Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[SonnyBlackstein]

Dude. I got it. And yet it still shows how bizarre you are trying to cross post on a topic with another topic youre wrong about to try and save face and act cool.

No, you didnt get it.

[Newyorkempire]

Further evidence Toronto was under Buffalo...from Antimafias post from a different topic...

"When the Commisso brothers of the Siderno Group in Toronto were plotting to kill Ontario-based Paul Volpe of the Buffalo Family, one of the brothers was observed travelling by car, along with Volpe's cousin Angelo Pucci, from Toronto to Buffalo. Law enforcement believed this trip was evidence of permission being sought from the Buffalo Family to whack Volpe."

Yup. The word "Toronto" was in the same sentence as Ontario, as Buffalo, which = Toronto under da Buffawo famawee.

You win.



Maybe we should be looking at the Australian connection....??

Clearly your reading comprehension is at a minimal level if thats what you took away from that entire quote. Seek education and therapy asap.

[Newyorkempire]

Dude. I got it. And yet it still shows how bizarre you are trying to cross post on a topic with another topic youre wrong about to try and save face and act cool.

No, you didnt get it.

Sure. Keep reaching. Youre really getting somewhere. Better call for reinforcements, this isnt your best performance.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Dude, its over.

[NickleCity]

There are differing opinions and theories about Buffalo’s significance in Canada but it is unfair to act as if their are no credible authors/journalist that believe Magaddino had significant if not near outright control of certain rackets like gambling in Toronto. Is Stephan Schneider’s research and tome on Canadian Organized Crime not credible? I believe he is or has been a criminology professor.









Schneider then goes on to talk about how Papalia goes after Bluestein the last remaining independent.

It’s, also, interesting how Schneider talks about the early Calabrian and how they partnered with and/or where under Magaddino after Perri.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Nickle, Toronto is a city of 5mil people. 500k Italians. You want to believe Buffalo was calling the shots in a city the size of Chicago? Sure. Show me the crews, show me the buttons, show me Capo's. But Toronto ISNT Hamilton, or Niagara. Papalia, Musitano did not have shit in Toronto.

Everybody can quote some obscure passage from a book referencing Papaglia, but everybody is shit scared of answering the question of the fucking 9 N'drines here since the 50's.

Small thorn in foot no?

Answer that question boys.

[NickleCity]

Nickle, Toronto is a city of 5mil people. 500k Italians. You want to believe Buffalo was calling the shots in a city the size of Chicago? Sure. Show me the crews, show me the buttons, show me Capo's. But Toronto ISNT Hamilton, or Niagara. Papalia, Musitano did not have shit in Toronto.

Everybody can quote some obscure passage from a book referencing Papaglia, but everybody is shit scared of answering the question of the fucking 9 N'drines here since the 50's.

Small thorn in foot no?

Answer that question boys.

I don’t want to speak for NewYork Empire… but I don’t think he was saying they had outright control of everything. That is not the way I read his original comments anyway.

I don’t believe Buffalo had outright control of everything either and that is not what I wrote. Look at what I wrote again please. I think that is what Rooster asked you to do as well-maybe not as kindly.

Schneider does indicate Magaddino had near complete control of gambling, had it down to one independent not paying tribute.

Now, it’s been a long time since I read the book, but if I remember correctly Schneider does talk about the fact that Magaddino couldn’t exert total control of everything and Papalia was unable to take one Bluestein’s gambling operation.

My point is the things we know about the mafia are not as cut and dry as we would like them to be. Therefore we can’t blindly follow the consensus or even our own presuppositions. We need to question things. We need more people sharing not less. I feel people were out to silence me through ridicule because I had a dissenting opinion from the majority on Buffalo.

I’m with MotorFab you and NewYorkEmpire are both right. Let’s explore that to learn more about each other’s evidence, beliefs, and opinions on the matter.

About the obscurity issue you raised, is Schneider an obscure researcher and criminologist? I don’t know.

I wouldn’t call his book on Canadian Organized Crime an obscure book-though. Maybe I’m wrong-just explain how.

I know Schneider has more knowledge on the history of OC in Canada and the connections certain groups have to Buffalo so I’m going to learn from him. If you have a recommendation on another author that disputes what Schneider writes about Buffalo’s connections in Canada and specifically Toronto- please point me to the book and relevant sections.

