Double Affiliation

[CabriniGreen]

I was watching a brief seminar on YouTube by Anna Sergi.


She said, or rather kinda insinuated that Carmine Bruzzeze was indicted as a member of LCN, but ALSO in another later indictment, indicted as a member of ndrangheta.

It seemed to be, I dunno, a point of contention in her report. She was trying to hint at Double affiliation...

it seemed to me she was insinuating th that same thing in the report in the recorded Bonnano making ceremony thread...

Like me, she seems to have trouble reconciling the organizational and business structures when the two mafias meet.....

What do you guys think?

[CabriniGreen]

I'll post the link.....


https://youtu.be/bdUnm2PSqpo

[johnny_scootch]

Members of N'Drangheta have def been initiated into Cosa Nostra in the past but always top bosses and always in Sicily. Same for Camorra but I don't think there has ever been a case where a member of Cosa Nostra has been initiated in any other mafia organization. Cosa Nostra membership was the pinnacle.

Cabrini have you read Mafia Republic and Blood Brotherhoods by John Dickie?????/
If not.....get on that.

[CabriniGreen]

I got Mafia Republic, and Cosa Nostra by John Dicke, required reading imo.....

Blood Brotherhoids, say no more, I'm on it....

[CabriniGreen]

I actually like the way you put that, " Cosa Nostra membership was the pinnacle"...

I guess the precise question I'm wondering, especially in regards to guys like the Violis, is, IS COSA NOSTRA STILL THE PINNACLE?

In Europe, I would say, imo, definitely not.
What I find interesting is she is saying that increasingly, this becoming the case in North America as well...

That's the question that's still bugging me. If you are a mobster in Canada, which affiliation would be a more profitable association?


To my eyes, membership in NY LCN is valuable, TO NYC BASED MEMBERS OF LCN.

Unless you have contacts like Cali, those type of guys.....

[johnny_scootch]

That's the question that's still bugging me. If you are a mobster in Canada, which affiliation would be a more profitable association?

There is no right answer to this question. Most of the time how much you earn depends on the individual and his abilities not his necessarily his particular association.

As an organization Cosa Nostra doesn't spread like the 'Ndrangheta can and has so I'd say there is a clear advantage that 'ndranghetisti have when it comes to worldwide contacts but its up to the person to make that work to his advantage.

There are posters on this forum that know way more then I do when it comes to this stuff, hopefully some of them will weigh in.

[ChicagoOutfit]

Is there any list or some examples of guys that are made in multiple organizations? Thanks!

[johnny_scootch]

Is there any list or some examples of guys that are made in multiple organizations? Thanks!

No such list.


Check out John Dickies book Mafia Republic. In the chapters called 'the Mafia-isation of the Camorra' & 'the mushroom pickers of Montalto' he talks about double affiliation and even triple affiliation. Men like Michele Zaza, the Nuvoletta brothers, the Mazzarella's, Mico Tripodo, Ntoni Macri, Raffaele Cutolo and others.

[ChicagoOutfit]

Is there any list or some examples of guys that are made in multiple organizations? Thanks!

No such list.


Check out John Dickies book Mafia Republic. In the chapters called 'the Mafia-isation of the Camorra' & 'the mushroom pickers of Montalto' he talks about double affiliation and even triple affiliation. Men like Michele Zaza, the Nuvoletta brothers, the Mazzarella's, Mico Tripodo, Ntoni Macri, Raffaele Cutolo and others.

Thanks!!!

[CabriniGreen]

I'm pretty sure no on Rafaelle Cutolo, but I gotta check...

[johnny_scootch]

I'm pretty sure no on Rafaelle Cutolo, but I gotta check...

John Dickie says he was initiated into 'Ndrangheta in prison and later used what he learned from them to form the Nuova Camorra Organizzata. I'm not implying that he was a member of Cosa Nostra if that's how you took it. In fact he was a great enemy of Cosa Nostra.

[CabriniGreen]

Okay, I was going to say he went to war with some of those LCN guys you mentioned, Alfieri, Zaza, Nuvolettas....

[B.]

