oldest criminal groups still active

[scagghiuni]

Camorra?

the Camorra of the 1800s is not the same organization as it is today, there are not any clear lines of succession

[scagghiuni]

In 1838, Pietro Cala Ulloa, a judge in Trapani, wrote a report to the minister of Justice of the Bourbonic Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in Naples. In this document, he refers to partiti, sects which operate as “governments within the government.” Most historians take this as a reference to the Mafia. Italian historian Paolo Pezzino believes it started after 1830. I found evidence that I'm not at liberty to share that it was between 1810 and 1830, but I haven't seen anything to bring it back to the 1790s. I think it started after the British occupation of Sicily ended.

the problem is that before 1860s the word "mafia" was not used to indicate the criminal organization so it is difficult to identify it exactly

[scagghiuni]

Sicilian Mafia started between 1810 and 1830, and in New Orleans may go back to the 1850s.

It is probably true but there are not official documents that proofs it

are there official documents that PROVE the 'Ndrangheta go back that far? or the Yakuza?

the first documents on the Ndrangheta appeared at the end of the 19th century when it was called "picciotteria", the first Yakuza group was founded in 1868, there is the exact date

[Sullycantwell]

LCN started in the 1860's in New Orleans.

Thought it was here in NYC

Nicola Taranto mightve been the first New York boss. He immigrated in 1888 i think and was jailed in 1896. the New York herald interviewed secret service agents and the newspaper reported Taranto to be the "Supreme head of the mafia." though it is speculated it couldve started even earlier in NYC with a guy like Gaetano Russo. pretty sure the first confirmed boss (By a member) was Giuseppe Morello.

[Guest]

In 1838, Pietro Cala Ulloa, a judge in Trapani, wrote a report to the minister of Justice of the Bourbonic Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in Naples. In this document, he refers to partiti, sects which operate as “governments within the government.” Most historians take this as a reference to the Mafia. Italian historian Paolo Pezzino believes it started after 1830. I found evidence that I'm not at liberty to share that it was between 1810 and 1830, but I haven't seen anything to bring it back to the 1790s. I think it started after the British occupation of Sicily ended.

the problem is that before 1860s the word "mafia" was not used to indicate the criminal organization so it is difficult to identify it exactly

The word "Mafia" is used by outsiders. Members called it the Fratellanza or Fratuzzi, and each borgata had its own name like Nouva Fontana, Oblonica, etc., besides the aforementioned Fratellanza and Fratuzzi. The word "Mafia" comes from an 1863 play about the Camorra in the Palermo prison the Vicaria. The members didn't call themselves by that name, so it's irrelevant.

[Sullycantwell]

In 1838, Pietro Cala Ulloa, a judge in Trapani, wrote a report to the minister of Justice of the Bourbonic Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in Naples. In this document, he refers to partiti, sects which operate as “governments within the government.” Most historians take this as a reference to the Mafia. Italian historian Paolo Pezzino believes it started after 1830. I found evidence that I'm not at liberty to share that it was between 1810 and 1830, but I haven't seen anything to bring it back to the 1790s. I think it started after the British occupation of Sicily ended.

the problem is that before 1860s the word "mafia" was not used to indicate the criminal organization so it is difficult to identify it exactly

The word "Mafia" is used by outsiders. Members called it the Fratellanza or Fratuzzi, and each borgata had its own name like Nouva Fontana, Oblonica, etc., besides the aforementioned Fratellanza and Fratuzzi. The word "Mafia" comes from an 1863 play about the Camorra in the Palermo prison the Vicaria. The members didn't call themselves by that name, so it's irrelevant.

Good analysis. As Joe Bonanno said, it's an organization without a name.

[OmarSantista]

Is the distinction between lcn and Sicilian mafia/cosa nostra supposed to mean lcn is the American counterpart? I ask cause I would put it all under one banner my theory stems from just because it moved doesn't mean it started any later. Is adding the "la" supposed to make it that much more American, it evolved, of course but the one true origin of the group was birthed in Sicily most likely after the British occupancy. Your correct still, not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious what you and others might think about the concept of the different names pertaining to in essence the same organization in different countries. Great new topic btw

[Sullycantwell]

Is the distinction between lcn and Sicilian mafia/cosa nostra supposed to mean lcn is the American counterpart? I ask cause I would put it all under one banner my theory stems from just because it moved doesn't mean it started any later. Is adding the "la" supposed to make it that much more American, it evolved, of course but the one true origin of the group was birthed in Sicily most likely after the British occupancy. Your correct still, not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious what you and others might think about the concept of the different names pertaining to in essence the same organization in different countries. Great new topic btw

the American cosa nostra was an offshoot of the Sicilian cosa nostra. it was purposeful that they branched out, the Sicilian bosses sent members to America. as for the name, it really doesnt matter. the name cosa nostra first came from America IIRC so the name doesnt really matter. the "La" was an adaptation from J Edgar Hoover I think.

