Relationship between Philly and Gambino’s now

[Pogo The Clown]

Pogo, you are entering on philly for your argument, but this was a coversation of everyone in general..I just don’t know how u can gauge,.u r talking indictment paperwork..I’ll give u a for instance, Gerry Angiulo 1980sindictment didn’t talk about his property, but I can attest Huntington realty trust properties were worth about 20mill in80s, never mentioned never talked about, today that property is worth. I’d say 250mill, and his kids tow equipment probably 100mill, again not mentioned in any indictments..you use indictments to fit your arguement, let’s go back to philly, u mention indictments from 20,25 years ago, let’s use merlino 2016 indictment, they supposedly had this 9 figure cream scam, know,I certainly don’t believe the numbers on that scam, BUT you can’t have it both ways, believe one but not the other...at day’s end, like any walk of life, some guys kill it, some don’t..some are brain surgeons, some are leaf blowers

I'm centering on Philly because that was the question that was asked and what we were discussing. As for the pain scream scam that was a Genovese/NY operation. Merlino was involved with it but Philly itself played no real role in it.


Pogo

[Pogo The Clown]

You put a nigerian out on the street, have them sell these for a couple, tree' bucks a piece. Who's not gonna say, "screw it, give me one.

Forget blue, red sells.

Here’s a couple numbers that have been revealed for Philly. Bent Finger Lou testified that he gave Borgesi and his wife $40k a year from the deleware county rackets. The 2011 indictment had Ligambi and co. controlling 92 joker poker machines. One newspaper report quoted a source saying that they can make $500-$1,000 a week per machine. If that’s split with the bar/restaurant owner, that’s $1.2 million to $2.4 million a year that the Philly family netted.

To add to this here is Natale talking about the streat tax and video poker business during the 90s. Shows just how little money these guy's were bringing in. When taken all in it is clear that Philly is not taking in big money (the tens or hundreds of millions a year that was suggested earlier).

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He also gave an overview of how the mob extorted money from bookmakers, drug dealers and other criminals, especially at Christmas. And on FBI tapes, Natale coached his consigliere, Mazzone, on how to turn a profit with his sports book, despite deadbeat bookmakers.

Natale regarded any illegal activities the purview of La Cosa Nostra, and required those who dealt in gambling, video poker and drugs to pay a "street tax" to continue to operate.

In early 1995, Natale said Merlino organized a "little banquet" for 40 to 50 bookmakers. At a table in the back of the banquet hall, the pair assigned each bookmaker to one of the eight or nine "La Cosa Nostra men" responsible for collecting a weekly "street tax."

"La Cosa Nostra operates on one thing and one thing only - sheer terror," said Natale. "Anybody not turning in money. . .could be hurt, maybe severely, maybe killed."

"We extorted money every week and a big amount at Christmas," he added. Sometimes, Natale would ask for a "loan," with no intention of paying it back.

Natale testified that Milicia's partner, Louis Procacinni, had said they had been operating in the red and had avoided making the payments since early 1995.

Finally, Natale asked Mazzone to get his father-in-law, Joseph Malone, to arrange a meeting with Procaccini. Malone managed Procacinni's gambling business.

After meeting with Merlino and Natale, Procacinni figured it was better to give Natale a $50,000 so-called "loan." Milicia, however, balked.

"He's a hardhead. He don't want to meet with you guys," said Procaccini, according to Natale.

"Do what you have to do," Natale testified he told Merlino. Defendant George Borgesi was to arrange for crash cars, walkie-talkies and a gunman to use a shotgun.

A few days after the botched hit, Natale said he met with Gambino and Merlino in a South Philadelphia bar.

"I tried the best I could. Who the hell knows what happened? [Milicia's girlfriend] started screaming, glass shattered," Natale testified that Gambino and Merlino had told him.

"Maybe it'll still have the same effect," Natale told them. "Maybe it'll still bring everyone in to us."

Natale later met with Milicia, after he recovered, and Milicia and Procaccini willingly paid $1,000 each to Merlino and Natale.