In the 1970s a Toronto 'ndrangheta member named Francesco Caccamo was busted w/ a document that translated from Italian to something like "How to Form a Society" that also included rules. I'm not sure what all it said, maybe one of the Canadian experts has seen excerpts, but it's extremely unlikely that you would hear that language, written or even verbal, from within Cosa Nostra. We don't know how the Sicilian mafia formed families in N.America initially in the 19th and early 20th century and there was no doubt a process that required approval and recognition from other mafia leaders (i.e. Commission / National Assembly), but nothing points to the Sicilian-originated groups having an open attitude along the lines of "how to form a mafia family." The Sicilian approach seems to be to have as few organizations as possible and to have those organizations have as far of a reach as they can, which is why you see mafia families with crews in areas way outside of their HQ city. There are exceptions of course, like San Francisco / San Jose and NYC (though the latter can be explained by the sheer amount of members there).

The above is why I always ask about the Montreal crew -- if they broke off from the Bonannos, what are they? In pop culture, "mafia" is used very loosely for any organized Italian criminals but in reality a "mafia family" can only be considered a true mafia organization if they're recognized by other groups who are the same as them. The Montreal and Toronto members who were made into the Bonannos and Buffalo were inducted as Cosa Nostra members. If they split off from their original organizations, what are they? If they are still Cosa Nostra, that requires recognition from other Cosa Nostra families. There is reason to suspect that the remaining Buffalo-Toronto element has roots in the 'ndrangheta/Calabrian Camorra and that they have more or less folded back into being an 'ndrangheta group. That makes sense since it seems the 'ndrangheta allows its members to have other affiliations. However, the remaining Montreal group has a more varied background and a much more obvious history in Cosa Nostra, so it seems the situation is different there.

One thing that's been explained to me by someone more knowledgeable on Camorra/'ndrangheta is that being an inducted member of those groups is not equivalent to being an inducted member of the Sicilian/US mafia. Chris Christie explained it well by saying that once someone is inducted into the Sicilian or US organizations, they are fully "in" and there is no limit to the rank they can achieve in the organization from there. That's why you have examples of guys both past and present who have become leaders a very short time after being made. Apparently the mainland organizations have levels of membership that would otherwise be equivalent to associate level in the Sicilian/US groups, and other levels as well above the equivalent to "soldier".

I don't want to speak out of my lane, but these kinds of differences, among others, could factor into why the 'ndrangheta/Camorra allows its member to join another group, while the Sicilians don't allow their members to join other organizations. The Sicilians seem to allow existing 'ndrangheta/Camorra members in as mafia members under the right circumstances (which is what happened in the early USA and possibly Canada) but they wouldn't allow members who were first inducted into the mafia to then join another group.

Not saying any of this is definitive, but based on the limited info we have, it makes the most sense.

[CabriniGreen]

Good post B.

A few questions and counterpoints, for sake of good discussion....

Actually some clarifications first, in case I'm posting from a position of being misinformed....

1. Was Nicolo Rizzuto made into the Bonnanos?
I was always under the impression that he married into the Manno family that ruled their ancestral town in Sicily. That he was more Sicilian mafia than American LCN...

John Dickes works were cited in this thread. I went back and refreshed some of the material, there was a key statement he made, on page 213, he describes Nick Rizzuto as the " Caruanas-Cuntreras man in Montreal"...

Now we know that the Caruana-Cuntrera family ran a mafia clan in Venezuela, that was authorized by the mafia, from what I've read, by Carlo Gambino himself.

So was Nick Rizzuto running the Montreal branch of the Caruanas-Cuntrera Venezuela based mafia clan, or the Montreal branch of the Bonnano family?


( And echoing the same thought, was Sciascia Rizzutos man in NY, or the Bonannos connection to Montreal?...)

Now, this is SOLELY MY OPINION HERE...
Here's the thing, I suspect there were four men, in the Bonnanos Rizzuto might have voluntarily answered to; Joe Bonnano, Frank Garafolo, John Bonaventre, and Carmine Galante. Two retired, one got ousted from the Commision and the mafia in general, and Galante got ( probably, set up...) his wings clipped by doing 12 years.

These (I feel) are the only four men in the Bonnanos who had the clout and connections to duplicate Rizzutos capabilities in the drug trade during the time period. The Bonnanos went what, 10 years without a strong boss? My point here being if Rizzuto was unremarkable, replaceable, if his level of connections was easily duplicated by other caporegimes, why was there meeting, after meeting, then consultation, then sitdowns to resolve the Violi- Rizzuto problem? They could a hit Niccolo ANYTIME... HE was the one bucking...
and unless I'm very mistaken, at this point he wasnt even a made guy....


