B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 6:58 pm
What part of it are you having issue with?
Castellano didn't kill John Gambino, Pietro Inzerillo (Nino and Giuseppe's brother), or any number of other Inzerillo clan members in and around the Gambino Family even though I'm sure Greco and Riina would have been happy to have them killed as well. He killed Nino Inzerillo because Nino defied his boss's order not to intervene in the Sicilian war. We know from Naimo that John Gambino in contrast did exactly what he was told to do and when he did try to help his relatives he followed protocol and did it the proper way. He also killed his own relative Nino Inzerillo when ordered because Inzerillo did the opposite of what he was told to do.
Castellano was immensely wealthy, had a Family of 200-300 members, and thousands of associates -- he was arguably more powerful than anyone in the Sicilian mafia -- it's not like Greco or Riina could force him to kill a captain of his own Family just because they were out to remove the Inzerillos from power in Palermo. Inzerillo was specifically killed because he defied his boss's orders and was meddling in a Sicilian mafia conflict. His actions made Castellano look bad and had the potential to entangle the Gambino Family in an international conflict so Castellano had him killed. It was mutually beneficial in that Castellano got rid of a rogue capodecina who wasn't listening to his boss and Greco/Riina got rid of a powerful Inzerillo relative.
Members of American Families aren't allowed to meddle in the affairs of Sicilian Families and vice versa. Nino Inzerillo didn't just defy Castellano, he was breaking a long-established rule designed to preserve the autonomy of the American and Sicilian branches of Cosa Nostra.
Actually two things here.....
1. Castellano kinda DID allow the Genovese Family to pressure him into killing his own capo. He was definitely susceptible to outside influence.
2. What about Three Fingers Coppola, a soldier, basically " picking" the Partanico boss in what...... the 30s or 40s? Or was it the 50s?
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:09 am
2. What about Three Fingers Coppola, a soldier, basically " picking" the Partanico boss in what...... the 30s or 40s? Or was it the 50s?
Coppola was expelled from the USA in 1948. He spent some time in Mexico before returning to Italy permanently in 1951.
He was never the boss of Partinico, but he was clearly its most influential member. The boss during those years was a guy named Giovanni Stellino. I'm not sure when Nenè "Il Vecchio" Geraci became the boss.
A similar case is Vincenzo Rimi, who is often described as the boss of Alcamo, although it seems he wasn't.
Maybe there is evidence that this is false i missed however reading some stuff Angelo and B. have posted i've came to a belief about Joe Masseria's rise. I think it makes sense that he could have been running a gang but not a Mafia Family made up of Italian's who weren't from the areas you typically had to be from to be made into the NYC Families. Then when the Morello/Terranova's go to War they become associated with Masseria's street gang for support/muscle eventually leading to Masseria being recognized as a Boss at the conclusion. For me it explains how he both became a Boss and became important enough to the Morello's that he could become their Boss as he had a readymade powerbase. It also explains how they became the non geographically bound family as they were initially a varied Italian Street gang. I have to think that some of those Italians from different areas became frustrated at their lack of upwards mobility and looked for other opportunities. Masseria was from Agrigento himself from what i understand and i don't believe there was an Agrigento Family in NYC at the time?
Again this may be completely false it's just something that came to mind through reading threads here largely.
Former FBI Agent “Big Jack” Garcia testified at the 2012 trial of Ligambi and Borgesi that he was stumped to learn that D’Ambrosia wasn’t dead after being involved in the alleged plot. “He must have gotten a pass,” Garcia told jurors. “I don’t have any inside information as to why he had a pass, but he does.”
Wonder if this is how Merlino got the building he has now.
B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 6:58 pm
What part of it are you having issue with?
Castellano didn't kill John Gambino, Pietro Inzerillo (Nino and Giuseppe's brother), or any number of other Inzerillo clan members in and around the Gambino Family even though I'm sure Greco and Riina would have been happy to have them killed as well. He killed Nino Inzerillo because Nino defied his boss's order not to intervene in the Sicilian war. We know from Naimo that John Gambino in contrast did exactly what he was told to do and when he did try to help his relatives he followed protocol and did it the proper way. He also killed his own relative Nino Inzerillo when ordered because Inzerillo did the opposite of what he was told to do.