The mob took 15 to 20 of their video-poker machines, forbade them to open new stops and took over their 12th and Annin streets restaurant, Gino's Cafe, Natale said. Then they pooled old and new machines, and 10 LCN members received about $1,000 weekly.

In return, Natale said the mob promised to repay the vendors for taking over the restaurant, which Natale planned to give to Borgesi's uncle, Joseph Ligambi, now considered Philadelphia's acting mob boss.

"We started making a lot of money from video poker," he said.

In June 1998, Natale was arrested on parole violations. Merlino and Borgesi sent him only $600, and his wife and girlfriend received only a couple of thousand dollars each, he said.

[TJ]

Lol, hope irs aint relying in natales testimony to collect from people..havent.we established pretty much that they made a jerkoff out of natale and made him think he was boss?.but now, we are to.believe they were honest and turned in real numbers to natale...read the cream scam papers again pogo, joey was talking with the doctors not the guys on arthur ave...

[Pogo The Clown]

Natale was still privy to the information seeing as he was directly involved with it. Here is what Nick Caramandi had to say about the street tax. It matches up with Natale.

Collection of the street tax began decades ago in the early days of this family but was aban- doned in the early 1940's. It was reinstated by Scarfo when he became boss. However, revenue from it has dwindled in recent years. For example, soldier-turned-informant Nicholas Caramandi testified that between 1982 and 1984, he and his partner, LCN member Charles Iannece collected a total of $6,000 to $8,000 a week from 60 to 80 bookmakers. But he said that the amount declined to about $4,000 a week by 1986 because many bookies said they couldn't afford the tax and went out of business.

So Philly was making 6-8 grand a week during the early 80s (adjusted for inflation that is about 15-20 grand today) collecting a tax from 60-80 bookmakers. The number declined to 4 grand by 1986 because so many independent bookies went out of business (looks to be about 1/4-1/2 of them from the drop in money). This matches up with Natale saying they were collecting a tax from 40-50 bookies in 1995.


Natales description of how the street tax and the video poker money was divided among members also matches up with how it was done during the Scarfo era

C. THE SHAKEDOWN OPERATION

In early 1982, Scarfo approved a scheme to extort money from drug dealers and bookmakers. Ciancaglini told DelGiorno that he and Pat Spirito, with Scarfo's permission, had formed a crew, made up of Charles Iannece, Nicholas Caramandi, and Ralph Staino, to extort or "shake down" bookmakers, and suggested that DelGiorno form a similar crew. Ciancaglini was in charge of the crew and Spirito, a made member, was responsible for directly supervising its activities. The crew received half of the proceeds from the shakedowns, and the remainder was equally divided among Scarfo, Ciancaglini, Salvatore Merlino, Philip Leonetti, Lawrence Merlino and Frank Monte. After Frank Monte was killed in 1982, Salvatore Testa received his share of the shakedown proceeds, until he too was killed on September 14, 1984. Victims of the shakedowns were told that they would be killed if they failed to pay the "street tax."

Eventually, additional crews were formed and the coconspirators extended their shakedown operations to include drug dealers. Although bookmakers paid regular sums every week, receipts from drug dealers, called "extras," were more sporadic, because "drug dealers don't work every week." In an average month, the shakedown proceeds ranged from $ 24,000 to $ 40,000. It is not clear from the record whether this sum included the "extras" from drug dealers.

Here is Tommy DelGiorno's testimony regarding how many guy's got a cut from the street tax. Again it matches up with Natale.

Q: After Salvatore Merlino and Larry Merlino were taken down in early 1986, did the division of the shake or elbow change?
A: Yes
Q: How did it change?
A: It was split between Scarfo, Leonetti, Faffy, me, Ciancaglini still got his end. He gave Joe Grande 400 a month. He gave the blade [Virgilio] 200 a month, gave Nicky Whip 200 a month, and he gave Salvatore Scafidi 200 a month.
Q: When you say "He," who are you talking about giving those people that money per month?
A: Scarfo.
Q: What part of the shake money did that division that you just talked about come out of?
A: That came out of the stuff that they got every week.
Q: And what about the people who were still doing the shakedowns, what percentage of the money did they get?
A: Half.
Q: Do you know what the reason was that the people who you mentioned, Nicholas Virgilio, Salvatore Scafidi, Joe Grande, got the money from the shakes per month?
A: Well, they were in Philip's regime and they did things for Scarfo, errands, I guess, or jobs, whatever you want to call them.

