Organization & Operation revisited

[B.]

does someone feel like bullet pointing all the gus alex and rest of thsi shit, I"ll pay them if I have to. very interesting but so hard to keep track of and understand lol

Gus Alex was a powerful Greek associate who answered directly to the Chicago leadership and had an influential role due to both his individual prowess and the backing of the Family's top members. He was regarded as a peer to the official leadership, a de facto leader himself, and his inluence over certain operations, particularly in the Loop, were crucial to the Family. His relationship to the mafia was much like Joe Watts, Meyer Lansky, Maishe Rockman, and even Joe Diez in Tampa although each of these individuals and cities had unique aspects to their relationships.

[CabriniGreen]

Let's see if there's any interest... switching it up a little..

Gucciardi? Org or Ops?

Any thoughts?

[B.]

Operationally he's close to the Bonannos and Gambinos and involved in NYC gambling machines but he's probably made with the Sciacca Family.

[Angelo Santino]

I hit on this in my first post, no one touched on it so I feel the need to post it again.

The subject of "Acting Capos" (NY) and "Personal Underbosses" (Chi.)

This is one of the few examples we have of an "American rendition," Capodecina having a semi-formal designated lieutenant. We only see it exclusively in the two largest cities, I don't believe we have examples of it in other cities although correct me if I'm wrong.

My biggest takeaway is that it serves to show how slow the mafia is to change. "Personal" and "Acting" imply an informal position, rather than create an entirely new rank between soldier and capodecina like say "Tenente," they instead adopted this position/function with a name that doesn't really do it justice. We are familiar with "Acting Bosses," which usually exists when the Boss is in legal jeopardy or prison. But in many cases, these "Acting Capos" are there for Capidecina who are on the street and free of legal trouble. We see it in the Gambinos, the Gens, Luchs, Bonannos, Colombos and Chicago exclusively. It's no coincidence that all of these families had capidecina who oversaw many members and operational aspects. Some of these Gen "decinas" were indeed larger than some families in Sicily. I would also surmise that even with the smaller families, most Captains had an aid, informally, on an operational level.

I recall a Pennisi episode where he said some Lucchese captains have actings, others prefer not to.

Since there was never an entirely new position created for them, I would estimate that it falls under operational. That these guys are soldiers, first amongst equals but soldiers all the same, until they get appointed Capodecina. I don't really know the answer to this and I'm curious what others think.

Only other example of an American rendition is the Gen Messagero, but that seems to have been a function fulfilled by captains. Chin may be able to weigh in on this- has there been any evidence that Cirillo was taken out of his Capodecina position and given an entirely new official rank of Messagero above that of Capodecina but below the traditonal Admin? Curious your thoughts.

[Angelo Santino]

Also or additionaly. Juan Fernandez still amazes me. This Cuban went to Palermo and insisted he was made. That is so ballsy that it made me wonder if it were true. Not even Tony Montana would attempt that: "Hey flock you, mayne! Frank made me amico nos and whatchu gonna do aboutit? All I got in my life is my button and my balls!"

Certainly one of the most interesting things to come out of the Rizzutos, at least to me.

[Stroccos]

I hit on this in my first post, no one touched on it so I feel the need to post it again.

The subject of "Acting Capos" (NY) and "Personal Underbosses" (Chi.)

This is one of the few examples we have of an "American rendition," Capodecina having a semi-formal designated lieutenant. We only see it exclusively in the two largest cities, I don't believe we have examples of it in other cities although correct me if I'm wrong.

My biggest takeaway is that it serves to show how slow the mafia is to change. "Personal" and "Acting" imply an informal position, rather than create an entirely new rank between soldier and capodecina like say "Tenente," they instead adopted this position/function with a name that doesn't really do it justice. We are familiar with "Acting Bosses," which usually exists when the Boss is in legal jeopardy or prison. But in many cases, these "Acting Capos" are there for Capidecina who are on the street and free of legal trouble. We see it in the Gambinos, the Gens, Luchs, Bonannos, Colombos and Chicago exclusively. It's no coincidence that all of these families had capidecina who oversaw many members and operational aspects. Some of these Gen "decinas" were indeed larger than some families in Sicily. I would also surmise that even with the smaller families, most Captains had an aid, informally, on an operational level.

I recall a Pennisi episode where he said some Lucchese captains have actings, others prefer not to.

