In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[Angelo Santino]

The Mafia is a CRIMINAL secret society and a TERRORIST type of brotherhood. Crime is not "just another tool in their bag" but instead its the ONLY tool. They have ranks, protocols and rules so the high level members can isolate themselves from the illegal activities and also to protect their illegal income, and also to have total control over the lower level members under the threat of death. All members engage in crime, not just some and their legit enterprises serve for laundering illegal income. Theres not much difference between a "Ted Bundy" and a "Mad Sam" type of murder.

We previously said that someone is mixing stuff with the masonic organizations which also have their ranks and rules but they are older than the Mafia and crime isnt their first choice.

I'll agree it's a criminal secret society but I disagree that crime is their only tool. There are plenty of examples of them attempting to be legitimate but willing to use crime as a means to get what they want. They aren't criminals for the sake of being so. And yes, there is a difference between a serial killer and a one-off premeditated murder in the eyes of the law. Murder is murder but there are different degrees of it.

You are responding like I'm trying to legitimize the mafia and I'm not. Back on page one, I started this thread to differentiate between mafia ranks and their functions compared to those of other groups. It was other people who wanted to delve into criminality and what it constitutes. And somewhere along the way it got misconceived that I'm trying to say it is not involved in crime in any way when that's never been my assertion.

I consider the mafia to be an evil organization that puts the interests of its own members above those exist outside of it in civil society. But to understand why it has survived for so long, intact and rather unchanged in its operandi from 150 years ago should consider that the glue that binds it is more than criminality alone, it is a subculture and a tradition.

[Villain]

Not one of Lansky’s kids went into crime and I believe they all went to university (perhaps not his eldest who was sick). They wanted to make money so that they could provide for their families and elevate themselves out of the ghettos. That’s not to romanticise, and certainly not to justify, their actions but just to give some background to the general Jewish motivation for going into a life of crime.


The main difference is that these Jewish and Irish gangsters never created "families".
This is very much juxtaposed to the Italians who saw the Mafia as a way of life. They were looking to building empires, vast criminal dynasties that would be taken over by their sons and their sons in turn. This happened time and time again, that the sons of a big mafiosi, followed their father into the world. Magadinno, Bonanno, Gambino, Gotti etc. all brought their sons along to the party. Many Jewish families who immigrated is the early 20th century placed an emphasis on education and becoming professionals while Italian immigrant families placed emphasis on preservation of the familial unit. As a result the Jewish neighborhoods were mostly gone while many Italian neighborhoods remained due to children staying and helping their parents in adulthood due to the centrality of the familial unit in Italian culture (in part due to the fractional and violent region they emigrated from). It seems that the same idea can be applied to crime.

I agree that many US mobsters wanted to get out from the poor areas and didnt want for their kids to get involved in crime but that same thing applies to many Italian Mafiosi who did the same thing. Not so many Chicago Outfit examples of sons following their fathers in crime.

Also, I agree regarding the "families" thing and I already mentioned that the Mafia inherited the traditions of their own motherland. They didnt invent those same traditions and ranks and thats why no1 argues regarding the long time period of staying on the scene, but that still doesnt make CN "more than a criminal organization"....maybe one of the oldest? Lol The yakuza organization is also one of the oldest, with families/clans and ranks, and sons following their fathers in crime.

[Villain]

The Mafia is a CRIMINAL secret society and a TERRORIST type of brotherhood. Crime is not "just another tool in their bag" but instead its the ONLY tool. They have ranks, protocols and rules so the high level members can isolate themselves from the illegal activities and also to protect their illegal income, and also to have total control over the lower level members under the threat of death. All members engage in crime, not just some and their legit enterprises serve for laundering illegal income. Theres not much difference between a "Ted Bundy" and a "Mad Sam" type of murder.

We previously said that someone is mixing stuff with the masonic organizations which also have their ranks and rules but they are older than the Mafia and crime isnt their first choice.

