Is there even a commission anymore?

[Pogo The Clown]

Also Ralph Natale was cought on tape in the mid-90s saying there was no Commission when discussing Nicky Scarfo's plot to take back control of Philly (by killing Natale, Merlino and Previte). So that's two Bosses from this era saying there was no Commission.


Pogo

Well that's a wrap. Are there transcripts of that tape/recording?

I don't know but the conversation is recounted in The Last Gangster.


Pogo

[B.]

An interesting angle to this is the recognition of new bosses. In recent years the Lucchese leadership refused to recognize Mancuso and Merlino and this played into larger problems. It played into the Lucchese/Bonanno beef and it's also what empowered the Scarfos to keep their dream alive to take back Philly. By Pennisi's time the refusal to recognize Merlino was given lip service but at least some of the members buddy around with Merlino. I'd be curious if the Lucchese members have been formally introduced to Merlino as boss or if they keep it social. Also wondering if the Mancuso issue played into Cammarano being voted in as the new boss.

Speaking of Natale, he said before he made his move on Philly he checked to see if John Stanfa was recognized by NYC as boss, which he wasn't. Michael DiLeonardo confirmed for us that Gotti sent word not to recognize Stanfa.

When the Commission was around it was their duty to ratify the election of a new boss, but without the Commission it seems like the individual Family chooses whether or not to recognize someone as boss and people use this for political plays. I've never seen anything about individual Families refusing to recognize a boss during the Commission era, only the Commission itself doing it which individual Families thae follow.

[B.]

^^^ Did Pennisi ever say he was formally introduced to Merlino as the Philly boss or for that matter as a "friend"? He mentions hanging out with Merlino but can't remember if he said formalities were included.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Also Ralph Natale was cought on tape in the mid-90s saying there was no Commission when discussing Nicky Scarfo's plot to take back control of Philly (by killing Natale, Merlino and Previte). So that's two Bosses from this era saying there was no Commission.

Oh, Ralph Natale said ther was no commission did he?

What else did he say, apart from being made by Gambino, Bruno, Jesus, Jesus's mom.

[jimmyb]

An interesting angle to this is the recognition of new bosses. In recent years the Lucchese leadership refused to recognize Mancuso and Merlino and this played into larger problems. It played into the Lucchese/Bonanno beef and it's also what empowered the Scarfos to keep their dream alive to take back Philly. By Pennisi's time the refusal to recognize Merlino was given lip service but at least some of the members buddy around with Merlino. I'd be curious if the Lucchese members have been formally introduced to Merlino as boss or if they keep it social. Also wondering if the Mancuso issue played into Cammarano being voted in as the new boss.

Speaking of Natale, he said before he made his move on Philly he checked to see if John Stanfa was recognized by NYC as boss, which he wasn't. Michael DiLeonardo confirmed for us that Gotti sent word not to recognize Stanfa.

When the Commission was around it was their duty to ratify the election of a new boss, but without the Commission it seems like the individual Family chooses whether or not to recognize someone as boss and people use this for political plays. I've never seen anything about individual Families refusing to recognize a boss during the Commission era, only the Commission itself doing it which individual Families thae follow.

I don't want to derail this thread, but i find it interesting Gotti would not recognize Stanfa. I believe Stanfa was asking for the Gambinos to intervene on his behalf. Didn't the feds catch Stanfa talking to Tommy Gambino on a wiretap about this? Rosario's son Tommy, to be specific. I believe Tommy told him it wasn't possible. Maybe because of Gotti. Does this timeline sound correct?

[SonnyBlackstein]

If we had Todaro himself on tape saying he contacted the Commision the Buffalo thread would be 3000 pages. Violi's word still counts, but the reformation of the Commission would be huge and we can't be sure if he meant it literally or if he simply meant Todaro contacted the NYC bosses. Like Antiliar said earlier, we're not in a position to truly know so I'm agnostic and can only go with the last known info, which is that the Commission as we once understood it ceased to exist in the mid-1980s.

Disregard the Underbosses statements completely.
Violi, the UB, states there is a commission, and your response is to dismiss with zero evidence. Why> Because the number one isnt saying it.
"We dont have the #1 saying it, so we should disregard the number 2 saying it"

Is literally your argument.
Jeezus H. B.

Glad "Violi's word still counts". Ie the Underboss of a family.

Where have we heard you ignoring the #2 statements at any cost in favour of the number 1 before.....