Since there was never an entirely new position created for them, I would estimate that it falls under operational. That these guys are soldiers, first amongst equals but soldiers all the same, until they get appointed Capodecina. I don't really know the answer to this and I'm curious what others think.

Only other example of an American rendition is the Gen Messagero, but that seems to have been a function fulfilled by captains. Chin may be able to weigh in on this- has there been any evidence that Cirillo was taken out of his Capodecina position and given an entirely new official rank of Messagero above that of Capodecina but below the traditonal Admin? Curious your thoughts.

They used the term underboss in Ohio simply meaning there too guy or lt

[Angelo Santino]

I hit on this in my first post, no one touched on it so I feel the need to post it again.

The subject of "Acting Capos" (NY) and "Personal Underbosses" (Chi.)

This is one of the few examples we have of an "American rendition," Capodecina having a semi-formal designated lieutenant. We only see it exclusively in the two largest cities, I don't believe we have examples of it in other cities although correct me if I'm wrong.

My biggest takeaway is that it serves to show how slow the mafia is to change. "Personal" and "Acting" imply an informal position, rather than create an entirely new rank between soldier and capodecina like say "Tenente," they instead adopted this position/function with a name that doesn't really do it justice. We are familiar with "Acting Bosses," which usually exists when the Boss is in legal jeopardy or prison. But in many cases, these "Acting Capos" are there for Capidecina who are on the street and free of legal trouble. We see it in the Gambinos, the Gens, Luchs, Bonannos, Colombos and Chicago exclusively. It's no coincidence that all of these families had capidecina who oversaw many members and operational aspects. Some of these Gen "decinas" were indeed larger than some families in Sicily. I would also surmise that even with the smaller families, most Captains had an aid, informally, on an operational level.

I recall a Pennisi episode where he said some Lucchese captains have actings, others prefer not to.

Since there was never an entirely new position created for them, I would estimate that it falls under operational. That these guys are soldiers, first amongst equals but soldiers all the same, until they get appointed Capodecina. I don't really know the answer to this and I'm curious what others think.

Only other example of an American rendition is the Gen Messagero, but that seems to have been a function fulfilled by captains. Chin may be able to weigh in on this- has there been any evidence that Cirillo was taken out of his Capodecina position and given an entirely new official rank of Messagero above that of Capodecina but below the traditonal Admin? Curious your thoughts.

They used the term underboss in Ohio simply meaning there too guy or lt

I recall an associate being placed with a soldier in a gambling operation being told he was going to be his "underboss." Is that what you're referring to or is there another example?

For clarity sake, this was an associate being told he was going to be a number 2 to someone (a made guy) in an operational gambling venture. We're not suggesting that Soldiers in CL starting getting their own formal made member underlings called underbosses.

[PolackTony]

I hit on this in my first post, no one touched on it so I feel the need to post it again.

The subject of "Acting Capos" (NY) and "Personal Underbosses" (Chi.)

This is one of the few examples we have of an "American rendition," Capodecina having a semi-formal designated lieutenant. We only see it exclusively in the two largest cities, I don't believe we have examples of it in other cities although correct me if I'm wrong.

My biggest takeaway is that it serves to show how slow the mafia is to change. "Personal" and "Acting" imply an informal position, rather than create an entirely new rank between soldier and capodecina like say "Tenente," they instead adopted this position/function with a name that doesn't really do it justice. We are familiar with "Acting Bosses," which usually exists when the Boss is in legal jeopardy or prison. But in many cases, these "Acting Capos" are there for Capidecina who are on the street and free of legal trouble. We see it in the Gambinos, the Gens, Luchs, Bonannos, Colombos and Chicago exclusively. It's no coincidence that all of these families had capidecina who oversaw many members and operational aspects. Some of these Gen "decinas" were indeed larger than some families in Sicily. I would also surmise that even with the smaller families, most Captains had an aid, informally, on an operational level.

I recall a Pennisi episode where he said some Lucchese captains have actings, others prefer not to.

Since there was never an entirely new position created for them, I would estimate that it falls under operational. That these guys are soldiers, first amongst equals but soldiers all the same, until they get appointed Capodecina. I don't really know the answer to this and I'm curious what others think.

Only other example of an American rendition is the Gen Messagero, but that seems to have been a function fulfilled by captains. Chin may be able to weigh in on this- has there been any evidence that Cirillo was taken out of his Capodecina position and given an entirely new official rank of Messagero above that of Capodecina but below the traditonal Admin? Curious your thoughts.

