Organization & Operation revisited

[CabriniGreen]

The plan from the beginning was to lure CornerBoy into this thread and get him banned. Everyone else was just collateral damage.

What do you mean?

Lol... thats just B. Kidding you bro...

[CornerBoy]

does someone feel like bullet pointing all the gus alex and rest of thsi shit, I"ll pay them if I have to. very interesting but so hard to keep track of and understand lol

Gus Alex was a powerful Greek associate who answered directly to the Chicago leadership and had an influential role due to both his individual prowess and the backing of the Family's top members. He was regarded as a peer to the official leadership, a de facto leader himself, and his inluence over certain operations, particularly in the Loop, were crucial to the Family. His relationship to the mafia was much like Joe Watts, Meyer Lansky, Maishe Rockman, and even Joe Diez in Tampa although each of these individuals and cities had unique aspects to their relationships.

no, i mean of this whole conversation particularly the minute details on alex AND the crux of each persons argument. A lot of these posts are superflouus not to mention gratuitious. Some of this esoteric shit is extraneous and beating a dead horse. Maybe the mafia rules change a few times per decade? maybe its not such a stringent, presricbed "employee handbook". I think these things are malleable on the fly when the situation calls or it.

[CabriniGreen]

does someone feel like bullet pointing all the gus alex and rest of thsi shit, I"ll pay them if I have to. very interesting but so hard to keep track of and understand lol

Gus Alex was a powerful Greek associate who answered directly to the Chicago leadership and had an influential role due to both his individual prowess and the backing of the Family's top members. He was regarded as a peer to the official leadership, a de facto leader himself, and his inluence over certain operations, particularly in the Loop, were crucial to the Family. His relationship to the mafia was much like Joe Watts, Meyer Lansky, Maishe Rockman, and even Joe Diez in Tampa although each of these individuals and cities had unique aspects to their relationships.

no, i mean of this whole conversation particularly the minute details on alex AND the crux of each persons argument. A lot of these posts are superflouus not to mention gratuitious. Some of this esoteric shit is extraneous and beating a dead horse. Maybe the mafia rules change a few times per decade? maybe its not such a stringent, presricbed "employee handbook". I think these things are malleable on the fly when the situation calls or it.

Lol, I mean... I DO think this has been made way more complicated than it needed to be.

Ranks and Rules, Org. Rackets, Operations.

It got confusing with guys " operating" in Organizational ranks.

[Pogo The Clown]

In Philly, Scarfo made Iannarella and Delgiorno acting captains but I'm not sure if there was anybody with the official title and they were later made official like Lino was. In that use, it's more like a probationary title while they assess how the guy runs things.

We also have at least two instances of Philly using acting captains for official captains:

1. Patty Martirano appointed Scoops Licata his acting captain in 1988 while on the lam
2. In 1998-1999, Bobby Luisi left his cousin Paul Pepicelli as acting captain in Boston whenever he was out of town

Both of these show that Philly followed the same procedure as NY when it comes to captains having the authority to appoint their own acting captains, but the Licata example is particularly interesting. When Martirano first went on the lam, there was a brief period of time where day-to-day control of the crew in North Jersey was split operationally between Licata, Tony Attanasio (both soldiers), and George Fresolone (an associate), the latter acting as Martirano's messenger. It was later that Licata was sent down to Florida so that Martirano could officially appoint him as his acting captain.

DelGiorno or Iannarella may have been Acting for the incarcerated Joe Ciancaglini. They were both under him before they were made (annd likely anfter) and Chang kept his Official Captain rank in prison up to the early 90s at least.


Vincent Centorino was Acting Captain of the North Jersey Crew in the early 2000s. Different situation though as Licata was in prison.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

In Philly, Scarfo made Iannarella and Delgiorno acting captains but I'm not sure if there was anybody with the official title and they were later made official like Lino was. In that use, it's more like a probationary title while they assess how the guy runs things.