[Teddy Persico]

Natale also testified that he made $4k a week ($200k a year) during his tenure as boss.

[TJ]

If.natale.told me the yellow thing in the sky was called the sun,.id have a hard time.believing him, but thats just me..so let.me get this straight,.in all the docs u read,.and pretty much common knowledge.on all yhese sites, natale.is looked upon as uncle junior, a dope they propped up to take the fall..BUT,.u believe that because they told natale they made x, y or z, we are suppose to believe in that instant they told natale the truth? ..above you state ' he was privy.because he was directly involved'...directly involved in what? We.have been made to.believe they told him whatever they wanted to tell him, so, why do yoi believe they told him the truth on the street tax, or bettwr yet, whatever else they.were making?

[Wiseguy]

You put a nigerian out on the street, have them sell these for a couple, tree' bucks a piece. Who's not gonna say, "screw it, give me one.

Forget blue, red sells.

Here’s a couple numbers that have been revealed for Philly. Bent Finger Lou testified that he gave Borgesi and his wife $40k a year from the deleware county rackets. The 2011 indictment had Ligambi and co. controlling 92 joker poker machines. One newspaper report quoted a source saying that they can make $500-$1,000 a week per machine. If that’s split with the bar/restaurant owner, that’s $1.2 million to $2.4 million a year that the Philly family netted.

To add to this here is Natale talking about the streat tax and video poker business during the 90s. Shows just how little money these guy's were bringing in. When taken all in it is clear that Philly is not taking in big money (the tens or hundreds of millions a year that was suggested earlier).

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He also gave an overview of how the mob extorted money from bookmakers, drug dealers and other criminals, especially at Christmas. And on FBI tapes, Natale coached his consigliere, Mazzone, on how to turn a profit with his sports book, despite deadbeat bookmakers.

Natale regarded any illegal activities the purview of La Cosa Nostra, and required those who dealt in gambling, video poker and drugs to pay a "street tax" to continue to operate.

In early 1995, Natale said Merlino organized a "little banquet" for 40 to 50 bookmakers. At a table in the back of the banquet hall, the pair assigned each bookmaker to one of the eight or nine "La Cosa Nostra men" responsible for collecting a weekly "street tax."

"La Cosa Nostra operates on one thing and one thing only - sheer terror," said Natale. "Anybody not turning in money. . .could be hurt, maybe severely, maybe killed."

"We extorted money every week and a big amount at Christmas," he added. Sometimes, Natale would ask for a "loan," with no intention of paying it back.

Natale testified that Milicia's partner, Louis Procacinni, had said they had been operating in the red and had avoided making the payments since early 1995.

Finally, Natale asked Mazzone to get his father-in-law, Joseph Malone, to arrange a meeting with Procaccini. Malone managed Procacinni's gambling business.

After meeting with Merlino and Natale, Procacinni figured it was better to give Natale a $50,000 so-called "loan." Milicia, however, balked.

"He's a hardhead. He don't want to meet with you guys," said Procaccini, according to Natale.

"Do what you have to do," Natale testified he told Merlino. Defendant George Borgesi was to arrange for crash cars, walkie-talkies and a gunman to use a shotgun.

A few days after the botched hit, Natale said he met with Gambino and Merlino in a South Philadelphia bar.

"I tried the best I could. Who the hell knows what happened? [Milicia's girlfriend] started screaming, glass shattered," Natale testified that Gambino and Merlino had told him.

"Maybe it'll still have the same effect," Natale told them. "Maybe it'll still bring everyone in to us."

Natale later met with Milicia, after he recovered, and Milicia and Procaccini willingly paid $1,000 each to Merlino and Natale.

The mob took 15 to 20 of their video-poker machines, forbade them to open new stops and took over their 12th and Annin streets restaurant, Gino's Cafe, Natale said. Then they pooled old and new machines, and 10 LCN members received about $1,000 weekly.

