The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Discuss all mafia families in the U.S., Canada, Italy, and everywhere else in the world.

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Ivan
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Ivan »

johnny_scootch wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 6:41 am You don’t agree that having a Boss, Underboss, at least one Captain and several soldiers and associates that we know about counts as structured?

Imo The Buffalo family seems to be most like Chicago at this point in time. Both viable both structured but absolute shells of their former selves.
I haven't really kept close track of the Buffalo stuff but we don't have any hard proclamations from the feds etc. to put them in the "viable family" category rather than the "still gangsters doing mafia stuff but not on the scale of a viable family" category.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a Cosa Nostra presence. Also "viable" is super subjective here, I go by the feds' fiat version the term (i.e., a family is "viable" when they say it is) but it's not like that was handed down on tablets to Moses and I'll admit it's super reductive. (Hell even my expanded 5-tier systems doesn't quite catch get it and it's probably better to examine the families and even individual gangsters on a case-by-case basis. Arguing about viable vs. nonviable isn't very illuminating and is a good way to drive yourself nuts, judging from this forum.)
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Newyorkempire »

Ivan wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:02 pm
johnny_scootch wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 6:41 am You don’t agree that having a Boss, Underboss, at least one Captain and several soldiers and associates that we know about counts as structured?

Imo The Buffalo family seems to be most like Chicago at this point in time. Both viable both structured but absolute shells of their former selves.
I haven't really kept close track of the Buffalo stuff but we don't have any hard proclamations from the feds etc. to put them in the "viable family" category rather than the "still gangsters doing mafia stuff but not on the scale of a viable family" category.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a Cosa Nostra presence. Also "viable" is super subjective here, I go by the feds' fiat version the term (i.e., a family is "viable" when they say it is) but it's not like that was handed down on tablets to Moses and I'll admit it's super reductive. (Hell even my expanded 5-tier systems doesn't quite catch get it and it's probably better to examine the families and even individual gangsters on a case-by-case basis. Arguing about viable vs. nonviable isn't very illuminating and is a good way to drive yourself nuts, judging from this forum.)
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by sdeitche »

Wiseguy wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 7:12 pm All of the families listed under "defunct" and "possibly extant but no longer functioning" were essentially finished by the end of the 1980s. The one exception might be Pittsburgh who, along with Buffalo and Detroit, lasted through the 1990s.
Tampa was active through the Raffa indictment in 2000, then faded down from there. The FDLE and FBI had three active investigations in the early 2000s related to mob influence in the courts/political corruption.
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by johnny_scootch »

Ivan wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:02 pmAlso "viable" is super subjective here, I go by the feds' fiat version the term (i.e., a family is "viable" when they say it is)
I get what you’re saying here but me to Buffalo is certainly viable by my definition. Or at least I would say they were certainly viable not too many years ago when they were promoting administration members, captains, making new members, recruiting and networking with other families. All those things to me is what makes a family viable, one that is functioning at all levels even though it’s overall size and power has been reduced considerably.
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Teflon Dom »

NickleCity wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 7:26 pm
Pogo The Clown wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 6:06 pm That is putting it mildly. As small and weak as they are NE, NJ and Chicago are still recognized as existing by the Feds and (at least until very recently) we see regular cases against them. On the other hand the Feds haven’t recognized Buffalo going on 20 years (if not longer). And it has been almost as long since we have seen an LCN case out of Detroit. Night and day.


Pogo
Hey Pogo, what is your source for Feds not recognizing Buffalo 20 years or more ago?

We have Lee Coppola who is a book reviewer when he writes an opinion piece for the Buffalo News in 98 called The Withered Arm. He worked for BN from 67-83. Broadcast News from 83-93, and then an assistant DA prosecuting drug organizations from 92-96 under Dennis Vacco whom Ron Fino suggests was placed by the Buffalo mob. Interesting he had several uncles involved in the mob, a couple of them heavily involved and one who was involved in drug trafficking and described by LE as well respected with mafiosos on both sides of the border.