We also have at least two instances of Philly using acting captains for official captains:

1. Patty Martirano appointed Scoops Licata his acting captain in 1988 while on the lam
2. In 1998-1999, Bobby Luisi left his cousin Paul Pepicelli as acting captain in Boston whenever he was out of town

Both of these show that Philly followed the same procedure as NY when it comes to captains having the authority to appoint their own acting captains, but the Licata example is particularly interesting. When Martirano first went on the lam, there was a brief period of time where day-to-day control of the crew in North Jersey was split operationally between Licata, Tony Attanasio (both soldiers), and George Fresolone (an associate), the latter acting as Martirano's messenger. It was later that Licata was sent down to Florida so that Martirano could officially appoint him as his acting captain.

DelGiorno or Iannarella may have been Acting for the incarcerated Joe Ciancaglini. They were both under him before they were made (annd likely anfter) and Chang kept his Official Captain rank in prison up to the early 90s at least.


Vincent Centorino was Acting Captain of the North Jersey Crew in the early 2000s. Different situation though as Licata was in prison.


Pogo

1
DelGiorno and Iannarella is another interesting oddity. If you read Blood & Honor, Caramandi really makes it sound like they were both made Acting Co-Captains of the same decina. B. believes this is a misunderstanding and I really don't know. There's no rule against having two captains over one crew but the logistics of it one would think would lead to problems. If a soldier is told "no" by one but "yes" to another on something, how would that be resolved?

2
The Phila. examples are slightly different than the New York ones in the sense that the former's use of "acting captains" are reserved for a captain like Licata or Ciancaglini who are incarcerated, whereas Chicago and New York utilizes "acting captains" both in that capacity but also for on-the-street captains utilizing a lieutenant under the same title. There's no differentiation in the name.

[Angelo Santino]

does someone feel like bullet pointing all the gus alex and rest of thsi shit, I"ll pay them if I have to. very interesting but so hard to keep track of and understand lol

Gus Alex was a powerful Greek associate who answered directly to the Chicago leadership and had an influential role due to both his individual prowess and the backing of the Family's top members. He was regarded as a peer to the official leadership, a de facto leader himself, and his inluence over certain operations, particularly in the Loop, were crucial to the Family. His relationship to the mafia was much like Joe Watts, Meyer Lansky, Maishe Rockman, and even Joe Diez in Tampa although each of these individuals and cities had unique aspects to their relationships.

no, i mean of this whole conversation particularly the minute details on alex AND the crux of each persons argument. A lot of these posts are superflouus not to mention gratuitious. Some of this esoteric shit is extraneous and beating a dead horse. Maybe the mafia rules change a few times per decade? maybe its not such a stringent, presricbed "employee handbook". I think these things are malleable on the fly when the situation calls or it.

Lol, I mean... I DO think this has been made way more complicated than it needed to be.

Ranks and Rules, Org. Rackets, Operations.

It got confusing with guys " operating" in Organizational ranks.

I already posted this earlier in the thread and I'll post it again. Let's say there is a newcomer to this subject or we're in the 1960's when law enforcement was playing catch-up on learning about the organization.

-
Wiretap 1 involving made members talking: "Angelo's under Mikey Scars."

Wiretap 2 involving non-members in a gambling ring: "We're going to have to go to the boss about this and see what Angelo says."

Wiretap 1 identifies me as a soldier in DiLeonardo's decina whereas Wiretap 2 calls me "the boss." What am I? We know the boss of the Gambinos are the Gottis so I'm not that. Made members are referring to me as a soldier under DiLeonardo, associates are calling me "the boss."

Within the organization- I am a soldier. But operationally to these associates, I am their boss. No one is going to say that DiLeonardo has me in his decina holding the title of boss.

Outsiders try and make sense of it and conclude, "well Angelo is a crew boss" "like a capo." But say Gotti calls a meeting and all the members have to attend, I'm going to that meeting as a soldier in the DiLeonardo crew. Black and white. Gotti's not going to say "That Ange, he's got associates with him, he's a crew boss, go sit in the crew boss section, actually fk let's just call him a capo."

These little nuances can be confusing and/or misleading. My presentation of Org and Op is an attempt to explain and clear up these discrepancies.

[Angelo Santino]

I hit on this in my first post, no one touched on it so I feel the need to post it again.

The subject of "Acting Capos" (NY) and "Personal Underbosses" (Chi.)

