Double Affiliation

[Frank]

Lol. But it's a interesting subject and discussion. His original point I believe was double affiliated members. But if you look into this some of the Zips come over already made in Sicily and some came over not made yet. I think to paint every Mafia member or associate with the same brush is a mistake. Some came made, others got made in US Families and some never got made. Look at John Gambino, he got into other businesses besides drugs others didn't.

honestly, the only cases of double affiliation that comes in mind are the ones in italy when some neapolitan and calabrian bosses were made member of cosa nostra in the 1970s

Yes I agree, that is what I meant. That they were either made over in Sicily or they came here not made, but became made members in the American LCN. These drug operations had different stages .Like who made the drug all the way down the line to who sold it to the junkie on the streets. Members and associates from different Families were in business together and worked together. It really in most cases wasn't one man or one Family that was in charge of the whole thing. I think that is what everyone is trying to tell Cabrini. Also trying to tell him there was no double affiliation. Just because a guy worked with a guy or was s partner with a guy from another family didn't mean they were members in each Family. For example is Joey Merlino also a Genovese and Patsey and Rooster also a member of Philadelphia. Of course not.

[CabriniGreen]

@wiseguy.

Now you are pissing me off, you dont even know what the fuck you are talking about.....

@Jeremy

It's a bullshit list cause the ban I'm talking about is from the fuckin mid 70s to mid 80s, the Castellano era..... the CHIN ERA... They had a ban in place for AMERICAN WISEGUYS, while at the same time tacitly approving MASSIVE trafficking by the sicilians.

Lot of guys on that list were active in the 50s and shit, its bullshit....

@Wiseguy


You say I'm confused, NO you are. That's one of the reasons this topic is so complicated, there are multiple rings, with intersecting players, that change during different time periods...

You dont even seem to get the point that Double Affiliation is a mechanism to facilitate the ( first tobacco) drug trade, and increase cooperation and reduce conflicts between the mafias, similar to how guys like Zaza and Piromalli were initiated to facilitate the tobacco, then drug trade....

Why the fuck would you give me that silly list. How many of those guys names wound in either the Pizza connection I in d.c. indictment documents, OR Iron Tower?....

I ask you for a list of Americans indicted in those operations and you produce that, and then say I'm unfocused, or confused.

I really dont even think you watched the video, or even have any real point except to disagree with ME, LOL


Why the fuck is he giving me guys like SQUILLANTE? Killed in the 50s? Gagliodotto? THATS THE FRENCH CONNECTION, that was an American mafia initiative, didnt require double affiliation, since the Sicilians hadn't sent soldiers over here for that.


Irritates the shit outta me.... these guys come in 7 pages into the shit, wernt even interested in the topic...

I wish they could keep the same energy when ever threads get derailed by all the nonsensical political bullshit or whatever else.....

[CabriniGreen]

@Frank

My original point was Globalization was happening, the world got smaller.

The European tobacco trade first , and then the American drug trade.

The need to get product A. TO point B. created a need for different " mafias" to access each others territory in a way that maximizes revenues, avoid conflicts, AND somehow maintain each organization's sovereignty.

My theory is that there maybe 3 ways around this...

1. Single affiliated, strategically placed, like John Gambino and Francesco Gambino.

2. Double affiliates- What I suspect the Rizzutos might have been...

3. Colonization-what the Palermo Gambinos, The Caruana- Cuntreras, and the biggest Calabrians clans ....

4. I suspect there are similar individuals operating today..
Palmeri, Semplice, maybe the Violis.......

[CabriniGreen]

Ans like I said, cross reference wiseguys list with the men indicted in the Pizza connection OR Iron Tower, and tell me how many match up?

[CabriniGreen]

Also, again did anyone watch the video?

Was Bruzzese a Double affiliate, as indicted?

[Lupara]

@cabrini

The French Connection was a Corsican/Marseille Mafia initiative with the Canadians and Americans facilitating it on their end.

The Pizza Connection and the Gambino-Inzerillo-Bontate rings were cooperative efforts by the Sicilians and Americans. They were close but ultimately answered to their own families.

[CabriniGreen]

@lupara

I just meant the American mafia had point men in Italy like Luciano, Adonis in Milan, Coppola. Who could negotiate with Corsicans or whomever. And organize shipments......

And then, every family had thier own contact. So it was like organized and controlled, as opposed to just taxed.


By the time of the Pizza Connection and Cherry Hill rings, a lot, if not all the guys who were at the Palermo meeting where the franchising was ratified, were either dead or out the mafia. On top of that, because of that car bomb, the Cupola was disbanded....

