Project Otremens Recordings

[Pogo The Clown]

I guess you missed all the needling above that prompted a response.


Pogo

[OcSleeper]

Ignore it. We've been given very interesting recordings from Project Otremens that discusses Bonannos, Buffalo, Gambinos, Cuntrera, 'Ndrangheta all in Ontario but you guys rather argue about some bullshit. You, wiseguy, NewyorkEmpire, and others have had the same argument for literally years and have just been repeating the same shit while derailing worthwhile discussions in multiple threads. I strongly hinted when I made this one it was to get away from your argument maybe thinking you guys might take the very obvious (clearly not obvious enough) hint to keep that shit out of here. If you insist on continuing the argument for another 5 years, do me the small favour of at least keeping it contained to the thread that already has 350+ pages of it. Is that too much to ask?

[antimafia]

I wish we knew why the RCMP didn’t get Morena to tape Dom Violi’s induction into the Buffalo Family in January 2015. Then Violi’s induction would have been nullified by that family.

Morena wasn't inducted until months after Violi so would not have been elligible to attend Violi's ceremony. Also has it been stated anywhere that the Bonanno family nullified Morena's membership after it was revealed he was cooperating? I don't recall reading that before.

You and others might recall that once we learned from Anna Sergi's June 5, 2018 article (https://www.academia.edu/36827024/New_Y ... ollaborate) that Domenico and Giuseppe Violi were present at the induction ceremony of the paid police agent (who 6 months later was identified by Jerry Capeci as a Vincenzo Morena, who was inducted in November 15, 2015), I erred in asserting that the Violi brothers must have been made Bonannos at the time of the induction because it would only and could only have been witnessed by members of that Family. But as other posters pointed out on this forum, there are precedents for members of one American LCN Family being present at the making ceremony(ies) of another such Family.

when the Agent was discussing the prospect for Joe Violi to join the Bonanno Family in New York City, Joe Violi apparently commented that he would rather stay put: “would only see them once every ten years … if you are never going to see these people what’s the point of being with them?”.

I wonder what exactly stay put means in this sense. Does it mean he doesn't want to be made? Or would he rather stay put within Buffalo's influence and be made with them? Both Dom and Joe Violi were present at the police informants induction which could imply he was made with Buffalo by that time.

I interpreted that as Joe Violi not wanting to be a Bonanno member rather than not being made at all. The notes cites that particular piece of information as coming from May 6, 2015, so if Violi was a Buffalo member by the time of Morena's ceremony he'd have to be made between May and November 2015.

However, I'm not sure Joe Violi was inducted at that time because the article also states when Dom is promoted to underboss in 2017 his brother's affiliation is regarded as an "outstanding item to consider".

If we knew for a fact that only made members of any American LCN Family are permitted to witness another Family's inductions, your timeline about when Giuseppe Violi had to have been made into the Buffalo Family is correct. But as you also wrote above, there seems to be uncertainty about whether Giuseppe Violi had the rank of soldier in November 2017 -- so if he wasn't made when he was at Morena's November 15, 2015 induction, why couldn't an unmade Morena have been present at Domenico Violi's January 2015 induction?

Pierre de Champlain† (buonanima) gave examples of problematic inductions on pp. 70-74 of Mobsters, Gangsters and Men of Honour, the 2004 English edition of his original French-language book. Two such inductions were taped -- one by the FBI, one by an inductee. In the first ceremony(ies), Patriarca Family associates Vincent Federico, Robert DeLuca, Carmen Tortora, and Richard Floramo were inducted in the Bedford, MA home of the sister of one of these individuals; however, de Champlain does not write that the inductions were nullified because the FBI taped the ceremonies. In the second ceremony, Philadelphia Family associate George Fresolone taped his own initiation -- as de Champlain writes: "In an unprecedented case, an initiation ceremony was invalidated afer it was discovered to have been taped by one of the inductees." The description that follows of this second example doesn't make entirely clear as to whether the taping of the ceremony was the strongest reason or even the sole reason for invalidating Fresolone's ceremony, nor is there comment about the inductions of the 3 other Philadelphia Family "associates" that day in the Bronx, one of whom was Gambino associate Nicholas Olivieri. I suspect that all these individuals have been discussed on TBHF previously but I haven't searched for the relevant posts.

Recall that retired Halton Regional Police Service Sgt. Stephen Metelsky indicated in his Mob Museum presentation that Vincenzo Morena, while in Italy after having been deported from the United States, contacted the RCMP about volunteering to be a police agent. I thought I was clever when I speculated that Morena was persuaded by the RCMP to become a police agent after his having been arrested in August 2014 in Laval, just north of Montreal. Turns out I was wrong about the reason for Morena's decision to become a police agent and when he made the decision.

I'm not sure whether the "legality" of an induction is arcane knowledge in the various secret societies or is obviously sometimes a quick decision of "no" in the case of law-enforcement officials and police agents who manage to get inducted -- the essence of an initiation could be a thread on its own -- and what the RCMP, FBI, and Morena think about his "made" status should be a part of the conversation.

[Cheech]

I guess you missed all the needling above that prompted a response.