This is one of the few examples we have of an "American rendition," Capodecina having a semi-formal designated lieutenant. We only see it exclusively in the two largest cities, I don't believe we have examples of it in other cities although correct me if I'm wrong.

My biggest takeaway is that it serves to show how slow the mafia is to change. "Personal" and "Acting" imply an informal position, rather than create an entirely new rank between soldier and capodecina like say "Tenente," they instead adopted this position/function with a name that doesn't really do it justice. We are familiar with "Acting Bosses," which usually exists when the Boss is in legal jeopardy or prison. But in many cases, these "Acting Capos" are there for Capidecina who are on the street and free of legal trouble. We see it in the Gambinos, the Gens, Luchs, Bonannos, Colombos and Chicago exclusively. It's no coincidence that all of these families had capidecina who oversaw many members and operational aspects. Some of these Gen "decinas" were indeed larger than some families in Sicily. I would also surmise that even with the smaller families, most Captains had an aid, informally, on an operational level.

I recall a Pennisi episode where he said some Lucchese captains have actings, others prefer not to.

Since there was never an entirely new position created for them, I would estimate that it falls under operational. That these guys are soldiers, first amongst equals but soldiers all the same, until they get appointed Capodecina. I don't really know the answer to this and I'm curious what others think.

Only other example of an American rendition is the Gen Messagero, but that seems to have been a function fulfilled by captains. Chin may be able to weigh in on this- has there been any evidence that Cirillo was taken out of his Capodecina position and given an entirely new official rank of Messagero above that of Capodecina but below the traditonal Admin? Curious your thoughts.

At least in the Chicago case, we don’t have any member sources that I’m aware of who refer to a “personal underboss” or something equivalent. Nicky Calabrese testified that when Angelo LaPietra was preparing to get sent away for the Strawman case, he told Nick “u’ frate, sottocapo’” (“the brother, underboss”), and Calabrese clarified that Angelo was thereby telling him that Jimmy Lap was going to serve as acting capo.

I think a better term than “personal underboss” (which is, so far as I know, a completely fabricated term made up by a past poster) would be “crew underboss” or “under-captain”, as it is designating a vice-capodecina or sotto-capodecina who serves as boss of the crew in place of the the official capodecina. An acting captain is a formal position, even if it is not the official capodecina position, and so for me this is an organizational matter.

This notion of “personal underboss” got mixed up also with notions of a capodecina having “lieutenants”. IIRC, the only time a made member used the term “lieutenant” in any objective sense was when Valachi seemingly used it as a synonym for capodecina. LE and the press, along with non-member CIs, commonly used “lieutenant” to refer to guys who seemed important but weren’t the boss of a group, without any sort of consistency or objective reference to LCN positions. In a Family like Chicago, which had few made guys as compared to NYC, “lieutenants” discussed by these outsider sources were typically just made guys in the crew, who usually were themselves in charge of operations and sub-“crews” of associates for their capodecina.

It is of course very interesting that Calabrese testified that Chicago used the term “sottocapo” for an acting captain. As we know from both the US and Sicily the Family sottocapo (Vice-rappresentante) was also thought of as the “sustituto”, the man who was able to stand in for the capo of the entire Family when the latter was indisposed or unavailable. This function of substitute clearly was extrapolated to acting capodecine in the US mafia, though it remains unclear to me whether similar arrangements have never pertained in Sicily.

It’s possible that when a capodecina was unavailable, a trusted soldier could stand in his stead without being formally designated acting capodecina. An interesting example was captured on an early 1960s recording made by an FBI bug in Pat Marcy’s 1st Ward Democratic Organization office in the Chicago Loop (an HQ for Chicago’s political corruption apparatus). The Rockford “outfit” needed to speak with sole Chicago leaders and contacted Jackie Cerone, who was then a capodecina. As the boss, Giancana, was unavailable, Cerone came to Frank Ferraro, then sottocapo of the Chicago Family under Giancana, which is exactly what the underboss was for. Additionally, however, Cerone told Ferraro that Rockford also wanted to speak with Chicago Heights capodecina Frank LaPorte. Ferraro noted that LaPorte was out of town (we know that LaPorte was often absent in the 60s and spending a lot of his time in CA) and stated that Al Pilotto should thus be contacted in LaPorte’s stead. So far as we know, Pilotto was a soldier at this point (in the 70s he succeeded LaPorte as capodecina), but clearly he had a recognized role where Ferraro knew that he was de facto/provisionally acting for LaPorte. I’d think that if a captain was going to be out of town for a period he would have to leave word with the admin/Council and probably designate a substitute at least in a de facto/provisional capacity.