In return, Natale said the mob promised to repay the vendors for taking over the restaurant, which Natale planned to give to Borgesi's uncle, Joseph Ligambi, now considered Philadelphia's acting mob boss.

"We started making a lot of money from video poker," he said.

In June 1998, Natale was arrested on parole violations. Merlino and Borgesi sent him only $600, and his wife and girlfriend received only a couple of thousand dollars each, he said.

Going from court testimony by Procaccini, the mob took over an M&P video poker route, owned by Milicia and Procaccini, which consisted of 34 machines in 21 locations. Procaccini said the video poker portion of his business was taking in $7,000 to $10,000 a month or $84,000 to $120,000 a year in 2001.

JMA (ran by Ligambi, Massimino, and Staino) had their operation raided twice - first in 2001 in which 34 machines were seized, and a second time in 2009 when about 50 machines were seized. They moved in on M&P shortly after the first raid. At the time of the 2011 bust, the feds said JMA had 86 machines but I think that simply was a combination of the machines from both raids.

The feds said that between July 2002 and June 2009, $684,073 was deposited into JMA business accounts. Though that may not have been the total they were actually making, it falls within the range Procaccini mentioned.

Anyway, it appears Ligambi, Massimino, and Staino were splitting about $100k a year from video poker, though I imagine some of that went to Merlino. And when Mazzone was caught on video ranting in the street after the second raid, it seemed he had a personal interest in the operation as well.

[Rocco]

the whole meeting arranged by Licata and Skins(nj guys). There was really no relationship between the ny guys and south philly guys until that day.

Blatantly untrue. In the transcripts Trucchio mentions wanting to be re-introduced to Eric Esposito since he was recently made. Trucchio and other Gambino guys went to Esposito's wedding in '07; he married a Corozzo daughter. Lancellotti and Massimino were mentioned frequently by Gambino members. NY and Philly are close in proximity, these guys interact more than you think.

Fair enough..I wasn't specific and that's my fault. I was referencing the people sitting at the table day the Skins was recording the meeting(Ligambi, Staino Gambino bros,Trucchio, Lorenzo Mannino, Roccaforte). Licata and Skins brought that meeting together. Though there is a possibility that Ligambi could have had some interaction with the Gambino Bros in the early 80s when they were cherry hill based. We know that some LCN members from different families from New England to Philly know each other and have some interaction. Connections like the ones you mentioned and of course those that originate in prison and remain when they get out. Do you know how Esposito met a Corozzo daughter? Prison? She lived in Philly area? Is she hot? Big fake cans?

[SonnyBlackstein]

If.natale.told me the yellow thing in the sky was called the sun,.id have a hard time.believing him, but thats just me..so let.me get this straight,.in all the docs u read,.and pretty much common knowledge.on all yhese sites, natale.is looked upon as uncle junior, a dope they propped up to take the fall..BUT,.u believe that because they told natale they made x, y or z, we are suppose to believe in that instant they told natale the truth? ..above you state ' he was privy.because he was directly involved'...directly involved in what? We.have been made to.believe they told him whatever they wanted to tell him, so, why do yoi believe they told him the truth on the street tax, or bettwr yet, whatever else they.were making?

+1

[Pogo The Clown]

Yes Natale was directly involved in the operation, re-read the piece. Even if you foolishly want to disregard everything Natale has to say you still have Caramandi, DelGiorno, Veasey, Previte and every other member informant saying similar things. You also have 30 years worth of indictments and seizures to look at. Yet we are supposed to disregard all of that and go with your baseless assumptions and speculation?


Pogo

[TJ]

