Double Affiliation

[John W]

I read the book 'The Mafia' by Claire Sterling many years ago and always assumed 'The Octopus' was the same book but with a different title which happens from time to time.

I'm ordering it right now

[CabriniGreen]

First off, you guys are correct. There isnt one GIANT single mafia, that WAS an exaggeration there.

But it did remind me of something antimafia said to me, in another thread, but basically the same topic. I cant remember his exact quote, but it was something like," you cant see the trees from the forest. What you guys are missing is the extensive cooperation as amongst the mafias..." Something to that affect.

With globalization and the narcotics routes being the turnkey to the Global Criminal powers, there would be a real need for more cooperation.

I'm finishing up Last Days of the Sicilians, so far it's good, not quite as good as Octopus...

@Wiseguy

You sure you read Octopus? Because there's no, and I mean NO way you read that and come away with ANY impression the drug trade was run from the American side.


You realize in that book, they say the Palermo Gambinos had the biggest heroin refinery in the world?

Or that they said, EVERY Sicilian family had a crew over here handling their action in the drug trade. I thought that in particular was interesting, as it gave context to something said in Sixth Family, about every Sicilian operating over here carried the weight of his mafia clan in Sicily.

[CabriniGreen]

Look at it like this.....

Antonio Salammone was boss of San Guiseppe Jato.
He goes to Brazil, right? Hooks up with Buscetta and the French Connection Corsicans. Leaves Bernardo Brusca in Sicily, same family. So hes coordinating with the Cupola, that's regulating the refineries. They send Guiseppe Ganci to NY, Catalano is there. These are basically Riinas people.

You are saying because they pay the Bonnano family a fee, ( And actually, they paid Castellano...) to operate in Brooklyn, the Bonnanos are IN CHARGE?

If I run an automotive repair company, and I lease your warehouse, you dont OWN my company because I lease your warehouse. When my lease is up, I can move my equipment, my employees, my customers, my parts suppliers, THE WHOLE BUSINESS, somewhere else.

If the Bonnanos had a guy in Sicily on the Cupola, maybe. If they had a guy embedded in Brazil or Venezuela, or SOMEWHERE negotiating with producer/suppliers, maybe.

One thing made very clear in that Octopus book, the Rizzutos WERE agents of the Venezuela based Cuntrera family.....

[CabriniGreen]

Also @Wiseguy

You are talking about a period in time when the NY wiseguys were BANNED from dealing... How could they be in charge or INVEST in a shipment?

[CabriniGreen]

One last thing for now, the Cherry Hill ring, Knickerbocker crews, this heroin was paid for by Tobacco money and kidnapping money.

If the NY families had put the money up, I could see your point....

[JeremyTheJew]

So Ganci was made in Sicily? Is that what Octopus said? That book is probably the best in terms of heroin/sicilian history.

Did it talk about who the Cherry Hills went thru?? Inzerillos??
How much did the Gambinos and Bonannos work together?

[Wiseguy]

With globalization and the narcotics routes being the turnkey to the Global Criminal powers

There you go again...

@Wiseguy

You sure you read Octopus? Because there's no, and I mean NO way you read that and come away with ANY impression the drug trade was run from the American side.

Yes, it was actually one of the first books I read on the Sicilian Mafia. And, if it was all I had ever read about the Mafia and the drug trade, I'd probably be thinking the same thing. Sterling definitely makes the Sicilians to be the all-poweful overlords.

Look at it like this.....

Antonio Salammone was boss of San Guiseppe Jato.
He goes to Brazil, right? Hooks up with Buscetta and the French Connection Corsicans. Leaves Bernardo Brusca in Sicily, same family. So hes coordinating with the Cupola, that's regulating the refineries. They send Guiseppe Ganci to NY, Catalano is there. These are basically Riinas people.

You are saying because they pay the Bonnano family a fee, ( And actually, they paid Castellano...) to operate in Brooklyn, the Bonnanos are IN CHARGE?

If I run an automotive repair company, and I lease your warehouse, you dont OWN my company because I lease your warehouse. When my lease is up, I can move my equipment, my employees, my customers, my parts suppliers, THE WHOLE BUSINESS, somewhere else.

If the Bonnanos had a guy in Sicily on the Cupola, maybe. If they had a guy embedded in Brazil or Venezuela, or SOMEWHERE negotiating with producer/suppliers, maybe.

One thing made very clear in that Octopus book, the Rizzutos WERE agents of the Venezuela based Cuntrera family.....

Again, when you asked about who "ran the heroin trade," it depends on what you meant by "ran."

It wasnt always a case of the Americans just collecting rent. They were dealing too.

Also @Wiseguy

You are talking about a period in time when the NY wiseguys were BANNED from dealing... How could they be in charge or INVEST in a shipment?

Uh...because it was a nominal ban that was often ignored. The Americans have always been neck deep in drugs, ban or not.

[Frank]

Sounds like an interesting book, but doesn't mean everything in it is correct.One thing that you have to ask is if the Sicilians we're in charge of the entire drug operation, why a guy like John Gambino would become a made member of the Gambino Family? Why would the Sicilians be Galante's body guards and then be made into the Bonannos. Not to mention the fact that they killed him following American LCN orders

[Super]

I feel jg had hes own links and so did sal catalano.