My belief is that the Genovese “messagero” thing was not an official position; rather, a set of responsibilities that may not have correlated with a particular rank. When Cirillo was identified by the Feds as being the Westside’s liaison to Chicago, I believe this was just a responsibility that he carried out due to personal connections while he was formally a capodecina. Decades prior to Cirillo, Gaetano “Tony Goebels” Ricci seems to have been the Genovese “messagero” to Chicago, but so far as we know Ricci was a soldier, albeit a highly respected one, at this time. While we haven’t seen the term “messagero” used by Chicago sources (and it wouldn’t shock me if this term was used, given that Chicago was documented to use other terms that people long assumed they didn’t, and it’s a simple and common Italian word), there seem to have been Chicago members who served as liaisons to other Families: Aiuppa for STL and KC, Alderisio for Milwaukee, possibly Cerone for Rockford (given the above referenced wiretap). But these men were either capidecine (or, for Alderisio, a soldier at least for some of the period in question) and I assume that their responsibilities as liaisons were likely the same as what has been referred to as “messagero” for the Genovese.

When Joe N Gallo apparently had connections to NOLA, he didn’t have any formal “liaison position”; rather, he was able to serve as a conduit for connections between Families by dint of his own personal background and relationships. I assume this was the same for the Genovese “messageri”.

I think Tony said it perfectly. The position of "personal underboss" was invented by a poster on Joe Fosco's forum, but I'm not sure he meant it as an official position or a term of convenience. I think "crew underboss" or even "top lieutenant" are fine terms to use as long as it's made clear that they aren't official titles. I think it's useful information to know that Allegretti and then DiVarco were Ross Prio's top men. The "crew underboss" usually has almost the same authority as the capodecina when the capodecina is away, and he often acts as an intermediary between the capodecina and the rest of the crew. If one wants to make a chart, it would be informative to see who the "crew underbosses" were.

1
Yes, Tony broke it down well and answered my question- falls under organization. Acting Bosses can have been pulled out of their positions and held a placeholder or interim spot for the official boss, "acting captains" adheres to that same function.

2
Agreed on Messengers, it's a function. Arguably another name for Org and Op could be Structure and Function, maybe the latter would have been a better way to describe this topic.

3
It's good that "personal underboss" was cleared up in pointing out that as a term it wasn't used by its members, but like Scott's "consiglieri emeritus," these were outsiders trying to describe something that acting existed, despite whatever title description we give it.

Thanks guys.

[Pogo The Clown]

In Philly, Scarfo made Iannarella and Delgiorno acting captains but I'm not sure if there was anybody with the official title and they were later made official like Lino was. In that use, it's more like a probationary title while they assess how the guy runs things.

We also have at least two instances of Philly using acting captains for official captains:

1. Patty Martirano appointed Scoops Licata his acting captain in 1988 while on the lam
2. In 1998-1999, Bobby Luisi left his cousin Paul Pepicelli as acting captain in Boston whenever he was out of town

Both of these show that Philly followed the same procedure as NY when it comes to captains having the authority to appoint their own acting captains, but the Licata example is particularly interesting. When Martirano first went on the lam, there was a brief period of time where day-to-day control of the crew in North Jersey was split operationally between Licata, Tony Attanasio (both soldiers), and George Fresolone (an associate), the latter acting as Martirano's messenger. It was later that Licata was sent down to Florida so that Martirano could officially appoint him as his acting captain.

DelGiorno or Iannarella may have been Acting for the incarcerated Joe Ciancaglini. They were both under him before they were made (annd likely anfter) and Chang kept his Official Captain rank in prison up to the early 90s at least.