At least in the Chicago case, we don’t have any member sources that I’m aware of who refer to a “personal underboss” or something equivalent. Nicky Calabrese testified that when Angelo LaPietra was preparing to get sent away for the Strawman case, he told Nick “u’ frate, sottocapo’” (“the brother, underboss”), and Calabrese clarified that Angelo was thereby telling him that Jimmy Lap was going to serve as acting capo.

I think a better term than “personal underboss” (which is, so far as I know, a completely fabricated term made up by a past poster) would be “crew underboss” or “under-captain”, as it is designating a vice-capodecina or sotto-capodecina who serves as boss of the crew in place of the the official capodecina. An acting captain is a formal position, even if it is not the official capodecina position, and so for me this is an organizational matter.

This notion of “personal underboss” got mixed up also with notions of a capodecina having “lieutenants”. IIRC, the only time a made member used the term “lieutenant” in any objective sense was when Valachi seemingly used it as a synonym for capodecina. LE and the press, along with non-member CIs, commonly used “lieutenant” to refer to guys who seemed important but weren’t the boss of a group, without any sort of consistency or objective reference to LCN positions. In a Family like Chicago, which had few made guys as compared to NYC, “lieutenants” discussed by these outsider sources were typically just made guys in the crew, who usually were themselves in charge of operations and sub-“crews” of associates for their capodecina.

It is of course very interesting that Calabrese testified that Chicago used the term “sottocapo” for an acting captain. As we know from both the US and Sicily the Family sottocapo (Vice-rappresentante) was also thought of as the “sustituto”, the man who was able to stand in for the capo of the entire Family when the latter was indisposed or unavailable. This function of substitute clearly was extrapolated to acting capodecine in the US mafia, though it remains unclear to me whether similar arrangements have never pertained in Sicily.

It’s possible that when a capodecina was unavailable, a trusted soldier could stand in his stead without being formally designated acting capodecina. An interesting example was captured on an early 1960s recording made by an FBI bug in Pat Marcy’s 1st Ward Democratic Organization office in the Chicago Loop (an HQ for Chicago’s political corruption apparatus). The Rockford “outfit” needed to speak with sole Chicago leaders and contacted Jackie Cerone, who was then a capodecina. As the boss, Giancana, was unavailable, Cerone came to Frank Ferraro, then sottocapo of the Chicago Family under Giancana, which is exactly what the underboss was for. Additionally, however, Cerone told Ferraro that Rockford also wanted to speak with Chicago Heights capodecina Frank LaPorte. Ferraro noted that LaPorte was out of town (we know that LaPorte was often absent in the 60s and spending a lot of his time in CA) and stated that Al Pilotto should thus be contacted in LaPorte’s stead. So far as we know, Pilotto was a soldier at this point (in the 70s he succeeded LaPorte as capodecina), but clearly he had a recognized role where Ferraro knew that he was de facto/provisionally acting for LaPorte. I’d think that if a captain was going to be out of town for a period he would have to leave word with the admin/Council and probably designate a substitute at least in a de facto/provisional capacity.

My belief is that the Genovese “messagero” thing was not an official position; rather, a set of responsibilities that may not have correlated with a particular rank. When Cirillo was identified by the Feds as being the Westside’s liaison to Chicago, I believe this was just a responsibility that he carried out due to personal connections while he was formally a capodecina. Decades prior to Cirillo, Gaetano “Tony Goebels” Ricci seems to have been the Genovese “messagero” to Chicago, but so far as we know Ricci was a soldier, albeit a highly respected one, at this time. While we haven’t seen the term “messagero” used by Chicago sources (and it wouldn’t shock me if this term was used, given that Chicago was documented to use other terms that people long assumed they didn’t, and it’s a simple and common Italian word), there seem to have been Chicago members who served as liaisons to other Families: Aiuppa for STL and KC, Alderisio for Milwaukee, possibly Cerone for Rockford (given the above referenced wiretap). But these men were either capidecine (or, for Alderisio, a soldier at least for some of the period in question) and I assume that their responsibilities as liaisons were likely the same as what has been referred to as “messagero” for the Genovese.

When Joe N Gallo apparently had connections to NOLA, he didn’t have any formal “liaison position”; rather, he was able to serve as a conduit for connections between Families by dint of his own personal background and relationships. I assume this was the same for the Genovese “messageri”.