Anyone say narrative?
It would almost seem as though we dismiss UB and what they say as a matter of course......

[B.]

Violi was discussing his own firsthand experience being promoted to underboss of Buffalo-Ontario. With NYC he was relaying what Todaro told him and we don't know if what he said to Morena was what Todaro told him verbatim or if he was paraphrasing or generalizing. I'm agnostic, as I said, so sounds like you're arguing just to argue if you think I'm for/against the idea of a reformed Commission.

When it comes to the so-called "Commission" meeting Massino addressed, I don't know what his incentive would be to lie. It would actually make Massino out to be more important if he claimed to have presided over a Commission meeting and the result is still the same, that the Families had an important meeting. If Massino says it wasn't a Commission meeting I believe him.

I don't want to derail this thread, but i find it interesting Gotti would not recognize Stanfa. I believe Stanfa was asking for the Gambinos to intervene on his behalf. Didn't the feds catch Stanfa talking to Tommy Gambino on a wiretap about this? Rosario's son Tommy, to be specific. I believe Tommy told him it wasn't possible. Maybe because of Gotti. Does this timeline sound correct?

I think you're putting the thread back on track, not derailing haha.

DiLeonardo's info indicated they may have stopped recognizing Stanfa later. He mentioned the fact that Stanfa inducted an ex-cop as one of the reasons. I'm not sure if he initially had support from the Gambino Family to take over or what.

One source said John Gambino intially backed Reds Pontani as acting boss in the 1980s but Pontani went to prison before that could happen. Stanfa was very close to the Gambino Sicilian faction so he may well have had their support as we've long believed, but by the time things got rolling John Gambino was in prison. Tommy Gambino said he couldn't help Stanfa, with the implication being the Sicilians lacked the resources to do so at the time (probably true), but with the new info in mind it's possible Tommy was trying to be respectful to his father Rosario's close friend while also honoring the Gambino's edict to not recognize Stanfa.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I think Massino shows a pattern of minimization at every turn.
I think he believes downplaying everything would assist him.

Nobody was clipped because of the FBI. It was just some internal things.

There is no commission anymore. It was just a meet to discuss a few odds and ends.

I think, he thought, downplaying events would be beneficial to himself.

[MightyDR]

I really think it depends on what Massino’s definition of The Commission is and what he was aware of. He testified that there wasn’t a Commission meeting since 1985, but Gravano and Casso both said there was one in the late 80s. One of the topics was actually whether or not to let the Bonannos back in.

Joe DeFede testified that he attended eight Commission meetings between 1994 and 1998 as acting boss of the Luccheses and Peter Gotti represented the Gambinos despite just being a captain then.
https://imageupload.io/i/94L2F7jiOf

Sal Vitale testified that he attended numerous Commission meetings as a representative of the Bonannos. Since there was only representatives attending for the other families, Massino thought it was beneath him to go. Maybe that is why he didn’t consider them real Commission meetings.
https://imageupload.io/i/Te1uNdO3jJ

[SonnyBlackstein]

Great info DR.

B./Pogo. Any thoughts on Joe Defed testifying there were EIGHT different COMMISSION meetings between 94 and 98?

Joe's word still indisputable?

[SonnyBlackstein]

Defede was acting boss.

[B.]

It's a good point that others still perceived there to be a Commission, though Massino outranked the other sources by a hair. It comes down to how these guys defined the Commission. They seem to have felt the Commission = NYC bosses/reps having a meeting, while Massino understood it to be a distinct formal body with official seats and processes. The latter is what the Commission actually was.

Massino's take is funny enough very similar to Joe Bonanno's. Joe Bonanno felt the Commission was illegitimate and no longer functioning by the mid-1960s because the traditional formalities had been ignored. Joe Massino felt there was no functioning Commission after the mid-1980s for somewhat similar reasons, though in his case he had no personal stake in it like Bonanno.

[MightyDR]

I looked over Massino's testimony and found another interesting one. He said in June 1991 he was made boss by the the Commission and the Bonanno family.

Now at this point Gotti and Persico were in prison and Amuso was on the lam, so if a Commission meeting was held to agree that he was the boss it would have had to of been done with representatives.

[B.]

So there are inconsistencies in his use of it as well. Sonny will love that. I'm sure this would be at the top of the list if he ever did an interview or Q&A.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I looked over Massino's testimony and found another interesting one. He said in June 1991 he was made boss by the the Commission and the Bonanno family.

B.

Game.