I almost hate to say it....

[JIGGS]

Because it's only an online consensus that Phil Lombardo was the boss and Funzi was a front. Which is the most irresponsible assertion made by Wiki editors.

Actually, it seems most law enforcement and OC journalists (Capeci, Raab, etc) agree with this too, ie Lombardo being the boss, Tieri being underboss/acting boss, etc. It's not a Wiki invention and has been the conventional wisdom for years.

Capeci, Raab etc based their belief on what Cafaro said. And on this particular topic, front boss and all that crap, Cafaro lied or twisted the truth to make FBI look good. And just like Lenehan, Cafaro may have been an East Harlem fan boy, proud of what mobsters that neighborhood had produced.

Also the Lombardo as boss also included the time period before Genovese died. When I first started looking into lcn leadership history Lombardo was listed as acting boss from around 64 till 69. Which I thought was correct till I joined this forum. Now I know it was Catena as acting boss and Eboli as acting Underboss. Also I've seen where some have said he was acting boss before 64 too, all the way back to when Vito was imprisoned. Now it appears that he was only Official Boss for a couple of months and on a ruling panel for a few months. Maybe on a ruling panel few a short time in the early 70s.

Correct. I used to think too that Lombardo was some kind of superboss who secretly ruled his Family, using front bosses in a way that nobody, outside the Family or inside, knew he was the one at top. That´s all exciting in fiction. In reality though, that doesn´t work. He would have to have had a power base consisting of a large group of followers ready to enforce his way if the front boss said no to him. And the bigger the group, the bigger the risk of getting exposed, first to all the members and secondly to LE through informants.

No doubt, Lombardo was powerful and like many of the captains in that Family, he had some pull. But he was also absent a great deal of time in the 1970s. He suffered from a severe stroke in 1975 which kept him sidelined for several years. He was in no capacity to rule the Genovese Family. It seems to me that Lombardo was acting boss or co-boss, right after the Tommy Ryan murder, but sometime before October 1972, Tieri took over. First as acting boss and then as official boss when Catena decided to step down. All evidence, going through the files, seems to point that way,

Don't worry Hairy, I believe in your your findings.

Hairy and Frank make the most sense...

JIGGS

[JIGGS]

You wrote "You are rewriting history and when asked for evidence deny to provide." That sounds like an attack on Scott.

Sorry, thats bullshit. Youre seeing things which werent there. Both claims in the above statement are without prejudice.
A) 'You are rewriting history'
That Lombardo was shelved is a new and not insignificant claim which to my knowledge contradicts the known historical timeline.
Changing that is literally, rewriting history.
B) 'when asked for evidence, deny to provide'
This requires little explanation. I asked for corroboration and Scott chose to withheld.

It is "new" for you. But this claim you are referring to had been expressed years ago on the Real Deal Forum by a poster who, love him or hate him, spent a good part of his life rubbing elbows with 'Jersey' folk. Maybe he is the source? Or maybe not. The point is that the known historical timeline is also bullshit. No one, including the feds then or now, have the West Side figured out. The feds know more than anyone here. Particularly the players in question. But not everything. As such, anyone introducing a theory or history that makes sense should be discussed at the very least. Because it's only an online consensus that Phil Lombardo was the boss and Funzual was a front. Which is the most irresponsible assertion made by Wiki editors.

The narrative I subscribe to (which Lenehan introduced years back as the Picasso) was that Catena was acting Boss and became THE BOSS when Don Vitone passed away. While Catena was in prison for contempt, the West Side had Eboli "representing" its affairs (and not necessarily as boss but in the same capacity Fritzy Giovanelli was in at the Commission meeting called by JoeyM) while the power behind him was primarily Ben Turpin and Pete LaTempa. Catena is released and Funzi accepts becoming boss.

That's about as logical and sensible as any. Moreso than the timeline agreed upon by fanboy webpages. Tony Ducks and Fat Tony discussing "Ben" on a bug as being in a position of power doesn't negate Tieri's actual position during the 1970s. But that's what gets used to justify it.

Here's another thought. A potential reason members were told to steer clear from Tieri was not because he was shelved but because A. Tieri ordered it or B. Others decreed so for Tieri's benefit. Frank Tieri was under federal scrutiny and was headed for the fight of his life. The very first RICO indictment. Why have anyone making their way to see Funzi under the glare of such scrutiny? Tieri

JIGGS

Are you seriously justifying a profound statement such as Benny Squint Lomabardo being shelved as only 'new to me' (and a known legitimate theory on the course of events) because to use your words 'a poster on real deal mentioned this ten years ago' and maybe is Scotts source? This is your evidence or basis?
Thats honestly your argument?

