Chicago Outfit Places of Origin

[TonyBombassolo]

PolackTony, you seem to have covered everything. I'll add that the 1928 meeting was probably what Nick Gentile called a General Assembly, or something close to it. These usually took place to deal with conflicts between borgatas. Pasqualino Lolordo, if I recall correctly, was the Chicago Mafia boss. Giunta was probably a high ranking member at the time.

So, do you think Gentile was correct then about Capone getting permission from Masseria to whack Lombardo? This conflicts with the fact that Capone attended Lombardo's funeral.

Giuseppe Lolordo (Pasqualino's brother) was Antonio Lombardo's bodyguard, the only person who survived the assassination AFAIK. After Lombardo's death, Pasqualino conveniently got made the head of Unione Siciliana, allegedly this is one of the things that the Statler was to confirm. It's also rumored that Giuseppe was rumored by some to be Lombardo's shooter.

AFAIK Giunta was first mentioned at the Anselmi/Scalise party as a dancing maniac. I never saw him mentioned before that.

[Antiliar]

Yes, I believe Gentile was correct. It doesn't conflict at all. Business is business, and personal is personal. I'm sure many mobsters attended the funerals of the men they killed.

Regarding the bosses, here is a list from memory: Lombardo - Lolordo - Giunta - Aiello - Loverde - Capone (Mafia integrated with the Outfit)

Re the IANU, it wasn't a political organization. It was a fraternal organization that sold insurance. At different times some of its members (or many) may have been imposed to get involved in bootlegging, but that info is rumor and hasn't been verified.

[TonyBombassolo]

So this is the conundrum then. Why would Capone want to clip Lombardo? ...Unless he really was meeting with Mangano as the rumors say? That was one of the original statements I made that you asked my source on. Once I provided it, you state it is not trustworthy, but offer no evidence to support your position.

You asked for a source on Mangano trying to kill Ricca, I cited it. What source are you citing re: the IANU that directly refutes the multiple linked sources I provided?

You claim it is a fraternal insurance organization, why is hardened murderer Giuseppe Aiello so keen to place himself atop of it, even putting himself at loggerheads with Al Capone to achieve that end if that is all it is?

You also claim it was Chicago only, I directly cited links supporting my position that showed people like Costello in NY were involved in it. What sources do you cite and link here that refute that?

I've shown you mine please show me yours.

[Villain]

PolackTony, you seem to have covered everything. I'll add that the 1928 meeting was probably what Nick Gentile called a General Assembly, or something close to it. These usually took place to deal with conflicts between borgatas. Pasqualino Lolordo, if I recall correctly, was the Chicago Mafia boss. Giunta was probably a high ranking member at the time.

So, do you think Gentile was correct then about Capone getting permission from Masseria to whack Lombardo? This conflicts with the fact that Capone attended Lombardo's funeral.

That doesnt mean much since Capone and his guys were at O'Banions funeral too.

Regarding Mangano...Ricca was in jail by the end of 1943, and so i dont think that Mangano was able to reach him. Mangano was in alliance with O'Neglia and they wanted to take over the Outfit since both leaders Ricca and Campagna were in jail, but the Fischettis and Accardo managed to protect the throne. After that the Fischettis entered Lake County while the Taylor St guys entered the Near North Side.

[PolackTony]

It wasn’t a meeting of what was then renamed the IANU. It was a meeting of the national mafia organization.

AFAIK the Chicago Outfit was 100% separate and NOT on equal footing with the Sicilian Mafia until after Castellammarese War and the creation of the commission, so I can understand the position of the Statler meeting being an LCN function, but it doesn't explain the attendees.

Again, the questions that you raise here have already been discussed and debated at length and in depth on this forum.

As a quick point. Capone was inducted into the mafia in 1928 by Masseria with the rank of capodecina. We don’t know for sure who the men answering to him in his crew were, though we have outlined who the primary suspects would be. Some of them may have been inducted under Capone, others (Ricca, Volpe) conceivably could’ve been inducted already under their previous boss Joe Esposito, who was a member of the mafia (this latter point also goes to indicate that — as in other cities — the Chicago mafia was well on its way to absorbing mainlander gangsters int its ranks). So by 1928 at the latest Capone was already on “equal footing” as he was a member of the mafia with the direct backing of the capo dei capi. Any of the non-Italians/non-members working for/with him and/or the members answering to him were formally “associates” of the mafia by this point. Thus by 1928 at the latest the Capone organization was not separate from the mafia.