Pogo

I needled. I was messing around. were too serious sometimes. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle...

[Cheech]

Ignore it. We've been given very interesting recordings from Project Otremens that discusses Bonannos, Buffalo, Gambinos, Cuntrera, 'Ndrangheta all in Ontario but you guys rather argue about some bullshit. You, wiseguy, NewyorkEmpire, and others have had the same argument for literally years and have just been repeating the same shit while derailing worthwhile discussions in multiple threads. I strongly hinted when I made this one it was to get away from your argument maybe thinking you guys might take the very obvious (clearly not obvious enough) hint to keep that shit out of here. If you insist on continuing the argument for another 5 years, do me the small favour of at least keeping it contained to the thread that already has 350+ pages of it. Is that too much to ask?

ill take the blame. I needled wiseguy. we been posting together for over a decade, just having fun. I prolly shouldn't have,

very good thread. great breakdown all.

[Cheech]

Excellent thread that sheds new light and opens new questions about the politics in Canada and for that matter the US.

Interested in knowing who the NYC Bonanno leader was who formally introduced the Sicilian-made Caruana-Cuntreras to others.

We as outsiders continue to be humbled by what we don't know.

could it have been Porky?

[JoeCamel]

No way anyone can deny the buffalo mobs existence anymore

Speak for yourself. I myself I'm not buying into the forum hype. We have been though this countless times over the years and it always ends up one way.


Pogo

Yup. There's little, if anything, in the above info that is new and hasn't been addressed ad nauseum. Not sure why people are acting like there is other than some seem to have selective amnesia whenever this subject comes up.

Like I said, there's people here who follow the mob regularly, have a decent grasp on the subject overall, but are just lost when it comes to the current landscape of things. It really is bizarre.

Truth will cut it's own way. Time will prove this Buffalo mob still existing horseshit a fantasy just like it did with the Detroit.

Dude the only delusional ones are you, pogo, and sonny black hater

[B.]

Pierre de Champlain† (buonanima) gave examples of problematic inductions on pp. 70-74 of Mobsters, Gangsters and Men of Honour, the 2004 English edition of his original French-language book. Two such inductions were taped -- one by the FBI, one by an inductee. In the first ceremony(ies), Patriarca Family associates Vincent Federico, Robert DeLuca, Carmen Tortora, and Richard Floramo were inducted in the Bedford, MA home of the sister of one of these individuals; however, de Champlain does not write that the inductions were nullified because the FBI taped the ceremonies. In the second ceremony, Philadelphia Family associate George Fresolone taped his own initiation -- as de Champlain writes: "In an unprecedented case, an initiation ceremony was invalidated afer it was discovered to have been taped by one of the inductees." The description that follows of this second example doesn't make entirely clear as to whether the taping of the ceremony was the strongest reason or even the sole reason for invalidating Fresolone's ceremony, nor is there comment about the inductions of the 3 other Philadelphia Family "associates" that day in the Bronx, one of whom was Gambino associate Nicholas Olivieri. I suspect that all these individuals have been discussed on TBHF previously but I haven't searched for the relevant posts.

As far as I know there's no rule that a ceremony is invalidated by a recording. The Patriarca guys appear to have been recognized afterward and there's mixed info on whether the Philadelphia ceremony was invalidated. One issue cited by Scoops Licata before it was known Fresolone was an informant was that they didn't pass the list of proposed members to the New York Families and he attempted to make a beef about it, but 20 years later Licata was recorded saying they only passed the names to New York out of respect and indicated it wasn't required (the implication from Fresolone is Licata was trying to invalidate the 1990 ceremony for his own reasons).

There seems to be confusion over whether the Violis attended the actual "ceremony" in the hotel room or an adjacent get together. Someone pointed out the surveillance still of the hotel room only showed three people. It's not uncommon for non-members to attend a celebration after an induction so that may explain Joe Violi being there if he wasn't yet made.

[snip]
It's amazing what a few snippets from a member CI's cooperation can reveal about Canada. It opens many new questions but shows international Cosa Nostra formalities are still a factor in their politics / relationships despite outsiders making their best guesses.

Vincenzo Morena (CW-1 in Project OTremens trial transcripts and Canadian news articles) was not a member CI. A number of posters on various forums have made this error. He was a paid RCMP agent whose reliability had to be repeatedly assessed by the RCMP as though he were a cooperating informant. The RCMP stratagem to get Morena inducted into the Bonanno Family and to record his own induction ceremony was artifice that resulted in artificial situations, interactions, and conversations. His recording of his induction, once discovered by the Bonanno Family, would be the reason for the Family’s immediate nullification of his Bonanno membership. The RCMP’s and Morena’s mileage may vary.

I wish we knew why the RCMP didn’t get Morena to tape Dom Violi’s induction into the Buffalo Family in January 2015. Then Violi’s induction would have been nullified by that family.

You've explained the RCMP agent / CI distinction before and I'm not deliberately ignoring it or attempting to put it US terms, but in a colloquial sense Morena was an associate made into the Bonanno Family while cooperating with LE, which is an equivalent to a member CI. There are obviously other nuances to being an "RCMP agent" but as you said he would be assessed as a member CI would.