But hey, if this guy knew some 'Joysey' folk n all, well, I guess that changes the sit.

Fuck me.

You know whats funny, in one sentence you say no one really knows anything about the Westside in the 70's and the very next, the VERY next, you follow up with 'the known historical timeline is bullshit.'

I do so love irony.

I know you have your fanboys here, best stick to replying to them. Waste of time here Jiggs.
Due respect.

I would recommend to you in the future, which I'll do myself after this post, to send a PM directly to posters who you have a gripe with. Your little constant get on your soapbox tirades are a waste of time for a thread that could be better served for discussion and not your bullshit outrage over what someone else thinks.

JIGGS

Have you really left the building jiggs?

A known 'journalist' makes one of the biggest claims conerning the 70's decade of NYC LCN in recent memory, is called upon to substantiate, fails to do so annnnnnddd.... a poster, (your good self) then rocks up on the scene supporting the claim basis....(wait for it, waaaait.....)...... 'some poster on a forum ten years ago who knew some people for Jersey!' ....... then, the pearl...... I'M on a soapbox and derailing discussion.



Fuck me mate, Ive now read it all.

You stated it was NEW info. My post was clarifying that it wasn't. The "some poster" in question was the Picasso (aka Steven the Lenehan). Do you remember the Picasso? The one who fucked your brains out and gave you the "cuntlapper" pet name? That's right. "Daddy."

Ya fuckin drama queen Ya. You're worse than a lesbian during that time of the month inside the fish store that doesn't take food stamps.

JIGGS

[Snakes]

Both of you cut it out. Squash it or take it to the Graveyard.

[Sol]

Both of you cut it out. Squash it or take it to the Graveyard.

Go fuck yourself you chink bastard.

JIGGS

Not very wise to disrespect the mods Jiggs, specially after you and Sonny just derailed a very good thread with you twos BS. Sonny why is it that it seem like you're the common denominator with majority of the BS that goes on around here? Both of you take this BS to the GY and keep it out of the main forum........Soliai

[SonnyBlackstein]

Sol: firstly, Jiggs brought up a post I made fucking ages ago. I responded.

I also stayed in point and topic.

Don’t blame me for putting out a fire someone else started, thanks.

And please don’t blame me for someone getting a spanking and then throwing a tantrum. I’ll own the spanking, not the tantrum.

[Sol]

It was just a question, but thank you anyways for the answer. Now let’s all move on.......Soliai

[Confederate]

Yes. I think Gigante took over in 81, but since Salerno mentioned Lombardo as more or less a superior it sounded like he was still top man. Maybe Lombardo and Gigante we're like Ricca and Accardo and Salerno was in the Giancana position.

The problem is in attempting to label these guys like it's an exact science. At least in the cases of the Genoveses and Chicago, this seems to be less of a big deal than in other families. For example, Giancana was the "boss" and referred to as such by both his peers and law enforcement, yet Ricca and Accardo were obviously his superiors. They did not have "labels," and over the years have had a lot of terms applied to them to try to describe their position when they were simply just the "guys in charge," nevermind that Giancana was the one described as "boss." Perhaps they didn't want "boss" to be associated with them to avoid the heat but if everyone knew then what was the difference? In Chicago, and less so in the Genovese, the guys in charge are "the guys in charge," regardless of how we try to label them.

Remember this posting because you nailed it 100%. In as far as the Outfit is concerned, labeling these guys in definitely not an exact science. Titles and Ranks with specific powers or limitations attached to them are really more suited for the U.S. Army rather than a Criminal organization that operates more on deception and secrecy.

[Wiseguy]

That specific notion that Funzi was a "front" for Lombardo in the 1970s came out in the last 10-15 years. There was never an issue before that.

From Cafaro's 1988 testimony (30 years ago) -

"Beginning in the early 1980's, Fat Tony Salerno was generally recognized on the streets as the boss of the Genovese family. In fact for years Fat Tony reported back to Phillip Lombardo, also known as Ben or Benny Squint.
In the 1960's, when Vito Genovese went to jail, he had turned over control of our brugad to Lombardo. Lombardo wanted to stay in the background and keep the heat off himself. So over the years, Tommy Ryan, then Eli Zaccardi, then Funzi Tieri, and finally Fat Tony, fronted as the bosses of the family while Lombardo controlled things from the background."