I'll agree it's a criminal secret society but I disagree that crime is their only tool. There are plenty of examples of them attempting to be legitimate but willing to use crime as a means to get what they want. They aren't criminals for the sake of being so. And yes, there is a difference between a serial killer and a one-off premeditated murder in the eyes of the law. Murder is murder but there are different degrees of it.

You are responding like I'm trying to legitimize the mafia and I'm not. Back on page one, I started this thread to differentiate between mafia ranks and their functions compared to those of other groups. It was other people who wanted to delve into criminality and what it constitutes. And somewhere along the way it got misconceived that I'm trying to say it is not involved in crime in any way when that's never been my assertion.

I consider the mafia to be an evil organization that puts the interests of its own members above those exist outside of it in civil society. But to understand why it has survived for so long, intact and rather unchanged in its operandi from 150 years ago should consider that the glue that binds it is more than criminality alone, it is a subculture and a tradition.

There are many subcultures like rastafari, skinheads or bikers or even punks but many of their "members" are legit. Skinheads are a subculture of the working class culture, which lasts for how long? The yakuza is also considered one of those oldest subculture groups which was formed with the help of old Japanese traditions. These subcultures can be criminal or not. The Mafia is a criminal "subculture" because 99% of their activities are criminal and under the threat of death and violence they get what they want. They can become completely legitimate at any time but they dont want to because thats not their goal. Illegal income is their one and only goal.

"Subcultures" like the Mafia and Yakuza simply stole the principals of their "parent" culture and changed them to an extent, so it can fit their criminal image. Theres no such thing as only being a member of the Mafia without doing any criminal activities. Maybe only the retired ones but back in the days, in Chicago even they still received some illegal income because of their previous statuses.

[Villain]

It was Valachi who said something about the oath thing like "You live by the gun and the knife and you die by the gun and the knife" right?

[HairyKnuckles]

I agree with Chris. The Mafia is a subculture, whose members engages in crime. But never have the Mafia been an organization whose only criteria was to commit crime in order to join. The Mafia has had members who were doctors, buisnessmen of all kinds, politicians and even priests etc. Compare that to an ordinary street gang. And it´s not only because the Mafia saw criminal potential in these men but recognized the way these men carried themselves in certain situations. Strong, proud. I would imagine that non criminal members were more common back in the day but there are examples even today. Antonino Bonventre (for example) is said to have never commited a crime in his life, but yet he´s a made member.

It´s hard to grasp, but having members from all walks of life (even non criminals), certainly benefitted the Mafia and contributed to its longevity.

[Villain]

The Mafia has had members who were doctors, buisnessmen of all kinds, politicians and even priests etc.

No doubt about that but many of those same priests were used to carry mob money from one place to another, and many Mafia doctors did illegal stuff like not reporting to the police when a wounded guy is brought to him or execute dozens of illegal abortions for other members. And need to say anything about the Mafia politicians?

[HairyKnuckles]

The Mafia has had members who were doctors, buisnessmen of all kinds, politicians and even priests etc.

No doubt about that but many of those same priests were used to carry mob money from one place to another, and many Mafia doctors did illegal stuff like not reporting to the police when a wounded guy is brought to him or execute dozens of illegal abortions for other members. And need to say anything about the Mafia politicians?

It´s like the question what came first, the chicken or the egg? The Mafia would not have used a law abiding priest to carry mob money. But once the priest is made, he is obligated to fulfill his oath.

[Pogo The Clown]

There are many subcultures like rastafari, skinheads or bikers or even punks but many of their "members" are legit. Skinheads are a subculture of the working class culture, which lasts for how long? The yakuza is also considered one of those oldest subculture groups which was formed with the help of old Japanese traditions. These subcultures can be criminal or not. The Mafia is a criminal "subculture" because 99% of their activities are criminal and under the threat of death and violence they get what they want. They can become completely legitimate at any time but they dont want to because thats not their goal. Illegal income is their one and only goal.