Pogo, havent insulted you, not sure why you would go that road..so, please tell.me and the boars what my 'baseless assumptions'.are?.have i made any assumptions or said what any of these guys make? No, that would be you who has done that, not me, what i said, if cant read so well, is that you cant lump these guys all together, take each case individually,.some guys make a lot of money, some dont, just like any other type of income streams, but you want to blanket them all and say they don't make as much, and you do it on the word in natale. You tell me to re reas the piece you sent, as if that proves that natale was privy, i won't waste a second of my time reading something natale has testified too, but you take as law the words of someone who 18 years later decided to remember that carlo gambino and angelo bruno made him, but neglected to mention that is those 302s that you love to jerkoff too in the 90s..my point here is, natale has been established as a clown, who was in the dark with much of what these guys were doing,.yet,.he was.privy to what they put in their pocket? Sure, they files a sales ans expense report with him, im sure...i have no stated what these guys have made, the only fact i stated regarded the anguilo huntingtin real estate trust, which i know u cant find in your 302s or whatever other paperwork u read, but its.not hard.to.find, go to each county in mass and search it, u will see the properties, then zillow them, and use yoir caclulator, and thats the only thing ive labeled as fact here, oh amd gj towings equipment, u can look that up too...everything else i said exactly the way the world works, some guys make 13an hour, some 4 million a year, like in any walk of like..my opinion, the gnp of the mob is the same as it always was, some guys broke, some middle claaa and some 1npercenters...and my other oponion, is ralph natale is a full of ahit liar..u bring up delgiorno, u realize that he went into wpp 32 yeara ago? Veascey admisttedly around his frienda for what 6 months? And the one thing previte ratted on merlino for he got aquitted, but, ok, good guys to cast your vote with..again for the 100th time, not saying theae particular guys are knocking them dead and making milliona, what im saying is you cant put a blanket statement in them, i didnt one way or the other, so for you to say 'baseless assumptions' is as far from accurate as you can get...

[willychichi]

Pogo, havent insulted you, not sure why you would go that road..so, please tell.me and the boars what my 'baseless assumptions'.are?.have i made any assumptions or said what any of these guys make? No, that would be you who has done that, not me, what i said, if cant read so well, is that you cant lump these guys all together, take each case individually,.some guys make a lot of money, some dont, just like any other type of income streams, but you want to blanket them all and say they don't make as much, and you do it on the word in natale. You tell me to re reas the piece you sent, as if that proves that natale was privy, i won't waste a second of my time reading something natale has testified too, but you take as law the words of someone who 18 years later decided to remember that carlo gambino and angelo bruno made him, but neglected to mention that is those 302s that you love to jerkoff too in the 90s..my point here is, natale has been established as a clown, who was in the dark with much of what these guys were doing,.yet,.he was.privy to what they put in their pocket? Sure, they files a sales ans expense report with him, im sure...i have no stated what these guys have made, the only fact i stated regarded the anguilo huntingtin real estate trust, which i know u cant find in your 302s or whatever other paperwork u read, but its.not hard.to.find, go to each county in mass and search it, u will see the properties, then zillow them, and use yoir caclulator, and thats the only thing ive labeled as fact here, oh amd gj towings equipment, u can look that up too...everything else i said exactly the way the world works, some guys make 13an hour, some 4 million a year, like in any walk of like..my opinion, the gnp of the mob is the same as it always was, some guys broke, some middle claaa and some 1npercenters...and my other oponion, is ralph natale is a full of ahit liar..u bring up delgiorno, u realize that he went into wpp 32 yeara ago? Veascey admisttedly around his frienda for what 6 months? And the one thing previte ratted on merlino for he got aquitted, but, ok, good guys to cast your vote with..again for the 100th time, not saying theae particular guys are knocking them dead and making milliona, what im saying is you cant put a blanket statement in them, i didnt one way or the other, so for you to say 'baseless assumptions' is as far from accurate as you can get...

Lets not make any personal attacks and just stay on topic. If you want to keep banging your head against the wall trying to convince Pogo of something he doesn't agree with then do it without the personal attacks. Thanks

[TJ]

Baaeless aasumptions was the first shot fired, i made no assumptions..willy, are u a monitor? If not, who are u to just step in? Im not trying to convince pogo of anything, im just pointing out his point of view paints people with a broad brush, thats all..

[willychichi]

Baaeless aasumptions was the first shot fired, i made no assumptions..willy, are u a monitor? If not, who are u to just step in? Im not trying to convince pogo of anything, im just pointing out his point of view paints people with a broad brush, thats all..

Yes I'm one of the moderators, you can make your argument without the personal shots like "those 302s that you love to jerkoff too". Back to the topic at hand. Thanks

[TJ]

No problem