Vincent Centorino was Acting Captain of the North Jersey Crew in the early 2000s. Different situation though as Licata was in prison.


Pogo

1
DelGiorno and Iannarella is another interesting oddity. If you read Blood & Honor, Caramandi really makes it sound like they were both made Acting Co-Captains of the same decina. B. believes this is a misunderstanding and I really don't know. There's no rule against having two captains over one crew but the logistics of it one would think would lead to problems. If a soldier is told "no" by one but "yes" to another on something, how would that be resolved?

2
The Phila. examples are slightly different than the New York ones in the sense that the former's use of "acting captains" are reserved for a captain like Licata or Ciancaglini who are incarcerated, whereas Chicago and New York utilizes "acting captains" both in that capacity but also for on-the-street captains utilizing a lieutenant under the same title. There's no differentiation in the name.

DelGiorno or Inannarella were most likely Acting for Ciancaglini and Salvy Testa’s old Crew. Seems like after Ciancaglini’s incarceration in 1982/3 his guys were overseen by Testa. After Testa was killed in 1984 DelGiorno and Iannarella are promoted to Acting Captains and then Official Captains. Both of them were seemingly under Ciancaglini in the early 1980s (the Calabrese murder). Don’t know which one would have gotten which crew. After DelGiorgio was demoted it seems like his guys were overseen by Ianneralla as one big crew.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

Makes sense.

[Stroccos]

I hit on this in my first post, no one touched on it so I feel the need to post it again.

The subject of "Acting Capos" (NY) and "Personal Underbosses" (Chi.)

This is one of the few examples we have of an "American rendition," Capodecina having a semi-formal designated lieutenant. We only see it exclusively in the two largest cities, I don't believe we have examples of it in other cities although correct me if I'm wrong.

My biggest takeaway is that it serves to show how slow the mafia is to change. "Personal" and "Acting" imply an informal position, rather than create an entirely new rank between soldier and capodecina like say "Tenente," they instead adopted this position/function with a name that doesn't really do it justice. We are familiar with "Acting Bosses," which usually exists when the Boss is in legal jeopardy or prison. But in many cases, these "Acting Capos" are there for Capidecina who are on the street and free of legal trouble. We see it in the Gambinos, the Gens, Luchs, Bonannos, Colombos and Chicago exclusively. It's no coincidence that all of these families had capidecina who oversaw many members and operational aspects. Some of these Gen "decinas" were indeed larger than some families in Sicily. I would also surmise that even with the smaller families, most Captains had an aid, informally, on an operational level.

I recall a Pennisi episode where he said some Lucchese captains have actings, others prefer not to.

Since there was never an entirely new position created for them, I would estimate that it falls under operational. That these guys are soldiers, first amongst equals but soldiers all the same, until they get appointed Capodecina. I don't really know the answer to this and I'm curious what others think.

Only other example of an American rendition is the Gen Messagero, but that seems to have been a function fulfilled by captains. Chin may be able to weigh in on this- has there been any evidence that Cirillo was taken out of his Capodecina position and given an entirely new official rank of Messagero above that of Capodecina but below the traditonal Admin? Curious your thoughts.

They used the term underboss in Ohio simply meaning there too guy or lt

I recall an associate being placed with a soldier in a gambling operation being told he was going to be his "underboss." Is that what you're referring to or is there another example?

For clarity sake, this was an associate being told he was going to be a number 2 to someone (a made guy) in an operational gambling venture. We're not suggesting that Soldiers in CL starting getting their own formal made member underlings called underbosses.

Yes Carmen Basile AKA godfather of the westside was telling to jimmy coppola who flipped
I have also seen other people given a similar title , some people referred to naples and strollo as underboss of jimmy prato

[B.]

Formal & function is definitely another way of describing what we're talking here.

[B.]

Post from last year that's relevant to the acting captain stuff:

Yeah I'd be interested in knowing how early the acting captain position shows up. "Sostituto" for the boss was in place by the Sangiorgi Report (late 1800s / early 1900s) and Gentile refers to it in the US early on but nobody really breaks that kind of thing down on a capodecina/crew level until later. Easy to imagine captains had a sostituto as long as the admin has had it.