On your point of families....

You confuse me with the question of, " Who recognizes them? Or what are they, if not a family"? I feel like you are taking that WAY too literally.

I've said this too many times, mafia families in Sicily arnt that big. I feel like you are mistakenly comparing them to the families in NY, ( which are unique, and formed under unique circumstances..) instead of Sicilian, Calabrian, or Napoletan clans. I posted an excerpt in a thread Gambinos in Canada... there was a boss Mandala, I think. The guy was in charge of FIVE families! Now I suspect he actually controlled probably less than a hundred fifty men of honor. You see what I'm saying?

In Diego Gambettas Sicilian Mafia, Business of private protection, he says Bontades family, due to participation in the drug trade swelled the family ranks from 50 to like 170 made men? Something like that...

Narcotics based syndicates spawn offshoots all the time. The Colombians spawned the Mexicans cartels. Guadalajara spawned all the cartels. Gulf spawns the Zetas, Sinaloa spawns Jalisco, Beltran-Leyva.. the Licciardis started under the Guiliano clan, Di Lauros spawned from another clan. The Polverinos were a Nuvoletta sub clan, then they got busted running a billion dollar hash empire... I dont think people take this component into consideration when they look at these people...



The mafia plays with their organization a lot, actually in history. Think about the difference between the Sicilian commission Bucetta help set up, and the commision headed by Badalamenti. Very different entities....



When you say who recognized them, ( or authorized them..) uuuh, everyone, lol. Starting with the Bonnanos, who gave tacit authorization, approval, recognition, whatever when they picked Rizzuto over their OWN regime.

I mean take this....

Salvatore 'Cicchiteddu' Greco, the former head of the overall Commission of the Sicilian Cosa Nostra, and one of the pioneers in the international heroin trade (50);
* Nick Rizzuto, a lieutenant in the Montreal-based Cotroni Family, but highly independent and in fact subordinate to the Sicilian Mafia (i.e. Cuntrera-Caruana);
* Antonio Napoli, a high-ranking made member of the New York Gambino Family and 'the biggest mover of junk to the United States' (51);
* John Gambino, a relative of Carlo Gambino and boss of the Sicilian faction of the New York Gambino Family (52);
* Brothers Angelo and Francesco Mongiovì, figure-heads of the Cuntreras in Caracas and Italy's financial centre Milan. According to a DEA report, Angelo's son Nino Mongiovì married Paolo Cuntrera's daughter and was the 'super manager for drugs of all kinds passing through Miami'. (53)
These are all partners of theirs....

You throw in men like Badalamenti, hell, fuck it, if you were Italian, connected to OC and in the drug trade, I dont think there is ANY doubt whatsoever they were " recognized" and respected, WIDELY....honestly, even if you weren't Italian, if you were anyone big in the trade, you probably were familiar with them...

I mentioned the bridge thing before... Seriously, in what universe could Rizzuto be the point man, in a multi-BILLION DOLLAR, construction ( CONSTRUCTION!!) project, connecting the two most heavily entrenched mafia strongholds, maybe in the world, without being, " recognized"? Or respected? Or like, VERY WELL CONNECTED to BOTH organizations?


This is a love and hate topic for me. Its fascinating , but too complex for small post, too much information to put in a neat order...

I asked about the Violis, ndrine or regime?
Then I see the gangland article with the Italian crime family, introduced to a Bonnano guy as " Gambino guys". I dare anyone here to tell me they have heard of a Gambino Toronto crew. So what does it mean? They do business, under the Gambino brand, but still maintain thier Italian affiliation?

There is the Sergi article, where she says Calabrians are giving orders to American associates... Are times changing?

Okay, I'll pick this up later, literally tired of typing on my phone...

Any thoughts fellas?

[Lupara]

Interesting points and thoughts as always guys.

I think it's a fact that Sciascia was a full Bonanno member loyal to their administration and in charge of supervising Montreal, formally speaking. On a personal level he probably represented his paesani from Cattolica Eraclea.

I think Nick Rizzuto was already a made member during his conflict with Violi. As an associate he wasn't in a position to challenge Violi and having a sitdown turning in his favor. Either made in Sicily then transfered to the Bonannos or made into the Bonannos shortly after settling in Canada. No doubt it were his deep connections to his fellow Sicilians and his role in the drug trade that kept him alive. Evidently he was a more important player in the Mafia on an international level than Violi.