[scagghiuni]

In 1838, Pietro Cala Ulloa, a judge in Trapani, wrote a report to the minister of Justice of the Bourbonic Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in Naples. In this document, he refers to partiti, sects which operate as “governments within the government.” Most historians take this as a reference to the Mafia. Italian historian Paolo Pezzino believes it started after 1830. I found evidence that I'm not at liberty to share that it was between 1810 and 1830, but I haven't seen anything to bring it back to the 1790s. I think it started after the British occupation of Sicily ended.

the problem is that before 1860s the word "mafia" was not used to indicate the criminal organization so it is difficult to identify it exactly

The word "Mafia" is used by outsiders. Members called it the Fratellanza or Fratuzzi, and each borgata had its own name like Nouva Fontana, Oblonica, etc., besides the aforementioned Fratellanza and Fratuzzi. The word "Mafia" comes from an 1863 play about the Camorra in the Palermo prison the Vicaria. The members didn't call themselves by that name, so it's irrelevant.

yes, the word "mafia" is used by outsiders, but it is useful to understand if it was in the documents of 1800

[scagghiuni]

Is the distinction between lcn and Sicilian mafia/cosa nostra supposed to mean lcn is the American counterpart? I ask cause I would put it all under one banner my theory stems from just because it moved doesn't mean it started any later. Is adding the "la" supposed to make it that much more American, it evolved, of course but the one true origin of the group was birthed in Sicily most likely after the British occupancy. Your correct still, not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious what you and others might think about the concept of the different names pertaining to in essence the same organization in different countries. Great new topic btw

at first probably LCN was just "decinas" of the sicilian mafia that became independent later

[Cbert1]

the camorra in and around naples goes back well over 200 yrs.. evidence from books in the 1500s make mention of what's thought to be the"Camorra " controlling the gambling in around naples

[scagghiuni]

the camorra in and around naples goes back well over 200 yrs.. evidence from books in the 1500s make mention of what's thought to be the"Camorra " controlling the gambling in around naples

there is not any continuity, lines of succession, between the old Camorra and the today's one, it is not the same organization

[Villain]

Used to read somewhere that they were in fact partisan groups or started like that...

[johnny_scootch]

The Camorra of old lives on today in the heart of the Ndrangheta and nowhere else.

[Angelo Santino]

In 1838, Pietro Cala Ulloa, a judge in Trapani, wrote a report to the minister of Justice of the Bourbonic Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in Naples. In this document, he refers to partiti, sects which operate as “governments within the government.” Most historians take this as a reference to the Mafia. Italian historian Paolo Pezzino believes it started after 1830. I found evidence that I'm not at liberty to share that it was between 1810 and 1830, but I haven't seen anything to bring it back to the 1790s. I think it started after the British occupation of Sicily ended.

the problem is that before 1860s the word "mafia" was not used to indicate the criminal organization so it is difficult to identify it exactly

This is true. This is like trying to trace back the big bang and what helps us is that as much as the mafia has changed it has also stayed the same. It is regionally based and organized, it acts as a criminal freemasonry that protects and assists its members economically, it is rooted in influencing local markets. Its ranks are less like an army and more akin to a localized government, a system of representation. I know I know Consigliere, but I still see more commonalities with western agriculture communities at the time, within 10 farms one would be chosen to represent them- a capo de decina.

From 1807 to 1815, Sicily was controlled by the British, as shortlived as their control was they did move Sicily from a feudal system to a capitalist one- land could now be purchased. They apparently had a lasting impression as Sicily wanted to adopt a British-style constitution in sharp contrast to the the rest of southern Italy which opted for a French one, something the Carbonari/eria was pushing for. There are some early mafia associations which reference some Freemason terminology but its hard to take that further. We don't know what if any, how influential the Freemasons were from 1807-15 British occupied Sicily.

This is the biosphere that the mafia was created in. From earliest records it appears to have extended from lower to middle class which makes me believe that banditry was only one side of it. Important and economically powerful local families had family members affiliated with it. I don't know if it was a coalition of local power families wanting to control the economy or their black sheep members who sought to. We may never know.