General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[chicagodog]

Another possibility is that he was made in 89 with Solly D, but considering his status relative to DeLaurentis, Bellavia, etc. at the time, I'm not very confident in that scenario.

Agreed.

Is there any way he could have been made in prison?

Given how little we really know about how the Outfit makes guys, especially in the modern era, I would say....why not?

I find it really interesting that Voldpendesto insituated that Sarno was in talks to be boss as early as 2003. He clearly made A LOT of moves on the street between 1999 and 2003. You also read about how we was invested in a ton of businesses with Vena during that time, so he was a busy guy for sure.

The FBI described the Outfit leadership as "devastated" and in "disarray" following the indictments and convictions of the 90s. It wouldn't be out of the question for a younger, ambitious guy like Sarno to gain influence, especially if he had the backing of someone influential (like, say, Monteleone).

Agreed, although I feel like the FBI always describes the mob that way. I do have to think that there was a contingent of older guys at that time (Monteleone? Difronzo? Andriacchi?), who were probably eager to have someone younger and hungrier take the reigns. Sarno was in his early to mid 40's at the time in question so certainly fit that bill.

True, but I don't think it was an exaggeration in this instance. In just 1990-1994 you had:

Accardo, Solano, and Jimmy LaPietra all dying
Carlisi, DiFronzo, Marcello, Infelise, Zizzo, D'Amico, and Toots Palermo all going to prison

That is an entire administration and essentially all of your captains turning over. I suppose DiFronzo would have had to make at least two guys at some point (Magnafichi and "Sponge" Scalise -- made according to Fosco), but I think it's very conceivable that nobody was made for several years until the leadership stabilized.

Don't think I've mentioned it here, but in 1993 an informant told the FBI that Chicago had "recently made" at least one new person (DiForti). Obviously, this informant was off by about 5 years, but maybe correct in one or more members being "recently made," just not DiForti.

[chicagodog]

Another possibility is that he was made in 89 with Solly D, but considering his status relative to DeLaurentis, Bellavia, etc. at the time, I'm not very confident in that scenario.

Agreed.

Is there any way he could have been made in prison?

Given how little we really know about how the Outfit makes guys, especially in the modern era, I would say....why not?

I find it really interesting that Voldpendesto insituated that Sarno was in talks to be boss as early as 2003. He clearly made A LOT of moves on the street between 1999 and 2003. You also read about how we was invested in a ton of businesses with Vena during that time, so he was a busy guy for sure.

The FBI described the Outfit leadership as "devastated" and in "disarray" following the indictments and convictions of the 90s. It wouldn't be out of the question for a younger, ambitious guy like Sarno to gain influence, especially if he had the backing of someone influential (like, say, Monteleone).

Agreed, although I feel like the FBI always describes the mob that way. I do have to think that there was a contingent of older guys at that time (Monteleone? Difronzo? Andriacchi?), who were probably eager to have someone younger and hungrier take the reigns. Sarno was in his early to mid 40's at the time in question so certainly fit that bill.

True, but I don't think it was an exaggeration in this instance. In just 1990-1994 you had:

Accardo, Solano, and Jimmy LaPietra all dying
Carlisi, DiFronzo, Marcello, Infelise, Zizzo, D'Amico, and Toots Palermo all going to prison

That is an entire administration and essentially all of your captains turning over. I suppose DiFronzo would have had to make at least two guys at some point (Magnafichi and "Sponge" Scalise -- made according to Fosco), but I think it's very conceivable that nobody was made for several years until the leadership stabilized.

Don't think I've mentioned it here, but in 1993 an informant told the FBI that Chicago had "recently made" at least one new person (DiForti). Obviously, this informant was off by about 5 years, but maybe correct in one or more members being "recently made," just not DiForti.

With basically the whole administration in prison. Any idea who were running the crews on the street?

[Wiseguy]

Looking at the Michael Frontier affidavits it’s obvious that the Outfit is very active, very structured and doing the same exact things now that they’ve been doing for the last 100 years at least according to the FBI. Don’t know how anyone can argue with the FBI when they’re the main govt body assigned to investigate them

I don't know what affidavit you were reading.

It’s notable that even with all of those informants, even focused on just one crew, all of the outfit cases over the last decade have not been able to indict any senior leaders or made members. (Maybe Panozzo but that’s up for debate). Whatever safeguards those guys use to insulate themselves are certainly working to some degree.

Since when was Panozzo confirmed to be made?

[Coloboy]

He wasn’t. That’s why I said that’s up for debate.

[Antiliar]

Looking at the Michael Frontier affidavits it’s obvious that the Outfit is very active, very structured and doing the same exact things now that they’ve been doing for the last 100 years at least according to the FBI. Don’t know how anyone can argue with the FBI when they’re the main govt body assigned to investigate them

I don't know what affidavit you were reading.