Is there a specific article you can cite where Jean Capeci or Rabbi Shlomo from the failing New York Times definitively expressed Ben Turpin was definitely the official boss and Tieri was acting for him? Specifically?

Capeci cites Cafaro's testimony in his book The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Mafia, as does Raab in his book Five Families.

Fish Cafaro is who expressed Dr. Phil was the boss of the Lombardo family. But he had also been outed as being manipulative with the truth, as per Barone.

If I remember correctly, Barone said Cafaro "did not fully cooperate with the FBI" in regards to info about Bellomo, who he had an agreement with if Cafaro's son Thomas was spared. Not in regards to the leadership of the family.

Outside of CI's citing Ben as the power in theb'60 or '70s, Phil Lombardo is only ever indirectly acknowledged as Tony Salerno's superior on the bug with the two Tony's. But its in the context of the time. It doesn't mean Funzi was doing what Fat Tony Soprano was doing from '81-'86. Speculation is still speculation.

That was the point of Lombardo staying in the background, no? So people wouldn't identify him as the one running the family.

People can believe Cafaro or not. My point is, the info he gave has been the generally accepted version of things ever since he flipped.

[Frank]

That specific notion that Funzi was a "front" for Lombardo in the 1970s came out in the last 10-15 years. There was never an issue before that.

From Cafaro's 1988 testimony (30 years ago) -

"Beginning in the early 1980's, Fat Tony Salerno was generally recognized on the streets as the boss of the Genovese family. In fact for years Fat Tony reported back to Phillip Lombardo, also known as Ben or Benny Squint.
In the 1960's, when Vito Genovese went to jail, he had turned over control of our brugad to Lombardo. Lombardo wanted to stay in the background and keep the heat off himself. So over the years, Tommy Ryan, then Eli Zaccardi, then Funzi Tieri, and finally Fat Tony, fronted as the bosses of the family while Lombardo controlled things from the background."

Is there a specific article you can cite where Jean Capeci or Rabbi Shlomo from the failing New York Times definitively expressed Ben Turpin was definitely the official boss and Tieri was acting for him? Specifically?

Capeci cites Cafaro's testimony in his book The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Mafia, as does Raab in his book Five Families.

Fish Cafaro is who expressed Dr. Phil was the boss of the Lombardo family. But he had also been outed as being manipulative with the truth, as per Barone.

If I remember correctly, Barone said Cafaro "did not fully cooperate with the FBI" in regards to info about Bellomo, who he had an agreement with if Cafaro's son Thomas was spared. Not in regards to the leadership of the family.

Outside of CI's citing Ben as the power in theb'60 or '70s, Phil Lombardo is only ever indirectly acknowledged as Tony Salerno's superior on the bug with the two Tony's. But its in the context of the time. It doesn't mean Funzi was doing what Fat Tony Soprano was doing from '81-'86. Speculation is still speculation.

That was the point of Lombardo staying in the background, no? So people wouldn't identify him as the one running the family.

People can believe Cafaro or not. My point is, the info he gave has been the generally accepted version of things ever since he flipped.

Wiseguy which one of the theories do you believe is most accurate?

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy which one of the theories do you believe is most accurate?

Given the subject in question, I suppose nothing is concrete, but I tend to lean towards the Cafaro version.

First, the MF documents are inconclusive at best and, as I said, it stands to reason some CI's would identify Lombardo as something else than the boss considering that was his intention.

Second, since this thread began, Cafaro has been made out to be a liar that can't be trusted on anything, as well as being overly-concerned with the image of the FBI. Unless I'm overlooking some other examples, other than his agreement with Bellomo to protect his son, him being intentionally dishonest about other things is just speculation to bolster the weight of the MF documents in support of the Tieri boss theory. Cafaro was very close to Fat Tony and was in a position to know more than most the leadership for the time period in question. And I don't see much of a motive on his part to lie about it, which could have jeopardized his deal with the feds.

Lastly, I haven't seen the feds or guys like Capeci or Raab question Cafaro's testimony about the family leadership in the over three decades since he flipped. Likewise, I haven't seen anything convincing enough to sway my opinion on it.

[Frank]

Wiseguy which one of the theories do you believe is most accurate?

Given the subject in question, I suppose nothing is concrete, but I tend to lean towards the Cafaro version.

First, the MF documents are inconclusive at best and, as I said, it stands to reason some CI's would identify Lombardo as something else than the boss considering that was his intention.