Castellano was immensely wealthy, had a Family of 200-300 members, and thousands of associates -- he was arguably more powerful than anyone in the Sicilian mafia -- it's not like Greco or Riina could force him to kill a captain of his own Family just because they were out to remove the Inzerillos from power in Palermo. Inzerillo was specifically killed because he defied his boss's orders and was meddling in a Sicilian mafia conflict. His actions made Castellano look bad and had the potential to entangle the Gambino Family in an international conflict so Castellano had him killed. It was mutually beneficial in that Castellano got rid of a rogue capodecina who wasn't listening to his boss and Greco/Riina got rid of a powerful Inzerillo relative.
Members of American Families aren't allowed to meddle in the affairs of Sicilian Families and vice versa. Nino Inzerillo didn't just defy Castellano, he was breaking a long-established rule designed to preserve the autonomy of the American and Sicilian branches of Cosa Nostra.
Actually two things here.....
1. Castellano kinda DID allow the Genovese Family to pressure him into killing his own capo. He was definitely susceptible to outside influence.
2. What about Three Fingers Coppola, a soldier, basically " picking" the Partanico boss in what...... the 30s or 40s? Or was it the 50s?
They're all susceptible to outside influence for sure. It's a tight network and they don't operate in a vacuum.
Beyond the basic "Paul killed one of our capos as a favor to the Genovese" narrative pushed by Castellano's killers (and told by Gravano) I can't recall seeing a breakdown of what actually happened. Maybe there is something and I'm forgetting but I'm not aware of the actual motivation for the murder or what led to it. Castellano might have done it as a favor for the Genovese (and wouldn't be the first to kill someone because of a beef with another Family) but I also don't trust Gravano's oversimplified hearsay version -- it's not like the Genovese Family told Castellano, "Hey, kill this guy for us" and that was it.
Coppola was an international node in the Partinicese network for decades so it isn't surprising if he influenced Family politics in his hometown. He also had relatives who ended up being made in Partinico. I'm not familiar with the story about him picking the boss but it still would have required an election and for the Family to agree on the new boss. Every boss election involves someone influential proposing a candidate and usually members meet secretly beforehand to build support for their candidate. Did Coppola "choose" the boss or did he suggest a candidate and convince people to vote for him? There's a difference even if the result is the same.
With Inzerillo, it's not that there were no outside influences. Obviously there were Sicilian mafia leaders who wanted him dead too but Inzerillo's murder was ultimately an internal Gambino Family affair because he was ordered not to involve himself in the war, he did anyway, and his boss had him killed.
Here's another fun one I believe with no evidence: They're still actively killing guys, they're just smart about it.
These "phantom" homicides I'm thinking of take the form of either disappearances, or are made to look like ordinary violence among low-levels criminals (like the Bobby English hit in Chicago was alleged to be), or are forced drug overdoses (like Crystal Quinn was alleged to be). I bet there have been several of these since Meldish. Low-level criminals and other lowlifes, the kinds of guys no one would be surprised are killed, vanish, or OD, but who are actually carefully concealed American Cosa Nostra hits.
I have zero real evidence for this, but it's something I suspect.
B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 6:58 pmCastellano was immensely wealthy, had a Family of 200-300 members, and thousands of associates -- he was arguably more powerful than anyone in the Sicilian mafia --
I don't know, Riina was the closest thing to a true "boss of bosses" since Morello, Masseria, etc.
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:09 am1. Castellano kinda DID allow the Genovese Family to pressure him into killing his own capo. He was definitely susceptible to outside influence.
If I remember right, the Genovese family were the ones to kill Piccolo after Castellano agreed to the hit.
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:09 am
2. What about Three Fingers Coppola, a soldier, basically " picking" the Partanico boss in what...... the 30s or 40s? Or was it the 50s?
Coppola was expelled from the USA in 1948. He spent some time in Mexico before returning to Italy permanently in 1951.
He was never the boss of Partinico, but he was clearly its most influential member. The boss during those years was a guy named Giovanni Stellino. I'm not sure when Nenè "Il Vecchio" Geraci became the boss.
A similar case is Vincenzo Rimi, who is often described as the boss of Alcamo, although it seems he wasn't.
Is that the same boss named Geraci that B. posted about? That visited NY and had an audience with Castellano?