I understand when someone is cooperating they create situations intended to generate intelligence and criminal evidence but he certainly didn't invent the organizational landscape in Canada and all of the time-honored designations and formalities Violi discussed in context with his own Family and the other groups he interacted with.

What's significant to me is this is the first time I've seen Violi quoted speculating about Joe Todaro approving violence in Canada. Who knows if he approved any murders, but Violi at least felt it was possible. I'm particularly interested in details like Natale Luppino not recognizing the two Caruana-Cuntreras, Todaro's reaction to Iavarone/Caputo's induction, and the formal introduction between Violi and his uncles (it's a longstanding rule that a promotion requires a third party introduction).

In terms of formalities, the details here are similar to what US member CIs have discussed since the FBI began its post-Apalachin investigation into the American mafia.

[B.]

Big question is whether the high-ranking Bonanno member who introduced the Cuntreras as amico nostra was an "NYC Bonanno" as the original post says or a Montreal-based Bonanno member. It's not clear if the leader in question was NYC-based or it's referring to the Bonanno Family itself being NYC-based.

It would make more sense in context if a Canadian Bonanno member made the introduction but it'd be even more interesting if an NYC-based Bonanno member made the introduction given it appears to have involved Ontario Buffalo members and members of the Sicilian mafia in Canada.

[chin_gigante]

What's significant to me is this is the first time I've seen Violi quoted speculating about Joe Todaro approving violence in Canada. Who knows if he approved any murders, but Violi at least felt it was possible.

Also interesting that this conversation between J Violi and Morena took place in January 2016. So Violi felt it was possible that Todaro could have approved violence while Falzone was still alive.

[PolackTony]

What's significant to me is this is the first time I've seen Violi quoted speculating about Joe Todaro approving violence in Canada. Who knows if he approved any murders, but Violi at least felt it was possible.

Also interesting that this conversation between J Violi and Morena took place in January 2016. So Violi felt it was possible that Todaro could have approved violence while Falzone was still alive.

Good catch. Could support Todaro already acting for Falzone by that time.

[NickleCity]

What's significant to me is this is the first time I've seen Violi quoted speculating about Joe Todaro approving violence in Canada. Who knows if he approved any murders, but Violi at least felt it was possible.

Also interesting that this conversation between J Violi and Morena took place in January 2016. So Violi felt it was possible that Todaro could have approved violence while Falzone was still alive.

Fino has indicated that Falzone was fronting for the Todaros and that is what I know in Buffalo always believed.

[chin_gigante]

Checking the surveillance of the ceremony again it certainly seems like only three people were present in the room for the induction itself.

20221202_002233.jpg

The angle's pretty wide and we see a lot of the room so if anyone else was in there we'd probably see them.

20221202_002335.jpg

In the above it looks like Zummo is the bald guy on the right and Morena is the one with the pixelated face. Not sure who the balding guy in the middle is but it doesn't look like either of the Violis to me. From their mugshots the hair doesn't match.

20221202_003012.jpg

[Cheech]

The commission exists, LA family, Tampa, Buffalo . He’s literally dropped a toaster in the bathtub because they are going to put a contract on him for failing to suppress the truth

And Piduzzu the Wing Don is an ally of the Genovese, Colombo, and Bonanno Families but might be at odds with the Gambino Family. The Lucchese Family doesn't recognize the Bonanno or Philly bosses. The Gambinos are backing the Los Angeles Family who are inducting members in Buffalo's Canadian territory. Caruana-Cuntreras made in Sicily are getting introduced by NYC Bonanno members but there are questions about recognition, Joe Violi has the option of joining Buffalo or the Bonannos, Bonanno captains are being introduced to Merlino as Philly boss while DeCavalcante old timers are present, and in the last 12 years made members of the Los Angeles, Buffalo, and Bonanno Families have been killed in Canada

Funny how having a couple new member sources works out.

Roemer wishes he wrote this book.

Crazy but man thats pretty much it

[B.]

What's significant to me is this is the first time I've seen Violi quoted speculating about Joe Todaro approving violence in Canada. Who knows if he approved any murders, but Violi at least felt it was possible.

Also interesting that this conversation between J Violi and Morena took place in January 2016. So Violi felt it was possible that Todaro could have approved violence while Falzone was still alive.

Also shoots down the idea that a distinct "reorganization" took place when Falzone died. It does seem Todaro began reinvigorating the Hamilton branch around this period but he was at least interested in what was going on there and in touch with Hamilton beforehand.

There's an assumption that Domenico Violi's long wait to be made was because Buffalo wasn't making members for a significant time, which could be true, but there could be any number of reasons why he was made when he was. Interesting too they mention the "no drug dealing" rule as Magaddino outlined that to Sam Pieri on tape in 1963, but of course it gets broken. Curious if Violi's repututation for narcotics trafficking delayed his induction.

The Luppino brothers come across very serious about how things are meant to be done. Violi needing to be introduced to his uncles as underboss by Todaro reminds me of Amedeo Indelicato being made in Philly and going to Catania but having to wait for Calogero Sinatra to come back from the US to officially introduce Indelicato to his father. This is a much shorter distance of course.