scary. Reminded me of that "how am I funny" thing from Goodfellas. Great guy though, as far as murderers go at least. And very good pizza, by the way. I'm supposed to travel to Buffalo sometime in the next couple years to see my father's ship from the navy (it is docked at Buffalo) and I'll probably drop by La Nova again.

Does anyone know about the hit where he allegedly made his bones back in the 80s? Something about offing a drug dealer with a shotgun? I have trouble picturing the nice pizza entrepreneur I met doing this, but apparently he killed a guy personally and that's how he became eligible.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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Ivan wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:40 pm Can someone PM me when we get to an actual conclusion about Buffalo and Todaro instead of having a meta-discussion of mafia epistemology? I want to know what's going on but I don't feel like reading 25 pages of this shit.

much obliged
:lol: What Ivan said...its allot to read thru. Without a list of the 30 made members Dom mentioned on the tapes. We cant tell if there are any active members that are actually in Buffalo...or are all the active member just in Ontario?
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by johnny_scootch »

antimafia wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:54 pm
johnny_scootch,

If Domenico Violi was only a Buffalo associate before Adrian Humphreys wrote a June 1, 1998 article about Paolo Violi's sons and Dominic Musitano Sr.'s sons--the article focused mostly on Domenico Violi and Pat Musitano--then why did a presumably already made Pat Musitano appear to defer to Domenico Violi in their interactions (and I don't just mean the kiss on the cheeks that was captured on surveillance)? Are we saying now that Pat wasn't made either in 1998 or one year earlier, in 1997, when Papalia and Barillaro were killed? If Pat wasn't, then more questions are raised, not fewer, about from whom he sought permission to arrange Papalia's and Barillaro's murders or from whom Pat had backing to arrange the murders without suffering too many consequences of violating mafia protocols. Incidentally, I've always had a hard time believing, among the several theories about the motives for the murders, that Vito Rizzuto provided such backing, because then he and the Bonanno Family would have been called to the carpet for killing made members of another American LCN family.

Below is an excerpt from Humphreys's June 1, 1998 article:

"For the Luppino family, the tradition was passed down to the Violis. They're family. It's blood that carries the traditions," says a current Hamilton-Wentworth police officer who has probed organized crime in depth.

Police believe the brothers were being groomed for leadership positions within the organization by some of their uncles -- Giacomo's sons -- some of whom have criminal records for fraud, assault, weapons violations and have been named in commissions probing crime.


The Halton Regional Police Service intelligence reports and other reports that I was the first to post here and on Gangster BB indicate Domenico Violi's involvement in organized crime, one of which, a July 24, 2002 report, states: "According to a historical report of Traditional Organized Crime, VIOLI is the heir apparent to the LUPPINO Crime group of Burlington."

It's information like the above that causes mobwatchers to assume Domenico and Giuseppe Violi, as well as their Luppino cousins, were part of a distinct crime group (read: 'ndrangheta) separate from a larger or different organization. Then again, per Humphreys's article from this past Monday, Rocco Luppino got promoted to captain in the Buffalo Family around the same time Domenico Violi got made into that family--and in January 2015, Rocco was approximately 80 years old, give or take two years.

As for the number of people at Morena's induction ceremony, Humphreys wrote last year in his November 10, 2017 article that "[t]he induction, involving at least five men, was allegedly presided over by Damiano Zummo, 44, an acting captain in the Bonanno crime family."
There could be a lot of reasons why Pat Musitano 'appeared' to defer to Dom Violi appearances are all in the eye of the beholder. I was always of the opinion that the Buffalo family itself signed off on the Papalia and Barillaro murders because to me thats what makes sense. As for the Luppino family I believe they have always been members of the Buffalo family from Giacomo on down. I believe he was the Buffalo family liaison and conduit to the Canadian Ndrangheta he most likely had come to Canada an Ndrangheta member and was allowed to join Cosa Nostra and this is what caused confusion that last to this very day.

As per the Morena induction Thank you.
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