[Antiliar]

I think Tony said it perfectly. The position of "personal underboss" was invented by a poster on Joe Fosco's forum, but I'm not sure he meant it as an official position or a term of convenience. I think "crew underboss" or even "top lieutenant" are fine terms to use as long as it's made clear that they aren't official titles. I think it's useful information to know that Allegretti and then DiVarco were Ross Prio's top men. The "crew underboss" usually has almost the same authority as the capodecina when the capodecina is away, and he often acts as an intermediary between the capodecina and the rest of the crew. If one wants to make a chart, it would be informative to see who the "crew underbosses" were.

[CabriniGreen]

I think Tony said it perfectly. The position of "personal underboss" was invented by a poster on Joe Fosco's forum, but I'm not sure he meant it as an official position or a term of convenience. I think "crew underboss" or even "top lieutenant" are fine terms to use as long as it's made clear that they aren't official titles. I think it's useful information to know that Allegretti and then DiVarco were Ross Prio's top men. The "crew underboss" usually has almost the same authority as the capodecina when the capodecina is away, and he often acts as an intermediary between the capodecina and the rest of the crew. If one wants to make a chart, it would be informative to see who the "crew underbosses" were.

It might also just be a kind of "feature" of organization, or a kind of display of power. Also, sometimes power can emerge BEFORE it can be accounted for in codified rank.

On the first point, I'm thinking of Gotti making his moves, and sending Quack Quack to meet with DeCicco and Gravano. This was Gotti acting like the boss, before he was actually boss. Sending a rep. For a matter of organization. Is it a display of power? Or was he actually being prudent in his organizational approach as far as insulation? Both? When I said Feature of Organization, I really just mean maybe some crews get big enough where it eventually just makes sense to have a designated assistant. A lawyer starting out answers his own calls until he can afford a secretary, have junior associates..ect...

Did you see the Piromalli arrest? The boss delegated his vote on the massacre strategy to the Pesce clan boss. Thats why I said it also might be a power flex, as well as just good organization.

On the second point, about how (sometimes) power emerging BEFORE rank. I'm reminded about Gotti at a wedding " clocking" how many guys felt the NEED to pay their respects to him DIRECTLY. What he sensed, that couldn't be quantified by any charts or by rank, was that he was absorbing Dellacroces influence as he was slowing down from cancer. Or When he and DeCicco feel out the Luchesses about the hit on Paul, and they approach a SOLDIER, Casso. Because he was an EMERGENT power. He wouldn't make anyone's official chart as being that guy, but they understood power isn't BOUND by that chart.

[CabriniGreen]

Operationally he's close to the Bonannos and Gambinos and involved in NYC gambling machines but he's probably made with the Sciacca Family.

Now.. would that mean the Sciacca family has an active presence in NY through a direct affiliate?

Let's try a thought experiment... something Lovaglio said... I think it was him..

He said the Bonnano family was in Sicily. What would that mean? What would that look like exactly? What configuration would it take?

Assume an Italian article came out, using some really vague tortured language like..." The American faction of the Sicilian mafia"... It's one of the central questions Sixth Family ask... If the Sciacca family can be present in NY, under what circumstances could the Bonnanos be present in Sicily?


1. Could the Bonnanos have a decina in Sicily?
Let's say Montagna had decided to stay in Sicily. Could he have either, imported NY Bonnanos to form a decina?
Or, recruited from the local populace of......let's say both criminal and legal, and formed a decina on sight... so to speak?


2. Would he operate as a direct Bonnano operative in a specific industry or oversee a host of different activities?
This could be heroin or Buffalo mozzarella, or wine. Gambling or a legal investments in the tourism industry... whatever. Just economic interest.


3. Would he abdicate Bonnano membership and join the Castellemare Del Golfo family? If he was overseeing joint interest between families, would that make him a Bonnano operative still?


4. Would he be an independent operator, ala Fernandez? Or the Scoppas, or the various remnants of receding crime families as Pogo and Wiseguy would describe them? Virtual independents?


And Org- Ops thought experiment for you...

[B.]

An acting captain is an official title even though it isn't the official captain. When a guy is made acting captain he is supposed to be re-introduced by a third party with his title. We also have examples of guys being named acting captain over a crew with no official captain, like Frank Lino and others. In Philly, Scarfo made Iannarella and Delgiorno acting captains but I'm not sure if there was anybody with the official title and they were later made official like Lino was. In that use, it's more like a probationary title while they assess how the guy runs things.

