General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Coloboy]

With that said, I always wondered about the Marcello prison tape where he is talking about Sarno and he says something along the lines of “what is he bringing in each month”. I took that to mean Marcello was getting a piece of whatever sarno was making.

Do we assume this was because Marcello was already getting tributes as boss of the outfit before his release? It wouldn’t make sense for sarno to kick up to Marcello otherwise since they were in different crews.

[Ninored]

Does anyone know why Sam Giancana was able to sleep with Marshall Caifano's wife without any consequences.

One of the basic rules was that you could not sleep with another members wife .

Couldn't he have gone to Ricca or Accardo and got permission to kill him?

[Antiliar]

I can't recall the source, but I remember reading that Caifano slept with another member's wife before Giancana slept with his. I've read about several Outfit members who slept with the wives of other members. Chicago was apparently quite a swinging town. Some engaged in sexual activity that would have gotten them killed elsewhere, but as long as they made money no one cared.

[PolackTony]

I can't recall the source, but I remember reading that Caifano slept with another member's wife before Giancana slept with his. I've read about several Outfit members who slept with the wives of other members. Chicago was apparently quite a swinging town. Some engaged in sexual activity that would have gotten them killed elsewhere, but as long as they made money no one cared.

My understanding is also that Caifano had slept with a member's wife (don't recall who, if the individual was ever named), so Giancana's actions may have seemed like comeuppance. Hard to envision a scenario where the family would've approved Giancana getting clipped over Caifano. Caifano was kind of a fuck-up, lost his status in Vegas. Worth noting that of course Giancana was eventually forced to step down for his position and eventually they did clip him. Not that this was over Caifano, but I suspect that Giancana's overall penchant for brash behavior was a factor in him being removed as boss.

[Snakes]

I can't recall the source, but I remember reading that Caifano slept with another member's wife before Giancana slept with his. I've read about several Outfit members who slept with the wives of other members. Chicago was apparently quite a swinging town. Some engaged in sexual activity that would have gotten them killed elsewhere, but as long as they made money no one cared.

My understanding is also that Caifano had slept with a member's wife (don't recall who, if the individual was ever named), so Giancana's actions may have seemed like comeuppance. Hard to envision a scenario where the family would've approved Giancana getting clipped over Caifano. Caifano was kind of a fuck-up, lost his status in Vegas. Worth noting that of course Giancana was eventually forced to step down for his position and eventually they did clip him. Not that this was over Caifano, but I suspect that Giancana's overall penchant for brash behavior was a factor in him being removed as boss.

Caifano being imprisoned so many times probably helped him, too. This was a guy that Lombardo didn't even want carrying a gun on him when he finished one stint in the mid-70s.

[InCamelot]

Saw The Paul Carparelli wiretaps very interesting https://youtu.be/2Ry5yYQwW90

Not familiar with this case but Paul constantly references “Other guys that want results”. Also mentions a guy named “Tony” giving work

Does anyone know who the "Tony" and "Johnny" mentioned here are?

[PolackTony]

Saw The Paul Carparelli wiretaps very interesting https://youtu.be/2Ry5yYQwW90

Not familiar with this case but Paul constantly references “Other guys that want results”. Also mentions a guy named “Tony” giving work

Does anyone know who the "Tony" and "Johnny" mentioned here are?

Me and Johnny Scootch. Carparelli is big time, he has connections in the Bronx and Brooklyn.

Just kidding. Offhand, I’m not sure. Could be a million Tony and Johnnys.

[davidf1989]

How is the boss of the Outfit chosen?

[PolackTony]

How is the boss of the Outfit chosen?

We don’t really know for sure, no member source ever talked about this in any document that we have (so far as I’m aware). FWIW, Bill Roemer once stated in passing that the Chicago family voted their boss in (he was discussing Giancana succeeding Accardo). Without more evidence to support it, I’m hesitant to make a big deal out of this one statement. But it’s certainly possible that Roemer had access to intel that we still don’t know about.

Given that the actual membership of the family was relatively modest even at its peak, it could have been feasible for them to actually hold a vote. I think a likely scenario is that the ruling council selected the boss. Since that body probably became defunct after the 70s, hard to say. This is just my opinion, however. Again, we don’t really know.

[PolackTony]

I can't recall the source, but I remember reading that Caifano slept with another member's wife before Giancana slept with his. I've read about several Outfit members who slept with the wives of other members. Chicago was apparently quite a swinging town. Some engaged in sexual activity that would have gotten them killed elsewhere, but as long as they made money no one cared.

Too many parties in Philly Alderisio's penthouse.

[davidf1989]

How is the boss of the Outfit chosen?

We don’t really know for sure, no member source ever talked about this in any document that we have (so far as I’m aware). FWIW, Bill Roemer once stated in passing that the Chicago family voted their boss in (he was discussing Giancana succeeding Accardo). Without more evidence to support it, I’m hesitant to make a big deal out of this one statement. But it’s certainly possible that Roemer had access to intel that we still don’t know about.

Given that the actual membership of the family was relatively modest even at its peak, it could have been feasible for them to actually hold a vote. I think a likely scenario is that the ruling council selected the boss. Since that body probably became defunct after the 70s, hard to say. This is just my opinion, however. Again, we don’t really know.

Thanks for your opinion and did Giancana and then Aiuppa act as street bosses for Accardo?

Was Mad Sam destefano killed by the Outfit due to his insane behavior? I think that his brother and Spilotro participated in that hit.

[Coloboy]

How is the boss of the Outfit chosen?