After that, the sicilians had to learn to refine their own....

Lol, like I'm not saying there are 50 guys walking around NYC with Double affiliation. JESUS...... I'm saying key men in strategic places.

[antimafia]

Also, again did anyone watch the video?

Was Bruzzese a Double affiliate, as indicted?

Yes, I watched the video a long time ago. In my opinion, the most interesting information Anna Sergi provided in it was the theory that Carmine Verduci (allegedly) started operating in Montreal because of friction within the Greater Toronto Area Siderno Group, friction he either caused or was on the receiving end of. According to this theory, he was either essentially expelled or he needed a new territory in which to operate as a drug trafficker because he couldn't operate in Ontario anymore.

Carmelo Bruzzese was eventually found not guilty of being a member of Cosa Nostra, i.e., he was found not guilty of what the Italian authorities alleged as a result of Operazione Orso Bruno (Operation Brown Bear): that he was a member of the Rizzuto organization. If Bruzzese was found not guilty, does the verdict put to rest the argument that he was doubly affiliated? Personally, I don't think he was doubly affiliated, but the findings of a court or the evidence presented during an Italian organized-crime trial sometimes don't prove something definitively, regardless of the jurisdiction. If Bruzzese is both a 'ndrangheta member and a member of the (insert here a second secret society: Sicilian Cosa Nostra, American LCN [a made Bonanno?], or "Rizzuto Family"), then the theory in Business or Blood... that Antonio Coluccio was a main instigator in the attempt to take control of the Montreal underworld could be considerably weakened or even nullified. Why, you ask? Because Bruzzese is Coluccio's father-in-law. Because Bruzzese is not some minor 'ndrangheta figure.

On the one hand, the idea that 'ndrangheta members in Ontario, individually or collectively, wanted to take over Montreal doesn't make sense if Bruzzese was as close to Vito Rizzuto and other high-ranking Montreal Mafia members as has been clearly shown over the years. On the other hand, if Bruzzese was indeed doubly affiliated but let his son-in-law wreak havoc in Montreal, the situation is a perfect example of why double affiliation, which has been considered such a bad idea for such a very long time, was decreed an impossibility in North America after the Castellammarese War. To whom exactly was Bruzzese loyal when he was first inducted into another secret society? Did he stay loyal to the second secret society? For how long did he stay loyal? Did he ultimately pledge his loyalty to the first secret society into which he was inducted?

Which mafia organization Domenico and Giuseppe Violi were made in to when they were younger has never been clearly established. I'm interested in facts; so the assertion that they are 'ndrangheta members because of their birthright doesn't mean a whole lot to me or to 'ndrangheta experts like Antonio Nicaso and Nicola Gratteri. The birthright claim is just another way of overstating or inflating the size, power, and influence of 'ndrangheta groups, especially those outside of Calabria. The family tree posted on these forums that show Giacomo Luppino, his children, grandchildren, and extended family is more a genealogical chart than anything else; the family tree is not an organized-crime chart of an 'ndrangheta group. (And with Domenico and Giuseppe Violi being in jail at the moment, what exactly is the size of the Luppino-Violi group?)

What we do have evidence of is the presence of the Violi brothers at a taped Bonanno induction ceremony. They couldn't simultaneously be Buffalo Family and Bonanno Family members--they would have had to transfer from the former to the latter. So then, some of us--because some of us don't appreciate this explanation of their made status--liken their situation to that of their father, Paolo, who grew up in an 'ndrangheta family/clan but was eventually inducted into the Bonanno Family, with the proviso that he was allowed to stay a member of the 'ndrangheta while simultaneously being the acting captain of the Bonanno Family's branch in Montreal.

Domenico and Giuseppe Violi's status as made Bonannos helps clarify why there seemed to have been tensions between the Desjardins-Mirarchi group and Calabrians from Ontario, all of whom were supposedly in cahoots with Sal Montagna to decimate the Rizzuto organization. The Desjardins-Mirarchi group, headed by a French-Canadian and an Italian-Canadian about whom we have no evidence of their being made, plotted to kill an important made Bonanno member and eventually had him killed. I don't see these made Violi brothers, born to Calabrian parents, being beholden to this clan calabrais headed by Desjardins and Mirarchi.

[Wiseguy]

@wiseguy.

Now you are pissing me off, you dont even know what the fuck you are talking about.....

@Jeremy

It's a bullshit list cause the ban I'm talking about is from the fuckin mid 70s to mid 80s, the Castellano era..... the CHIN ERA... They had a ban in place for AMERICAN WISEGUYS, while at the same time tacitly approving MASSIVE trafficking by the sicilians.