Then there is the Niagara Gazette article where their intern Jessica Wasmund who appears to have gotten most of her story from Coppola and quotes him as saying, “Maggadino’s death was the nail in the coffin” of the Buffalo mob and the writes:
“Today, despite rumors that what was once the Magaddino family still operates here, federal organized crime investigators say those tales just aren’t true. They say small numbers of loosely associated individuals may still get together to commit what once were Mafia style crimes, but it’s not like the old days.”
But she doesn’t attribute this to any particular Federal LE officer or agency.

Then there is the Niagara Falls Reporter opinion rag article called the Mob May Be Dead but Not Forgotten written by Mike Hudson. In it he indicates the feds adjusted the family chart in 2006 to reflect that Joe Todaro Jr had stepped down from acting boss and that Leonard Falzone was promoted to the position with Nicoletti becoming the underboss.

Here is the problem with Hudson’s article:
1. The paper is an opinion rag
2. Hudson is alleged to be a Todaro associate
3. The 2006 chart I requested from the FBI does not show Falzone in the acting position. Instead it lists him as a soldier.
4. Also that 2006 chart does not show Nicoletti as the underboss and instead lists him as a soldier.

Then their is the 2017 article by Dan Herbeck called “The Mafia in WNY is All but Dead.” In it he quotes SAC Cohen:
“Some of the individuals who were leaders of the Mafia are still around,” Cohen said. “But their organized crime activities don’t exist anymore. Some of them have legitimate businesses that we know of.”
But then he has written several investigative pieces that suggest otherwise after new information has come out.

Then there is the most recent statement by federal prosecutor Joe Tripi who states his opinion that the Bongiovanni trial and conviction proves IOC in Buffalo still exists.
You destroyed him with facts, so we will likely not reply or put together some jumbled BS while not addressing your specific points.

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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Pogo The Clown »

Teflon Dom wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 8:11 pm Remember the loser cuck fed in Boardwalk Empire? Thats him.

Remember that loser Fuggetaboutit? That is Teflon Dom. :lol:


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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Kash »

Hot take: mob will be around in a decade in similar numbers but a far cry from what it was operationally at power peak. The FBI is moving more resources to terrorism and the mob has very little violence anymore. In 10-20 years the mob will be majority guys who aren’t violent at all. The core of being a mob member is being a thief. Still plenty of those. And there are grown men joining the masons and lions clubs in their areas. Men just want to be in a club a lot of times.
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by bluehouse »

I think eventually it will just become a drug dealing orginisation.The young guys today dont have the patience for loan sharking and running a sports book.IT will most likely be like the camorra
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Aunt+Baby »

sdeitche wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:27 pm
Wiseguy wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 7:12 pm All of the families listed under "defunct" and "possibly extant but no longer functioning" were essentially finished by the end of the 1980s. The one exception might be Pittsburgh who, along with Buffalo and Detroit, lasted through the 1990s.
Tampa was active through the Raffa indictment in 2000, then faded down from there. The FDLE and FBI had three active investigations in the early 2000s related to mob influence in the courts/political corruption.
How many of their people were actually Tampa natives, and how many were merely transplants from other cities?
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Aunt+Baby »

bluehouse wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2024 3:09 am I think eventually it will just become a drug dealing orginisation.The young guys today dont have the patience for loan sharking and running a sports book.IT will most likely be like the camorra

That’s essentially what south side factions of The Outfit have morphed into. It’s still formal LCN, but it’s much more street level/grimy. The northside guys are the ones who are still into extortion & long-play type shit, but they’ll likely succumb to the fast money soon as well
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Aunt+Baby »

PTown wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 3:29 pm I will make a prediction here, perhaps a foolish one, as others have been wrong before. But it looks like in 10 years, we'll have "deez dem doze" thoroughly Americanized Italian American wiseguys (with originally Sicily, Calabria, and Campania heritage) functioning only in New York and maybe Philly. And we'll have mostly 1st or 2nd generation Calabrians operating in Canada. And that's it.