We don’t really know for sure, no member source ever talked about this in any document that we have (so far as I’m aware). FWIW, Bill Roemer once stated in passing that the Chicago family voted their boss in (he was discussing Giancana succeeding Accardo). Without more evidence to support it, I’m hesitant to make a big deal out of this one statement. But it’s certainly possible that Roemer had access to intel that we still don’t know about.

Given that the actual membership of the family was relatively modest even at its peak, it could have been feasible for them to actually hold a vote. I think a likely scenario is that the ruling council selected the boss. Since that body probably became defunct after the 70s, hard to say. This is just my opinion, however. Again, we don’t really know.

Thanks for your opinion and did Giancana and then Aiuppa act as street bosses for Accardo?

Was Mad Sam destefano killed by the Outfit due to his insane behavior? I think that his brother and Spilotro participated in that hit.

The general consensus is that individuals like Giancana, Aiuppa, Milwaukee Phil, ran most of the day today activities and operations and made most calls. They generally functioned as the boss would in most other LCN families. However, Ricca,, Accardo, and perhaps later John DiFronzo, occupied a position we have called “chairman of the board”, or sometimes “top boss”. This position was above the plane of day-to-day activities but still held veto power and ultimate control over the organization, including over the day to day boss.. They were the final say. The structure not only provided them with insulation, but also allowed them to step back from being involved every day.

[Snakes]

It should be noted that Giancana, Aiuppa, Carlisi, etc. held the "full" title of boss, meaning they represented the Outfit on the Commission, gave orders to the capos, settled disputes, etc. Ricca, Accardo, and (possibly) DiFronzo may have technically been senior in the organization but it appears that they let the bosses run the Outfit with generally little interference, but were available to consult or weigh in on matters of great importance. The notable exception being when Ricca and Accardo needed to take a more active role in the late sixties and early seventies when there was a leadership vacuum due to arrests and death.

To continue off that last sentence, I'm not sure if there has been a family that was as hard hit by deaths and imprisonments as Chicago was during this time period -- even during the present day. Basically every boss and capo died or was put in prison in the span of just a few years:

Giancana - one year for contempt; fled to Mexico
Battaglia - one year as boss before imprisonment
Cerone - less than a year as acting boss before being indicted and later imprisoned
Daddano - imprisoned
Alderisio - imprisoned and subsequently died
Buccieri -died
Prio - died
LaPorte - died

No wonder that Aiuppa was chosen as the boss -- he was arguably the only senior member left on the streets by the mid-seventies.

[PolackTony]

It should be noted that Giancana, Aiuppa, Carlisi, etc. held the "full" title of boss, meaning they represented the Outfit on the Commission, gave orders to the capos, settled disputes, etc. Ricca, Accardo, and (possibly) DiFronzo may have technically been senior in the organization but it appears that they let the bosses run the Outfit with generally little interference, but were available to consult or weigh in on matters of great importance. The notable exception being when Ricca and Accardo needed to take a more active role in the late sixties and early seventies when there was a leadership vacuum due to arrests and death.

To continue off that last sentence, I'm not sure if there has been a family that was as hard hit by deaths and imprisonments as Chicago was during this time period -- even during the present day. Basically every boss and capo died or was put in prison in the span of just a few years:

Giancana - one year for contempt; fled to Mexico
Battaglia - one year as boss before imprisonment
Cerone - less than a year as acting boss before being indicted and later imprisoned
Daddano - imprisoned
Alderisio - imprisoned and subsequently died
Buccieri -died
Prio - died
LaPorte - died

No wonder that Aiuppa was chosen as the boss -- he was arguably the only senior member left on the streets by the mid-seventies.

It’s an important point: Giancana , Aiuppa, etc were not “front bosses” or “street bosses” or “acting bosses”. In formal terms, they were the rappresentanti and were the official head of the chain of command. It’s easy for people to jump to the Genovese “front boss” thing as a comparison, but it was not what was happening in Chicago.

Agreed on the toll that Chicago took in the late 60s and early 70s. They weathered that storm and righted the ship, just to be hit by another series of major blows in the 80s and 90s. Without taking all of this into consideration, one might look at the latter day Outfit and think “wow, they really fell off”. To me, however, it speaks to the deep entrenchment of the organization that it persisted and still exists today.

[B.]

Great observations Snakes + Tony. That's one of the issues that comes up with Chicago -- we know someone held the role of "rappresentante" as it would have been understood (inter)nationally but that operation of the Family deferred to senior ex-bosses when necessary, sometimes more than one. When mapping out the history of the organization I think it's good to make a distinction between the formal positions and the operational hierarchy for the same reason we would identify Tom DiBella as the official rappresentante of the Colombos in the 1970s-early 1980s even though sources agree guys like the Persicos and Joe Yacovelli had more true power behind the scenes (which led to the error for years that Persico was official boss since the 1970s).

It goes back to what Gentile said, that Toto LoVerde was the rappresentante but Al Capone was more powerful. Then in 1931 Al Capone became rappresentante so power+formality was one at that point.

It's not that there weren't other important factors but if we're identifying the formal mafia hierarchy (which did exist in Chicago, we all agree) I think it's only right to make the distinction between authority/influence/power vs. official title even if it's "academic".

As for elections, we know in other cities they would hold a vote but it was greatly influenced by certain influential figures. Or like the Gotti and Joe Colombo elections, they broke the "no campaigning" rule and basically fixed the vote behind the scenes before holding the election. If Accardo told the Family to vote for Giancana as boss, well you could argue he was both appointed by Accardo and technically elected... not black or white.