Lot of guys on that list were active in the 50s and shit, its bullshit....

@Wiseguy


You say I'm confused, NO you are. That's one of the reasons this topic is so complicated, there are multiple rings, with intersecting players, that change during different time periods...

You dont even seem to get the point that Double Affiliation is a mechanism to facilitate the ( first tobacco) drug trade, and increase cooperation and reduce conflicts between the mafias, similar to how guys like Zaza and Piromalli were initiated to facilitate the tobacco, then drug trade....

Why the fuck would you give me that silly list. How many of those guys names wound in either the Pizza connection I in d.c. indictment documents, OR Iron Tower?....

I ask you for a list of Americans indicted in those operations and you produce that, and then say I'm unfocused, or confused.

I really dont even think you watched the video, or even have any real point except to disagree with ME, LOL


Why the fuck is he giving me guys like SQUILLANTE? Killed in the 50s? Gagliodotto? THATS THE FRENCH CONNECTION, that was an American mafia initiative, didnt require double affiliation, since the Sicilians hadn't sent soldiers over here for that.


Irritates the shit outta me.... these guys come in 7 pages into the shit, wernt even interested in the topic...

I wish they could keep the same energy when ever threads get derailed by all the nonsensical political bullshit or whatever else.....

Go back and read your post, you never specified those operations.

Your original question (which you apparently felt you already had the answer to) was who ran the heroin trade, the Sicilians or Americans?

When I said both, you apparently didn't like that answer (you wanted the answer to be the conclusion you already came to) and you mentioned the drug ban within the American mob. While there was a ban, or at least a nominal one that went back to the late 1950s if I remember right, there was never a time that there weren't plenty of American mobsters involved in the drug trade. The list I gave you showed as much.

You then tried to move the goal posts, arguing you were only talking about the Pizza Connection. So I told you info you should already know, since you read so much, about the 21 charged included both Sicilian and Bonanno members.

Nobody is denying there was "massive trafficking" by the Sicilians. What I'm saying is the Americans were also very involved and always had been. As such, both ran the heroin trade.

[John W]

Are 'The Mafia' and 'The Octopus' books by Claire Sterling the same book but with a different title which happens from time to time or are they completely different books?

[CabriniGreen]

@wiseguy

" I never specified..." Lol , The whole conversation was sparked by the book Octopus, and the books main premise that the Sicilians ran the PIZZA CONNECTION and CHERRY HILL RINGS, and the cocaine ring by Mannino and LoDuca busted by the DEA.

But, again I get it, IM the confused one.....

[Confederate]

In the book "Last Days of The Sicilians", it is well explained how the Sicilian Clans were involved in the manufacturing and distribution of Heroin. The Sicilians had some of their own men on the receiving end of the Heroin in America. In addition, some of the American LCN guys were ALSO involved (one way or another) in some of the distribution. The drug ban in New York was basically a hypocritical decree of bullshit. What the ban REALLY meant was don't get directly involved in the distribution of drugs "AND GET CAUGHT". What you had was two different organizations (Sicilian Mafia Clans AND American LCN working together in the Drug Business. That's the bottom line. It's actually quite obvious the way it operated and showed great business skill of the Sicilians in particular. As I have said before, in my opinion during that time period, you could not beat the Sicilians for secrecy and organization. The way the Pizza Connection operated for many years was very impressive from a business standpoint.

[CabriniGreen]

@Confederate


What kills me, is that if you are familiar with my post history, I've pretty much always said I thought the Bonnanos, in the structure, were the trusted buyers in NY.

But the sicilians were the controllers, where as with the French Connection, they actually had Americans like Luviano, Adonis, Coppola over there organizing and negotiating.

I gave a WHOLE EXAMPLE with the Sicilian San Guiseppe Jato family: Strategic men placed in Brazil, Sicily, AND New York.... Horizontal and vertical control....

[Lupara]

@Confederate


What kills me, is that if you are familiar with my post history, I've pretty much always said I thought the Bonnanos, in the structure, were the trusted buyers in NY.

But the sicilians were the controllers, where as with the French Connection, they actually had Americans like Luviano, Adonis, Coppola over there organizing and negotiating.

I gave a WHOLE EXAMPLE with the Sicilian San Guiseppe Jato family: Strategic men placed in Brazil, Sicily, AND New York.... Horizontal and vertical control....

Not sure whether Luciano's supposed drug operation was part of the same racket as the French Connection.

[CabriniGreen]

Okay, you piqued my interest here, Luciano wasnt into drugs in Italy? Legit question here..