Maybe he means this:
https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-frontier-1

[Wiseguy]

Looking at the Michael Frontier affidavits it’s obvious that the Outfit is very active, very structured and doing the same exact things now that they’ve been doing for the last 100 years at least according to the FBI. Don’t know how anyone can argue with the FBI when they’re the main govt body assigned to investigate them

I don't know what affidavit you were reading.

Maybe he means this:
https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-frontier-1

Thanks, though I have read it, and my point was I don't see how he arrived at the conclusions he did based on it.

[Snakes]

Another possibility is that he was made in 89 with Solly D, but considering his status relative to DeLaurentis, Bellavia, etc. at the time, I'm not very confident in that scenario.

Agreed.

Is there any way he could have been made in prison?

Given how little we really know about how the Outfit makes guys, especially in the modern era, I would say....why not?

I find it really interesting that Voldpendesto insituated that Sarno was in talks to be boss as early as 2003. He clearly made A LOT of moves on the street between 1999 and 2003. You also read about how we was invested in a ton of businesses with Vena during that time, so he was a busy guy for sure.

The FBI described the Outfit leadership as "devastated" and in "disarray" following the indictments and convictions of the 90s. It wouldn't be out of the question for a younger, ambitious guy like Sarno to gain influence, especially if he had the backing of someone influential (like, say, Monteleone).

Agreed, although I feel like the FBI always describes the mob that way. I do have to think that there was a contingent of older guys at that time (Monteleone? Difronzo? Andriacchi?), who were probably eager to have someone younger and hungrier take the reigns. Sarno was in his early to mid 40's at the time in question so certainly fit that bill.

True, but I don't think it was an exaggeration in this instance. In just 1990-1994 you had:

Accardo, Solano, and Jimmy LaPietra all dying
Carlisi, DiFronzo, Marcello, Infelise, Zizzo, D'Amico, and Toots Palermo all going to prison

That is an entire administration and essentially all of your captains turning over. I suppose DiFronzo would have had to make at least two guys at some point (Magnafichi and "Sponge" Scalise -- made according to Fosco), but I think it's very conceivable that nobody was made for several years until the leadership stabilized.

Don't think I've mentioned it here, but in 1993 an informant told the FBI that Chicago had "recently made" at least one new person (DiForti). Obviously, this informant was off by about 5 years, but maybe correct in one or more members being "recently made," just not DiForti.

With basically the whole administration in prison. Any idea who were running the crews on the street?

It's tough to say for sure, but I think Andriacchi was acting boss and Monteleone underboss. I think it's entirely possible that an Interim arrangement was made up wherein the northern crews reported to Andriacchi and the southern crews to Monteleone. The FBI said informants had notified them that Chinatown was at least temporarily merged with Cicero around this time, so I think it's something that possibly could have been done across the board. Once they stabilized a bit prior to Family Secrets, they may have reassigned and promoted guys to run the crews. This is all just theory on my part, though.

[InCamelot]

Does anyone happen to know what era the Outfit was at its smallest in terms of confirmed made members?

[Snakes]

Does anyone happen to know what era the Outfit was at its smallest in terms of confirmed made members?

We don't have a confirmed membership count after 2006 and the conclusion of Family Secrets, where the FBI gave 28 as the number. That's definitely the smallest count since we started getting more accurate membership lists in the mid-80s.

Other counts were 46 in 1985 (which included Rockford members but was missing most of the guys from the '83 ceremony) and 48 in November 1983 (which again included Rockford guys but was also missing some guys Nick later confirmed as made).

[Patrickgold]

Here is something interesting. I have recently started communicating via Facebook with the director of the real casino documentary that was made in the early 2000s. Frank Buccieri was featured in the documentary but it was not advertised as him and his face was darkened out to not make it obvious. The director met Frank through Frank’s daughter. The director told me that he was introduced to Dominic Cortina at Giannotis by Frank Buccieri who told him that Cortina was the current boss of the Outfit at that time. This occurred sometime in the late 90s. The director told me he thinks Cortina was an interim boss between Carlisi and Monteleone. I think it’s possible. Anyone hear this before?

[Snakes]

Here is something interesting. I have recently started communicating via Facebook with the director of the real casino documentary that was made in the early 2000s. Frank Buccieri was featured in the documentary but it was not advertised as him and his face was darkened out to not make it obvious. The director met Frank through Frank’s daughter. The director told me that he was introduced to Dominic Cortina at Giannotis by Frank Buccieri who told him that Cortina was the current boss of the Outfit at that time. This occurred sometime in the late 90s. The director told me he thinks Cortina was an interim boss between Carlisi and Monteleone. I think it’s possible. Anyone hear this before?

I've never heard that before, but it's interesting. The only problem with it, in my mind, is that Cortina was in prison for most of the first part of the decade, not getting out until 1995. He also had some major health issues, stomach cancer, I believe. Terms like "boss" can be interpreted differently by different people, especially non-members, so I can see something getting lost in translation.