The question remains as to whether after being inducted Capone remained a member of the Masseria family or if he was subsequently transferred to the Chicago family. We know that by the conclusion of the Cast War Chicago was represented by two factions: a “Greaseball” faction under then-rappresentante LoVerde and an “Americanized” faction under Ricca, suggesting that Capone’s faction was already part of the Chicago family before he was recognized as rappresentante by Maranzano.

I personally try to avoid using the term “Outfit” to refer to the Colosimo-Torrio-Capone organization as I believe it’s an anachronism. So far as I know, there is no reason to believe that this organization called itself “the Outfit”; this was a move by later writers to read a later term back on to a different point in history. Further, “Outfit” does not denote an organization separate from the mafia. “Outfit” was simply a placeholder term popularized among the Midwestern mafia families (parallel to how “Cosa Nostra” was used on the East Coast) to refer to the mafia; it was used in this capacity by families from Pittsburgh to LA.

[TonyBombassolo]

Well, it's my first day on this forum.

First, people acted like I didn't have sources. So, I posted them.
Then when I linked those multiple sites by multiple sources, I am told those sources are wrong.
Then I am told people here apparently have sources no one else has, not listed anywhere else on the entire internet, or in any book.

But you are not actually linking to them. You want me to go and find them? If you are going to refute cited points, typically you the arguer, are required to cite evidence to support said claims, much like I did, repeatedly, in this thread.

While I respect that this may have been debated as nauseam here, I would expect you to at least be able to link to it, given how fresh in your memory it appears to be.

[Villain]

Wtf?!

[TonyBombassolo]

That doesnt mean much since Capone and his guys were at O'Banions funeral too.

Everything I've read indicates the Genna's, with Ioele helping, killed O'Banion. Perhaps a small point that might explain Capone's attendance at O'banion's funeral, but a great counter-point you make.

Assuming I agree with the theory that Capone worked for Masseria, why would Capone get permission to knock down Lombardo at all, if it wasn't over him trying to work with Mangano? Even if Capone took an order to kill Lombardo, why would Masseria issue that order, unless Lombardo was going over to another group of Sicilians...like the Mangano's. There is no other evidence at all other than a rumor of Mangano and Lombardo maybe working against Capone. If the theory is Capone was a Masseria capo in 1928, why wouldn't he, or one of his men have attended the Statler in December of that year? Why wouldn't he have sent Johnny Rio? At the Statler, every Chicago member is Sicilian. Just like the Five Families leaders, including Mangano. It wasn't until April 1931 when Masseria and Maranzano were dead, and Capone was on his way to jail, that the Sicilians vs everyone nonsense ends. Do you think it's coincidence that within a year Luciano and Lansky are arrested meeting with Ricca?

http://www.writersofwrongs.com/2017/04/ ... ed-in.html

Capone and Chicago were always outsiders to LCN until the Commission's creation, because none of their leaders were Sicilian. Even Accardo is Sicilian-American.

[TonyBombassolo]

Sorry meant to say Frank Rio not Johnny

[PolackTony]

Well, it's my first day on this forum.

First, people acted like I didn't have sources. So, I posted them.
Then when I linked those multiple sites by multiple sources, I am told those sources are wrong.
Then I am told people here apparently have sources no one else has, not listed anywhere else on the entire internet, or in any book.

But you are not actually linking to them. You want me to go and find them? If you are going to refute cited points, typically you the arguer, are required to cite evidence to support said claims, much like I did, repeatedly, in this thread.

While I respect that this may have been debated as nauseam here, I would expect you to at least be able to link to it, given how fresh in your memory it appears to be.

Not sure who exactly you are referring to by “people” and “you”. The claim that Capone was inducted into the mafia in 1928 is supported by accounts from Cola Gentile, Joe Bonanno, and August Maniaci. That Chicago was represented by a “greaseball” and an “Americanized” faction is supported by Stefano Magaddino’s wiretapped conversations.

Since you are invoking the etiquette of discourse, I would note that it is incumbent on you — as a newcomer here and an entrant to what is a long-standing, active, and robust series of conversations — to do the due diligence of actually reviewing and engaging with existing topics related to your questions/comments here on the forum. In other (non-mafia-related) fora in which I participate you would have been instantly shouted off the place for posting questions like this on your first day without bothering to actually review and read relevant conversations first. We can’t be expected to have to lay these things out again and again every time someone new pops up and demands attention. Do the work; read the forum topics carefully and then post within the relevant topics. This topic — Italian origins of Chicago members — has now been derailed.

[TonyBombassolo]

Not sure who exactly you are referring to by “people” and “you”.