A soldier being used as a messenger or representing his captain doesn't necessarily make him an acting captain, so it's hard to gauge from circumstantial evidence. Sometimes a guy serves as acting captain very briefly just because his captain is on vacation or in the hospital.

What's interesting about John Gotti is apparently he was never an official captain before he became boss even though he was running the Bergin crew pretty much himself for Fatico. Gravano was also acting when Castellano was killed but did become official for a time afterward.

[B.]

Operationally he's close to the Bonannos and Gambinos and involved in NYC gambling machines but he's probably made with the Sciacca Family.

Now.. would that mean the Sciacca family has an active presence in NY through a direct affiliate?

Let's try a thought experiment... something Lovaglio said... I think it was him..

He said the Bonnano family was in Sicily. What would that mean? What would that look like exactly? What configuration would it take?

Assume an Italian article came out, using some really vague tortured language like..." The American faction of the Sicilian mafia"... It's one of the central questions Sixth Family ask... If the Sciacca family can be present in NY, under what circumstances could the Bonnanos be present in Sicily?


1. Could the Bonnanos have a decina in Sicily?
Let's say Montagna had decided to stay in Sicily. Could he have either, imported NY Bonnanos to form a decina?
Or, recruited from the local populace of......let's say both criminal and legal, and formed a decina on sight... so to speak?


2. Would he operate as a direct Bonnano operative in a specific industry or oversee a host of different activities?
This could be heroin or Buffalo mozzarella, or wine. Gambling or a legal investments in the tourism industry... whatever. Just economic interest.


3. Would he abdicate Bonnano membership and join the Castellemare Del Golfo family? If he was overseeing joint interest between families, would that make him a Bonnano operative still?


4. Would he be an independent operator, ala Fernandez? Or the Scoppas, or the various remnants of receding crime families as Pogo and Wiseguy would describe them? Virtual independents?


And Org- Ops thought experiment for you...

This came up in Philly, where Joe Ida requested permission to form a Philly decina under him in Calabria. Bruno was open to it but said the Sicilian mafia had to approve. So in theory if the Sicilian mafia consented it could happen, at least historically.

Bonanno members traveling and staying in Sicily are still Bonannos unless they transfer. We know Mistretta owns property there which is why he met with Domingo. You also have guys like Joe Gatto of the DeCavalcante who stayed in Sicily for months every year and no doubt interacted with the Ribera Family but I imagine it was mostly social or related to his farm if there was any operational component.

Organizational is static and operational is fluid. Gucciardi as far as we know is "with" Sciacca and though he associates with the Bonannos he's still with Sciacca unless he transfers (assuming he is in fact made -- I'm not sure it's been confirmed but he seems to be). US Families can represent Sicilian mafiosi in their orbit if needed like the Gambinos did with Setteneri when he had problems with the Colombo Family in Florida in 2009 but a Gambino member had to sit down for him.

[chin_gigante]

In Philly, Scarfo made Iannarella and Delgiorno acting captains but I'm not sure if there was anybody with the official title and they were later made official like Lino was. In that use, it's more like a probationary title while they assess how the guy runs things.

We also have at least two instances of Philly using acting captains for official captains:

1. Patty Martirano appointed Scoops Licata his acting captain in 1988 while on the lam
2. In 1998-1999, Bobby Luisi left his cousin Paul Pepicelli as acting captain in Boston whenever he was out of town

Both of these show that Philly followed the same procedure as NY when it comes to captains having the authority to appoint their own acting captains, but the Licata example is particularly interesting. When Martirano first went on the lam, there was a brief period of time where day-to-day control of the crew in North Jersey was split operationally between Licata, Tony Attanasio (both soldiers), and George Fresolone (an associate), the latter acting as Martirano's messenger. It was later that Licata was sent down to Florida so that Martirano could officially appoint him as his acting captain.

Another thing that I think is relevant to this conversation is what John Pennisi said about how he and John Cerrella functioned under John Castellucci. While they both at different times were used and effectively operated as acting captains, they were never actually given the title because Castellucci was concerned that it could threaten the security of his own position. Pennisi makes a very clear distinction between being used like an acting captain and actually being appointed one.

[CornerBoy]

The plan from the beginning was to lure CornerBoy into this thread and get him banned. Everyone else was just collateral damage.

What do you mean?