[stubbs]

The book “Mafia Inc” states that in 1931 the commission placed Ontario under Buffalo and Quebec under the Bonannos. Not sure how true that is, but it’s interesting.

For a few decades at least, every LCN member in Ontario was likely under Buffalo, or at least paid tribute to them.

However, the Ndrangheta is a completely different organization with different rules and different membership. They likely operated and still operate completely outside of the rules of the American cosa nostra as well as the Sicilian cosa nostra.

Obviously, the Buffalo family has a history of having powerful members of Calabrian origins, but that doesn’t mean that Buffalo controlled the Ndrangheta in Toronto. I’m sure there were and are some times where they team up to work together on rackets, but it doesn’t seem likely that the Ndrangheta was ever controlled by the Buffalo LCN. The Comission’s rule likely only applied to members of the American and Sicilian LCN.

Either way, at some point the Buffalo family became much weaker and was not able to exercise as much control over Ontario. We see this with groups like the Musitanos who got closer to the Rizzuto group in the 90s. One also cannot forget Rizzuto growing rackets in Toronto and greater Ontario in the 90s.

We also know the Bonannos have made members in Ontario today. I can’t remember how far back the history Bonannos having made men in Ontario goes, but one of the great researchers here can likely chime in.

From “Mafia Inc”:

When it had created the Commission back in 1931, the American Cosa Nostra had decreed that their interests in Quebec would be controlled by the Bonanno crime family of New York City, while Ontario belonged to the Magaddinos of Buffalo. Joe Bonanno and Stefano Magaddino were cousins from the same Sicilian town, Castellammare del Golfo. The two godfathers had their share of conflicts over the years; when Magaddino suspected his cousin of widening his territorial ambitions, he had his men kidnap Bonanno (see Chapter 3). In the end, though, each family had respected the other’s turf. Southern Ontario remained the preserve of the Buffalo family until Magaddino’s death in 1974, but in the years since, his successors had had trouble keeping a lid on things.

Giacomo Luppino was the Buffalo crew’s long-time representative in Ontario. He never marshalled the power necessary to strike back after the murder of his son-in-law, Paolo Violi, by the Rizzuto clan. He died in 1987, having reached the venerable age of eighty-eight, and was replaced by John “Johnny Pops” Papalia, who despite his other nickname, The Enforcer, was no more successful in imposing hegemony over his entire territory, which nominally encompassed the cities of Toronto and Hamilton as well as the Niagara Peninsula. In Hamilton, despite the fact that it was his home base, Johnny Pops had to share power with the Luppinos and, especially, the Musitanos.

One more quote from informant Ken Murdock, also from “Mafia Inc”:

According to Murdock’s version of events, Niagara Falls mobsters were fed up with being a mere satellite of the Buffalo outfit, which they felt now lacked organization and scope. “They preferred dealing with the guys in Toronto and Montreal,” he explained to his handlers. “They were fed up of paying tribute money to the Americans.”

[B.]

Great posts.

- Magaddino said the Montreal Bonanno crew was supposed to have ten members (a true decina) but Bonanno inducted a number of additional members in Ontario without approval. Magaddino said on one tape he had interests in Ontario going back to the early 1920s and from other tapes we know Ontario member Calogero Bordonaro was already active with the Buffalo Family by that time. Buffalo def had a presence there long before the Commission.

- There's a great Magaddino tape where he talks about how a Longo from San Giorgio Morgeto (a relative of LA member Dominic Longo) was proposed for membership in the 'Ndrangheta in Ontario and they reached out to the Buffalo Family to vouch for the guy, but Magaddino said he couldn't do this, saying they had to check with their own "societies" -- it's pretty clear he's saying as a Cosa Nostra Family he wasn't in a position to involve himself in their formal protocol.

- Magaddino definitely understood the set-up of the 'Ndrangheta and they had a relationship but they couldn't participate in each others' formal activities. Magaddino did apparently induct 'Ndrangheta figures into Cosa Nostra (much as the Sicilian mafia inducted Neapolitan Camorristi in the 1970s), as Giacomo Luppino was carried as a Buffalo member in FBI reports. Based on what's currently available on this practice in the US and Italy, Cosa Nostra tends to induct leading members of the mainland groups but doesn't "absorb" their organizations or induct them in significant numbers.