We can debate the term "defunct" and how resilient the mob is, but here is the picture I have in my head:

Defunct
Rockford, IL
Madison, WI
San Francisco, CA
San Jose, CA
Rochester, NY
Dallas, TX
Milwaukee, WI
Northeastern Pennsylvania Family
Pittsburgh, PA
Pueblo/Denver, CO
St. Louis, MO
New Orleans, LA
Tampa, FL

Possibly Extant, But No Longer Functioning

Kansas City, MO
Los Angeles, CA
Cleveland, OH

Clinging On, Barely
Detroit, MI
New Jersey (DeCavalcante Family)
Buffalo, NY
Chicago, IL
New England (Patriarca Family)

Even as a new member here, I realize the placement of DeCavs and Buffalo on that list (versus a worse or better one) are controversial. I also realize some in LE believe Detroit is reasonably healthy. And I also realize placing Chicago on this "Clinging On" list is controversial, but I believe all this is accurate.

What will it mean when in 10 years, the old families left are in NY? It's hard to say that the mob is a nationwide phenomenon anymore...
Chicago is not “clinging on barely”. Not long ago, there was the case where the Elmwood Park Street Crew were extorting (for protection) one of the largest brotheIs in Chicago. The Jessica Nesbitt operation. There’s clearly still a very viable structure there, and they evidently have muscle to be able to arm a multi-million dollar brothel
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Aunt+Baby »

johnny_scootch wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 6:41 am
Ivan wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 8:49 pm 3rd Tier: No longer viable/structured but still seem to have people doing some things. E.g., Buffalo.
You don’t agree that having a Boss, Underboss, at least one Captain and several soldiers and associates that we know about counts as structured?

Imo The Buffalo family seems to be most like Chicago at this point in time. Both viable both structured but absolute shells of their former selves.
This is so far off base. Chicago is a monolith compared to buffalo. Montreal & NY using buffalo as a mid-way point doesn’t constitute there being a family there.

A LOT of what the Feds put out there for public consumption is pure nonsense (especially when it comes to families that are difficult to penetrate a la Genovese-Detroit-Chicago), and they most certainly do not know everything (again, especially concerning the three aforementioned families), so I’m in no way implying that we should take every word from them as bond, the way that that some armchair goober from Dinglefucker, Kentucky would, such as that mental patient from the old gangster bb forum Ivy League I think their name was

However, if they considered them to still be a hierarchal LCN family, then they’d be listed as active. That much we can count on. Buffalo has difficulty keeping people from fleeing due to the economy being dog shit, let alone maintaining a healthy LCN family
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by Stopflexing »

One thing is for sure, in 10 years WG and Pogo are still going to be arguing with posters who claim to be from cities with active mob presence 🤣
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by sdeitche »

Aunt+Baby wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2024 3:15 am
sdeitche wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:27 pm
Wiseguy wrote: Thu Dec 26, 2024 7:12 pm All of the families listed under "defunct" and "possibly extant but no longer functioning" were essentially finished by the end of the 1980s. The one exception might be Pittsburgh who, along with Buffalo and Detroit, lasted through the 1990s.
Tampa was active through the Raffa indictment in 2000, then faded down from there. The FDLE and FBI had three active investigations in the early 2000s related to mob influence in the courts/political corruption.
How many of their people were actually Tampa natives, and how many were merely transplants from other cities?
The Raffa crew were Miami based guys.

The targets of the FDLE/FBI investigations were all Tampa.
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Re: The Mob in 10 Years (Who is Defunct; Who is Extant)

Post by johnny_scootch »

Aunt+Baby wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2024 3:34 am Chicago is a monolith compared to buffalo.
Chicago is down to what, 20 guys? Maybe less? They're not a monolith compared to any active family.
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