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:09 am
2. What about Three Fingers Coppola, a soldier, basically " picking" the Partanico boss in what...... the 30s or 40s? Or was it the 50s?
Coppola was expelled from the USA in 1948. He spent some time in Mexico before returning to Italy permanently in 1951.
He was never the boss of Partinico, but he was clearly its most influential member. The boss during those years was a guy named Giovanni Stellino. I'm not sure when Nenè "Il Vecchio" Geraci became the boss.
A similar case is Vincenzo Rimi, who is often described as the boss of Alcamo, although it seems he wasn't.
Is that the same boss named Geraci that B. posted about? That visited NY and had an audience with Castellano?
Not sure, there was 2 Nenè Geraci, they were cousins and both member of the Cupola. "Il Vecchio" was arrested in 1984 and was succeeded by his cousin "Il Giovanne".
But considering the dates I would say it's indeed "Il Vecchio" who met Castellano in NY
B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 6:58 pmCastellano was immensely wealthy, had a Family of 200-300 members, and thousands of associates -- he was arguably more powerful than anyone in the Sicilian mafia --
I don't know, Riina was the closest thing to a true "boss of bosses" since Morello, Masseria, etc.
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:09 am1. Castellano kinda DID allow the Genovese Family to pressure him into killing his own capo. He was definitely susceptible to outside influence.
If I remember right, the Genovese family were the ones to kill Piccolo after Castellano agreed to the hit.
I think Riina was more of a Boss of Bosses than Morello, Masseria, etc even though he never had the title and they did.
Ivan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 5:09 pm
Here's another fun one I believe with no evidence: They're still actively killing guys, they're just smart about it.
These "phantom" homicides I'm thinking of take the form of either disappearances, or are made to look like ordinary violence among low-levels criminals (like the Bobby English hit in Chicago was alleged to be), or are forced drug overdoses (like Crystal Quinn was alleged to be). I bet there have been several of these since Meldish. Low-level criminals and other lowlifes, the kinds of guys no one would be surprised are killed, vanish, or OD, but who are actually carefully concealed American Cosa Nostra hits.
I have zero real evidence for this, but it's something I suspect.
I believe this as well… There are several people at the periphery of these alleged mob connected DTO’s in Buffalo that have mysteriously died at a relatively young age (i.e. Raniero Masecchia 2009, Bart G Mazzara 2019, and others come to mind.) Makes me wonder if they or OD/hot dosed. Nothing really written about these deaths, just a question I’ve had in the back of my mind from the obituaries I’ve read.
I did say "arguably" more powerful than anyone in the Sicilian mafia as arguments could be made either way but my point wasn't to argue "who was more powerful," it's that Castellano was in no way subservient to the Sicilian mafia. He didn't have Inzerillo killed simply because the Corleonese faction bullied him into it, he issued an order to his captain and that captain disregarded the order.
Barney hasn’t discussed a crime in 10 years and rarely receives any tribute.
Since killings have gone down, the gov operates many more CIs or allows dry snitches to remain on the streets.
I think some high level guys who haven’t faced a single change in 15 years have given up something.
Basciano still holds some amount of sway from prison.
Ivan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 5:09 pm
Here's another fun one I believe with no evidence: They're still actively killing guys, they're just smart about it.
These "phantom" homicides I'm thinking of take the form of either disappearances, or are made to look like ordinary violence among low-levels criminals (like the Bobby English hit in Chicago was alleged to be), or are forced drug overdoses (like Crystal Quinn was alleged to be). I bet there have been several of these since Meldish. Low-level criminals and other lowlifes, the kinds of guys no one would be surprised are killed, vanish, or OD, but who are actually carefully concealed American Cosa Nostra hits.
I have zero real evidence for this, but it's something I suspect.
I believe this as well… There are several people at the periphery of these alleged mob connected DTO’s in Buffalo that have mysteriously died at a relatively young age (i.e. Raniero Masecchia 2009, Bart G Mazzara 2019, and others come to mind.) Makes me wonder if they or OD/hot dosed. Nothing really written about these deaths, just a question I’ve had in the back of my mind from the obituaries I’ve read.
Agreed. I think murders are a rare occurence, and they tend to avoid any murder that would be easy for law enforcement to connect to LCN. Well known made guys for example. However, if a poor latino, white, or black street guy is killed due to whatever beef? Not so easily tied to OC.