[Newyorkempire]

Dude, its over.

Dude. It was over way before you said it was.

[Newyorkempire]

Nickle, Toronto is a city of 5mil people. 500k Italians. You want to believe Buffalo was calling the shots in a city the size of Chicago? Sure. Show me the crews, show me the buttons, show me Capo's. But Toronto ISNT Hamilton, or Niagara. Papalia, Musitano did not have shit in Toronto.

Everybody can quote some obscure passage from a book referencing Papaglia, but everybody is shit scared of answering the question of the fucking 9 N'drines here since the 50's.

Small thorn in foot no?

Answer that question boys.

Incorrect on population numbers. The city of Toronto is about 3 million, and the GTA, which I assume you meant when shooting out the number of "5 million" is actually close to 7 million, not sure where you are pulling your numbers from, although your number of 500,000 Italians seems to be in line with most reports out there.

Stating that Papalia didnt have "shit" in Toronto is incorrect, youre just wrong and making things up now even after evidence points otherwise. And even when it comes to Musitano, he in fact did have interests in Toronto per several reports, so youre wrong again.

Not sure where Chicago fits in to this, thats obscure.

Further, no one is disputing ndrines' presence nor are they "shit scared" to answer about their relativity in modern day or in the past.

Again, read the very first post that was wrote and follow every article provided (take away Ed Scarpo if youd like it Pogos request) now by several posters (who you have said think Im a joke, simply to deflect your flailing misunderstanding on this topic).

You lost a lot of "forum prestige" on this round, better luck next time.

[johnny_scootch]

ICED by Schneider is the best book on historical Canadian OC that there is and it should be mandatory reading for everyone partaking in this thread.

[Moscone65]

Nickle, Toronto is a city of 5mil people. 500k Italians. You want to believe Buffalo was calling the shots in a city the size of Chicago? Sure. Show me the crews, show me the buttons, show me Capo's. But Toronto ISNT Hamilton, or Niagara. Papalia, Musitano did not have shit in Toronto.

Everybody can quote some obscure passage from a book referencing Papaglia, but everybody is shit scared of answering the question of the fucking 9 N'drines here since the 50's.

Small thorn in foot no?

Answer that question boys.

Musitano until recently had people in the southern parts of toronto, closest to hamilton such as oakville and parts of missisauga. I know of some people who were quite friendly with him here in york region (north of toronto). Sure pat didint have dominance in woodbridge or etobicoke but he and his group definitely had friends in the GTA. I have no clue if he was still subservient to anyone in buffalo, and to what degree, but if he was then buffalo did have some influence up here. I am more inclined to believe that after vito rizzuto died, his group became a completely independant cell ofits own and no longer tied to buffalo or montreal.

[Moscone65]

some of his "toronto" guys were dean costanza and joe catroppa, who also was close to the commissos.

[Newyorkempire]

Nickle, Toronto is a city of 5mil people. 500k Italians. You want to believe Buffalo was calling the shots in a city the size of Chicago? Sure. Show me the crews, show me the buttons, show me Capo's. But Toronto ISNT Hamilton, or Niagara. Papalia, Musitano did not have shit in Toronto.

Everybody can quote some obscure passage from a book referencing Papaglia, but everybody is shit scared of answering the question of the fucking 9 N'drines here since the 50's.

Small thorn in foot no?

Answer that question boys.

Musitano until recently had people in the southern parts of toronto, closest to hamilton such as oakville and parts of missisauga. I know of some people who were quite friendly with him here in york region (north of toronto). Sure pat didint have dominance in woodbridge or etobicoke but he and his group definitely had friends in the GTA. I have no clue if he was still subservient to anyone in buffalo, and to what degree, but if he was then buffalo did have some influence up here. I am more inclined to believe that after vito rizzuto died, his group became a completely independant cell ofits own and no longer tied to buffalo or montreal.

Agreed. Thats where the current shift lay. Luppinos who have always maintained ties to Buffalo go to war with Musitanos with Buffalo as possibly just a proxy. Violi named underboss. Realignment in Hamilton takes place on Buffalos account. Everything has come full circle from the death of Papalia.