That would be people refuting my cited statements without citing their own evidence.

The claim that Capone was inducted into the mafia in 1928 is supported by accounts from Cola Gentile, Joe Bonanno, and August Maniaci. That Chicago was represented by a “greaseball” and an “Americanized” faction is supported by Stefano Magaddino’s wiretapped conversations.

Joe Bonanno also said he was kidnapped. Do you believe that? Regarding Gentile's statements, I am literally asking questions relevant to them (such as the Lombardo permission, and why would Capone have even asked for it)

Since you are invoking the etiquette of discourse, I would note that it is incumbent on you — as a newcomer here and an entrant to what is a long-standing, active, and robust series of conversations — to do the due diligence of actually reviewing and engaging with existing topics related to your questions/comments here on the forum.

I've posted my due diligence defending my comments. I have yet to see anything other than a comment supporting your position. Repeatedly I've asked you to link said evidence. Rather than a simple url you have handy, I get a discourse of how "it is incumbent on me" to know what this forum has documented that nowhere else has? Really?

In other (non-mafia-related) fora in which I participate you would have been instantly shouted off the place for posting questions like this on your first day without bothering to actually review and read relevant conversations first. We can’t be expected to have to lay these things out again and again every time someone new pops up and demands attention.

Are you speaking on behalf of the forum? I read the forum rules, I don't see any statement that says "Go read every forum thread we have before you dare to comment and provided citations for your comments". Maybe I missed it.

We can’t be expected to have to lay these things out again and again every time someone new pops up and demands attention.

Yet I am expected to link my evidence (which I did), and when I do, the multiple sources are considered "bad" by someone acting as an information gatekeeper I suspect.

I've provided my questions and my citations. Feel free to respond to them.

[Antiliar]

We did respond to your citations. I pointed out that some of your sources contained misinformation and linked to an article in Informer Journal. PolackTony referred to old discussions we had on these topics. You can also use the search function to find them. He also pointed out that Lawrence Mangano and Vincenzo Mangano weren't related. They had no connection. There's no primary source evidence that Lawrence Mangano tried to kill Ricca. It's possible that he was part of a faction that allegedly tried to get rid of Tony Accardo, but even that is speculative. The idea that there was some war between the Sicilians and non-Sicilians never happened. The Mafia was brought to America by Sicilians and it was those Sicilians who made non-Sicilians into the Cosa Nostra.

Nobody said anything about Al Capone asking permission to kill Lombardo. According to Nick Gentile, Joe Masseria made Capone as a capodecina and he could make ten men under him. Masseria told him that he eliminated Lombardo and Aiello he could become boss of Chicago. So Capone didn't ask, Masseria told him. Parts of this was corroborated by August Maniaci in an FBI file you find if you do a search here or at Mary Ferrell. Joe Bonanno, as PolackTony explained, also corroborates parts. Even Joe Valachi gives some corroboration.

There has been a lot of misinformation about the Unione Siciliana. Some of this I covered in the article that I linked. As I previously stated, Frankie Yale (Ioele) had nothing to do with it. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

So we've responded to everything you wrote, given you links and told you where to go for additional information.

[TonyBombassolo]

We did respond to your citations. I pointed out that some of your sources contained misinformation and linked to an article in Informer Journal.

That article is behind a paywall. I tried to click it.

PolackTony referred to old discussions we had on these topics. You can also use the search function to find them.

I've used it. I don't see the threads you are referencing. Feel free to link them, when asked, as I did, about my sources.

He also pointed out that Lawrence Mangano and Vincenzo Mangano weren't related.

He says there is no evidence they were related. He doesn't say its irrefutable fact they were not. Regardless, both Mangano's are Sicilian, which was my initial point about Capone liking Chicago Heights.

There's no primary source evidence that Lawrence Mangano tried to kill Ricca. It's possible that he was part of a faction that allegedly tried to get rid of Tony Accardo, but even that is speculative.

I linked the site I found evidence on, I agree it is speculative.

The idea that there was some war between the Sicilians and non-Sicilians never happened. The Mafia was brought to America by Sicilians and it was those Sicilians who made non-Sicilians into the Cosa Nostra.

There are so many documented cases of Sicilians and non-Sicilians fighting, I don't know where to even begin. Capone vs Aiello is a perfect example of what happened after all the Genna's were dead. This didn't happen until after the Commission was created, as I posted. The old guard did not allow non-Sicilians. This is why there are only Sicilians at the Statler.