Valachi said his crew had someone who was sort of designated to help the captain run the crew. I can't remember if Valachi himself was in that spot earlier but later it was Vinnie Mauro and Valachi beefed about it because he didn't want to have orders relayed through Mauro. Didn't sound like an acting captain necessarily but reminds me of the Chicago "crew leaders" or "avugad" as they appeared to call them. Garcia said Louis Filippelli had a similar role for Funzie Sisca. Easy to imagine it's an unofficial messenger sort of role, but plays into this where a certain soldier is selected to help manage the captain's affairs.

Showing the difference between organizational and operational, if a captain chooses to relay messages through a specific soldier and even gives him a certain status in the decina it doesn't mean he's an acting captain even if he's functioning like one. The captain just decided to use one of his soldiers for a certain purpose so it's pure function even though it impacts the organization.

On the other side, a captain could name an acting captain who does little more than answer the phone so members can check in while the official captain is away but if he was given that formal title then it doesn't matter what his function is, he's an acting captain.

[Angelo Santino]

Organizational/Structural/Formal vs Operational/Functional/Informal. What terms would be the most clearest and simplest way to describe the methodology?

[B.]

Since this thread talked about people wanting to assign "capo" or "like a capo" status to certain people, where do you think that started?

I've always seen it as a Sopranos era thing. The Sopranos did for the word capo what the Godfather did for consigliere. Older books, articles, or charts might occasionally mislabel someone as a captain / capodecina / capo but they didn't seem overeager to throw the term around. Post-1999 some people are eager to use the word, as if they just like the sound of it.

Many sites / books when the Sopranos was on air started calling all kinds of people "capos" who weren't. Oh him? He's a capo. Capo. Let's talk about the capos. My favorite is Selwyn Raab describing Scarpa as a "war capo" and Phil Carlo stealing it in at least one of his books. Having a problem? Better call the local war capo.

Maybe it makes a mob figure sound more attractive to read / talk about if you can call him a capo. Oh he was just a soldier or associate? No thank you. Capo? Tell me all about him.

--

Contrast this with Chicago or Canada, where some people are averse to calling an actual capodecina by his formal rank as if it devalues his role. The irony is that overuse of "capo" comes from the idea that a capodecina is a highly esteemed position whereas the Chicago / Canada issue is that it doesn't sound esteemed enough to some.

I believe there's a sort of mafia-specific autism that also wants to assign formal ranks to everyone even when it doesn't apply. You used to see lists or charts where the Lucchese NJ crew had a boss, underboss, and consigliere. You see it with Montreal. Obviously people have created fantasy ranks and positions for Chicago. The overuse of "capo" and "consigliere" plays into this. It's not enough for someone to be an operational powerhouse, he must be a capo. Someone can't be a trusted advisor or mediator, he must be a consigliere. One captain is more important than another? There must be different tiers of captains.

The truth is the mafia has a very set structure that doesn't change much if at all, like Angelo said, and you don't see Families improvise with new positions in the structure. What makes the mafia dynamic and interesting is the operation / function of things in and around that structure. That aspect of the mafia is extremely flexible but the structure doesn't change nor do the specific ranks that exist. It comes down to whether he was formally given that rank or not.

[B.]

I bring this up now and again, but I don't have complete faith in the idea that the DeCavalcantes in the 1960s had two official underbosses. That's the impression the DeCavalcante tapes give but Sam also doesn't break it all down and put it in context for our benefit. Maybe LaSelva was the official underboss and Majuri was acting for him in NJ because LaSelva was in CT.

Or the DeCavalcantes really did have two official underbosses for a time which would make them extremely unique and even though discussion of atypical ranks tends to be controversial this one amazingly isn't.

The DeCavalcante structure apparently looked like this:

Consiglio
Boss
Underboss
?-Underboss
?-Consigliere (they definitely used the official consigliere position by the mid-1970s)
Capodecina

Chicago's use of sottocapo for acting captains should also be brought up with this in mind. Could the DeCavalcantes have used the term underboss more freely to refer to another role we typically associate with another title? Majuri does appear to function like an actual underboss but it's hard to say for sure.