Second, since this thread began, Cafaro has been made out to be a liar that can't be trusted on anything, as well as being overly-concerned with the image of the FBI. Unless I'm overlooking some other examples, other than his agreement with Bellomo to protect his son, him being intentionally dishonest about other things is just speculation to bolster the weight of the MF documents in support of the Tieri boss theory. Cafaro was very close to Fat Tony and was in a position to know more than most the leadership for the time period in question. And I don't see much of a motive on his part to lie about it, which could have jeopardized his deal with the feds.

Lastly, I haven't seen the feds or guys like Capeci or Raab question Cafaro's testimony about the family leadership in the over three decades since he flipped. Likewise, I haven't seen anything convincing enough to sway my opinion on it.

The Lombardo as acting boss and then as official boss is a long time period. I think it's possible to believe some parts and not other parts. Like when Vito was still aliveand after he died. My point being that doesn't the evidence show to Catena was acting boss and Eboli acting underboss before Vito died? Then Catena and Eboli became official after Vito died? Then there was Catena going to prison and Eboli getting whacked. I think both opinions could be right or wrong. It looks like we have all the pieces, but have to put the puzzle together. Right now I believe the Tieri being Official, HairyKnuckles version.

[Wiseguy]

The Lombardo as acting boss and then as official boss is a long time period. I think it's possible to believe some parts and not other parts. Like when Vito was still aliveand after he died. My point being that doesn't the evidence show to Catena was acting boss and Eboli acting underboss before Vito died? Then Catena and Eboli became official after Vito died? Then there was Catena going to prison and Eboli getting whacked. I think both opinions could be right or wrong. It looks like we have all the pieces, but have to put the puzzle together. Right now I believe the Tieri being Official, HairyKnuckles version.

It's true Cafaro doesn't go into more detail about specific administration rankings of several of these guys over the time period in question, including between the time Genovese was imprisoned and died. I've seen so many theories for Catena, for instance, it's hard to know what to believe. But, as for being boss or acting boss, Cafaro didn't mention Catena. Just that Eboli, Zaccardi, Tieri, and Salerno were all acting bosses at different points with Lombardo directing things.

[newera_212]

Ben Turpin has to be one of the worst / insulting mob nicknames in history. I'd imagine no one called Lombardo this to his face?

Lombardo and the post-Vito, pre-Vince era of the Genovese is obviously the most facinating peice of LCN lore. I havent been around mob forums too long, maybe 8 or 9 years, but the topic has singlehandedly kept the boards flowing with discussion the entire time I've been around. Im just a fly on the wall with nothing to add, but wanted to say I appreciate the discussion and opinions, rumors and research interpretation from "all sides" of the debate.

I'm hazy with memory, but I remember a lot of Picasso's RD posts on the subject. Down to the green car Lombardo drove that Picasso saw him pull up in, when he was a kid. I don't know how the rumor started or who started it... whether it was Picasso himself or another poster 'close' with him... but I remember someone saying Picasso was a made guy, made by Tieri personally (with Dogs Lombardi being a part of the same alleged making ceremony). Not sure what to think of that one, but anyway...

I apologize for the low quality question but I wonder WHO started the Genovese tradition of obfuscating the administration, and more importantly WHY?? Is it tracable to a single person and event? By design? Or because of Vito's imprisonment and death, the chips fell that way and they rolled with it? its interesting because the Genovese are the "most LCN" when it comes to the rules and "the code" - always touted as the most traditional and oldschool - but have been the most unorthodox at the same time. Out of all the guys on the street they have, I bet only a small handful are plugged in enough to know the full layout of the admin

[Pogo The Clown]

I'm hazy with memory, but I remember a lot of Picasso's RD posts on the subject. Down to the green car Lombardo drove that Picasso saw him pull up in, when he was a kid. I don't know how the rumor started or who started it... whether it was Picasso himself or another poster 'close' with him... but I remember someone saying Picasso was a made guy, made by Tieri personally (with Dogs Lombardi being a part of the same alleged making ceremony). Not sure what to think of that one, but anyway...

He was full of shit. Picasso was exposed as Steve Lenehan. A low level Irish Associate who flipped in the 90s and who never was around the Genovese family.


Pogo

[dack2001]

I know that's your position Pogo, an albeit very consistent position, that Picasso was Lenahan. I didn't buy it when you said it 10 years ago and I still don't buy it now. Him and Smartened Up very defined in the groups they knew and associated with. Either they played a great, layered scam or its more internet vs. street grudge, which happens on these forums regularly. I don't want to get into a fight over it but I feel i'm not the only one who has been around for the last 18 years and doesn't buy it.