[Wiseguy]

Sounds like an interesting book, but doesn't mean everything in it is correct.One thing that you have to ask is if the Sicilians we're in charge of the entire drug operation, why a guy like John Gambino would become a made member of the Gambino Family? Why would the Sicilians be Galante's body guards and then be made into the Bonannos. Not to mention the fact that they killed him following American LCN orders

It is an interesting book but it's dated. One thing I recall I when Sterling talks about how the Sicilians were in a unique position (at the time) in terms of the international drug trade. The Colombians moved cocaine, the Chinese moved heroin, and the Sicilians moved both. Their ability to broker/traffic in both drugs gave them a controlling position, according to Sterling.

[JeremyTheJew]

Sounds like an interesting book, but doesn't mean everything in it is correct.One thing that you have to ask is if the Sicilians we're in charge of the entire drug operation, why a guy like John Gambino would become a made member of the Gambino Family? Why would the Sicilians be Galante's body guards and then be made into the Bonannos. Not to mention the fact that they killed him following American LCN orders

It is an interesting book but it's dated. One thing I recall I when Sterling talks about how the Sicilians were in a unique position (at the time) in terms of the international drug trade. The Colombians moved cocaine, the Chinese moved heroin, and the Sicilians moved both. Their ability to broker/traffic in both drugs gave them a controlling position, according to Sterling.

In her next book it was the Russians thay were all powerfull, have u read the followup? I beliebe its called thieves world

[Wiseguy]

Sounds like an interesting book, but doesn't mean everything in it is correct.One thing that you have to ask is if the Sicilians we're in charge of the entire drug operation, why a guy like John Gambino would become a made member of the Gambino Family? Why would the Sicilians be Galante's body guards and then be made into the Bonannos. Not to mention the fact that they killed him following American LCN orders

It is an interesting book but it's dated. One thing I recall I when Sterling talks about how the Sicilians were in a unique position (at the time) in terms of the international drug trade. The Colombians moved cocaine, the Chinese moved heroin, and the Sicilians moved both. Their ability to broker/traffic in both drugs gave them a controlling position, according to Sterling.

In her next book it was the Russians thay were all powerfull, have u read the followup? I beliebe its called thieves world

Yeah, in that one she just about every OC group under the sun coming together to plunder the world.

[UTC]

Could barely finish it.

[CabriniGreen]

@wise guy

You guys really crack me up..... I've said it many times, yall just like to argue.......

You seem to not like the author, I could care less, lol. I'm more interested in the information...

Its dated? How does that even make sense? It's a book from 1991, or 89 or some shit, about OC in the mid to late 80s, you act like it JUST came out, lol. Are you sure you read it?

Look, there are lots of examples, of info in the book that Ive read in other places. Example, Felices info, the Iron Tower documents from Italy..... I saw these, when did he post this, 2014? ( EDIT: I WENT TO CHECK, IT WAS 2017) They state that it was well known Pat Conte paid 100,000 for his button.

In the book, there is an unnamed Gambino capo, whom (I believe by an informant ) It says paid 100 grand for his membership, and it was well known... This was in 89, or something... But you say the info is dated, and apparently not to be taken seriously, ....

There are LOTS of little examples like that in the book, where things I've read elsewhere, often multiple times are kinda confirmed. And I mean, there ARE some mistakes too....


One of the MOST glaring I found to be... the statement that there was, ( at the time of publishing, It may not have been known yet...) NO evidence that either Cesare Bonaventre or Baldassare Amato were made Bonnano members. I've read that Bonaventre was one of the youngest CAPOS too many times, in too many places for me to believe that.

NOW THAT IS DATED INFORMATION. In my opinion.

Another thing I just remembered... In the book, it ask... After Castellano was hit, WHO from the Commision took the " Rent" payments?

Well, it says LE surveillance caught John Gotti meeting regularly with..... John Gambino at the Cafe on 18th. What did we read from Felices Iron Tower papers?
The SAME FUCKING THING!!

Now here is where it got REALLY interesting to me....
Felices info, the interpretation was that Gotti was meeting with Gambino, to diffuse potential retaliation from the sicilians.

But Bronx said it was nonsense, that Gotti and Gambino were almost hand in glove. The book stated that they met to work out the heroin business. It said informants reported that Gambino had a big sitdown with a capo from EACH of the families at the Cafe on 18th.


Then I think to things I've read like Gotti ordering Conte to reopen his dope business, or Gotti getting heroin from the fellow Napolean, LCN connected Bardellino, who was connected to all the same dope people, some of this stuff makes sense to me....

I dont have my copy, I'll post the page number later, but in the book they say that John Gambino might be the only confirmed member of both mafias, or something like that. I'll post the exact excerpt when I have my book ....


I dont have my copy, but a lot of this stuff comes from the DEA following Enzo Napoli....

I dont know HOW, under WHAT circumstances, a NYC based agent would get to go to VENEZUELA and like, surveil the Cuntreras, I mean... What the Fuck?

[CabriniGreen]

Sounds like an interesting book, but doesn't mean everything in it is correct.One thing that you have to ask is if the Sicilians we're in charge of the entire drug operation, why a guy like John Gambino would become a made member of the Gambino Family? Why would the Sicilians be Galante's body guards and then be made into the Bonannos. Not to mention the fact that they killed him following American LCN orders

[quote=It is an interesting book but it's dated. One thing I recall I when Sterling talks about how the Sicilians were in a unique position (at the time) in terms of the international drug trade. The Colombians moved cocaine, the Chinese moved heroin, and the Sicilians moved both. Their ability to broker/traffic in both drugs gave them a controlling position, according to Sterling.

My man, how is this dated? New bridge, was coke to Europe, Heroin to the US. Set up by the descendants of the same people running the show decades ago....

Violis, South American coke, and Chinese fentanyl, opiates? You tell me, WHATS CHANGED?