[Patrickgold]

Here is something interesting. I have recently started communicating via Facebook with the director of the real casino documentary that was made in the early 2000s. Frank Buccieri was featured in the documentary but it was not advertised as him and his face was darkened out to not make it obvious. The director met Frank through Frank’s daughter. The director told me that he was introduced to Dominic Cortina at Giannotis by Frank Buccieri who told him that Cortina was the current boss of the Outfit at that time. This occurred sometime in the late 90s. The director told me he thinks Cortina was an interim boss between Carlisi and Monteleone. I think it’s possible. Anyone hear this before?

I've never heard that before, but it's interesting. The only problem with it, in my mind, is that Cortina was in prison for most of the first part of the decade, not getting out until 1995. He also had some major health issues, stomach cancer, I believe. Terms like "boss" can be interpreted differently by different people, especially non-members, so I can see something getting lost in translation.

It would line up with the death of Carlisi and him being maybe interim boss until Monteleone being chosen. I’m going to try to find out the exact year he thinks it happened. I know Cortina died in 99. Makes sense he saw Cortina at Giannotis considering how close he was with Angelini who was supposedly the backer behind Vic Giannoti. Even if Frank Buccieri was only an associate, he was heavily involved in the outfit and should know who the boss was. But like you said, maybe he meant boss of a crew and this guy didn’t know the difference or maybe he said it to throw this guy off. He maybe didn’t want to disclose this type of info to an outsider.

[Snakes]

Here is something interesting. I have recently started communicating via Facebook with the director of the real casino documentary that was made in the early 2000s. Frank Buccieri was featured in the documentary but it was not advertised as him and his face was darkened out to not make it obvious. The director met Frank through Frank’s daughter. The director told me that he was introduced to Dominic Cortina at Giannotis by Frank Buccieri who told him that Cortina was the current boss of the Outfit at that time. This occurred sometime in the late 90s. The director told me he thinks Cortina was an interim boss between Carlisi and Monteleone. I think it’s possible. Anyone hear this before?

I've never heard that before, but it's interesting. The only problem with it, in my mind, is that Cortina was in prison for most of the first part of the decade, not getting out until 1995. He also had some major health issues, stomach cancer, I believe. Terms like "boss" can be interpreted differently by different people, especially non-members, so I can see something getting lost in translation.

It would line up with the death of Carlisi and him being maybe interim boss until Monteleone being chosen. I’m going to try to find out the exact year he thinks it happened. I know Cortina died in 99. Makes sense he saw Cortina at Giannotis considering how close he was with Angelini who was supposedly the backer behind Vic Giannoti. Even if Frank Buccieri was only an associate, he was heavily involved in the outfit and should know who the boss was. But like you said, maybe he meant boss of a crew and this guy didn’t know the difference or maybe he said it to throw this guy off. He maybe didn’t want to disclose this type of info to an outsider.

Yeah, just add it to the pile of interesting Outfit footnotes to keep in mind and file away. Thanks for sharing.

[Coloboy]

Interesting intel none the less. As most of the posters here know, Snakes put together a really solid shot at a timeline/succession of the 90's outfit leadership, so it would interesting if Cortina fit in there somehow.

We do know that by 97 or so most sources were calling Monteleone the boss. DIfronzo got out of his short stint in prison in 1994, so that period from 94-97 is pretty murky.

My educated guess was always that Difronzo kept it running until Monteleone was named, but it's possible someone else could have stepped up in an acting fashion in those couple years. The FBI has plenty of surveillance of Difronzo meeting with guys, mostly his brother, on their "walk and talks' around 1995, so they were clearly working on some things. I could see a scenario where after his prison stint, Difronzo wanted nothing to do with the boss role and perhaps succession plans were already in place by the time he went to prison in 1993.

[chicagodog]

Here is something interesting. I have recently started communicating via Facebook with the director of the real casino documentary that was made in the early 2000s. Frank Buccieri was featured in the documentary but it was not advertised as him and his face was darkened out to not make it obvious. The director met Frank through Frank’s daughter. The director told me that he was introduced to Dominic Cortina at Giannotis by Frank Buccieri who told him that Cortina was the current boss of the Outfit at that time. This occurred sometime in the late 90s. The director told me he thinks Cortina was an interim boss between Carlisi and Monteleone. I think it’s possible. Anyone hear this before?

I've never heard that before, but it's interesting. The only problem with it, in my mind, is that Cortina was in prison for most of the first part of the decade, not getting out until 1995. He also had some major health issues, stomach cancer, I believe. Terms like "boss" can be interpreted differently by different people, especially non-members, so I can see something getting lost in translation.

Could Cortina or someone like that have been given the job as they were seen as less violent than their predecessors? Cortina and Angelini were always huge money makers and well respected. Wouldn’t be a huge suprise, but they weren’t particularly close to DiFronzo.