Nobody said anything about Al Capone asking permission to kill Lombardo. According to Nick Gentile, Joe Masseria made Capone as a capodecina and he could make ten men under him. Masseria told him that he eliminated Lombardo and Aiello he could become boss of Chicago. So Capone didn't ask, Masseria told him.

It seems to me a stretch to think that Capone would put himself in this position, just to kill someone he considered friend (Lombardo), and get permission to kill someone he was already happy to kill himself (Aiello). I also find it a stretch to think Sicilian Masseria would make any non-Sicilian a capo. Capone would have been the first in the history of LCN if what you say is true, no?

Parts of this was corroborated by August Maniaci in an FBI file you find if you do a search here or at Mary Ferrell. Joe Bonanno, as PolackTony explained, also corroborates parts. Even Joe Valachi gives some corroboration.

I'll try to find that Maniaci file thanks for the tip Do we believe Valachi and Bonanno on everything they said? Like Buster from Chicago or the fact that Bonnano was kidnapped?

There has been a lot of misinformation about the Unione Siciliana. Some of this I covered in the article that I linked. As I previously stated, Frankie Yale (Ioele) had nothing to do with it. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

I agree with you about the Unione and misinfo and I am open to better sourcing correcting what you claim to be bad info that I have. However, the article you linked is paywalled, and so therefore I cannot access it, unlike the two articles I linked supporting the Ioele info.

So we've responded to everything you wrote, given you links and told you where to go for additional information.

No, you linked one article, which was paywalled. This all became an issue when you asked me to cite my source about Mangano, which I did. Sorry to have derailed this thread and am happy to discuss elsewhere.

[TonyBombassolo]

Parts of this was corroborated by August Maniaci in an FBI file you find if you do a search here or at Mary Ferrell.

I looked on the search site here for this August Maniaci FBI file but found only a similar discussion with similar members about this same subject and Gentile being the only source. Am I searching in the wrong places?

I also checked Mary Ferrell's site it had 51 hits for documents with the name Maniaci in it. I looked through the first ten and don't see any mention of what you are claiming. Do you want to give a bit more detail to this info or maybe a direct link? I'd still love to read it, as I said, I don't have a closed mind on this, but I am not seeing any sources still.

I also went over to the FBI vault itself and I am seeing 0 hits for the name August Maniaci for the FBI

https://vault.fbi.gov/search?Searchable ... st+Maniaci

Would love any more guidance on where this information lives.

[Antiliar]

- The article isn't paywalled like a newspaper, it's a link to the issue of Informer Journal where you can purchase it as a pdf for $5. For someone interested in Chicago, the $5 is a small investment and it helps keep the journal alive.

- The two Manganos being Sicilian doesn't prove anything. It's like saying because I live in California that there must be a connection to someone else with my surname who lives in my state.

- PolackTony went be evidence. There's no evidence of them being related as related is commonly understood. Of course someone can trace their lineages back to Charlemagne and find a relationship. If that's the case then I'm related too, along with most of Europe. So maybe the two Manganos had a common ancestor 300 or 500 or 1000 years ago, those connections are so distant that they're insignificant.

- In the Mafia/Cosa Nostra friends kill friends all the time. Go watch any episode of Sammy Gravano's podcast.

- Nick Gentile also indicated that Diamond Joe Esposito was a made member under Mike Merlo, the Sicilian Mafia boss of Chicago from 1921 to 1924. Vito Genovese and Frankie Uale were made members under Masseria, and Genovese was from Ricigliano near Naples and Uale was from Longobucco in Cosenza. When Vincenzo Mangano became boss of what later became the Gambino Family he chose Albert Anastasia as his underboss. This was in 1931 and strongly suggests he had a been a made member, probably a capodecina, in the 1920s. Eugene Ubriaco was a non-Sicilian who could have been a made member in the mid-1910s. So Al Capone was not the first.

- The questions about Bonanno's kidnapping and Buster are irrelevant. Even if we dismiss those it doesn't mean we throw out the baby with the bathwater. People reflecting on events from 30 to 50 years ago may make some mistakes, but it doesn't follow that everything they said was wrong. So it can't be said that I'm dodging your questions, (A) yes, I can accept that Bonanno was initially kidnapped by his cousin, however he wasn't kidnapped for long and chose to hide out on his own after that; (B) Buster from Chicago was real, he was Sebastiano Domingo. David Critchley wrote a piece on him: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _1930-1931

- Here's a link to a previous discussion on this topic. It includes documents that you can download: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6247

- Here's another related topic. I suggest that you read these page by page: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=5917

- https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... camorrista (Maniaci source)