"Subcultures" like the Mafia and Yakuza simply stole the principals of their "parent" culture and changed them to an extent, so it can fit their criminal image. Theres no such thing as only being a member of the Mafia without doing any criminal activities. Maybe only the retired ones but back in the days, in Chicago even they still received some illegal income because of their previous statuses.

I was also going to bring up political/fraternal groups like the KKK and the old American Nazi Party. They used similar ranks, rituals and ceremonies like LCN but as much as they were hated by and as much as they may have wanted to the government never could classify them as criminal organizations like they did LCN. Those groups were legally registered corporations, they legally owned property, they were financed by legal donations and sales and their members were engaged in legal political activity like making speeches, holding rallies and passing out literature. Committing a crime was not a requirement for membership and very often engaging in crime got you expelled from said groups.

[quote=HairyKnuckles post_id=209166 time=<a href="tel:1633796063">1633796063</a> user_id=60]
The Mafia has had members who were doctors, buisnessmen of all kinds, politicians and even priests etc.

No doubt about that but many of those same priests were used to carry mob money from one place to another, and many Mafia doctors did illegal stuff like not reporting to the police when a wounded guy is brought to him or execute dozens of illegal abortions for other members. And need to say anything about the Mafia politicians?
[/quote]


Correct. As I pointed out earlier these guys (which you can probsbly count on two hands out of the thousands of members that ever lived) may not have made their living by way of the rackets but they were engaged in crime by way of aiding other members in their criminal activities. As I said a completely law abiding individual can never be a member. Somewhere along the line they have committed a crime that brought them to the point where they are trusted enough and viewed as useful enough to inducted into the organization.


Pogo

[scagghiuni]

Also, I agree regarding the "families" thing and I already mentioned that the Mafia inherited the traditions of their own motherland. They didnt invent those same traditions and ranks and thats why no1 argues regarding the long time period of staying on the scene, but that still doesnt make CN "more than a criminal organization"....maybe one of the oldest? Lol The yakuza organization is also one of the oldest, with families/clans and ranks, and sons following their fathers in crime.

italian mafia is the oldest criminal group, older than yakuza and triads, at least according to documents, the thing that distinguishes the Italian mafia from other criminal groups is in fact longevity and resilience; it sure copied rituals and ranks from the freemasons, being close to freemasons it also another thing that distinguishes it from other criminal groups

[Wiseguy]

Comparing these other ethnic crime groups to LCN crime families is like comparing apples and oranges.

At the beginning (late 19th century, 1900s and 1910s) the US Mafia was mainly involved in extortion, counterfeiting, murder and legitimate enterprises, meaning they werent sophisticated at all.

Now, during that period the Irish mob already controlled all corruption, gambling and prostitution. The African-American mob owned the policy/numbers racket which also brought millions. The Chinese had their opium dens. These groups were sophisticated.

So during the following decades the US Italian Mafia either kidnapped/took over those same rackets by force, or simply inherited them from their previous mentors/bosses who belonged to a different ethnicity.

Another example is the gasoline tax scam which in fact was started by the Russian mob. So i cannot say that the US CN was/is so innovative and sophisticated. They simply stole or copied already placed rackets by other ethnic groups.

If we're talking rackets, as James B. Jacobs said in reference to the LCN, "No other criminal organization [in the United States] has controlled labor unions, organized employer cartels, operated as a rationalizing force in major industries, and functioned as a bridge between the upperworld and the underworld." It is this capacity that distinguishes the LCN from all other criminal organizations in the U.S.

I agree with Chris. The Mafia is a subculture, whose members engages in crime. But never have the Mafia been an organization whose only criteria was to commit crime in order to join. The Mafia has had members who were doctors, buisnessmen of all kinds, politicians and even priests etc. Compare that to an ordinary street gang. And it´s not only because the Mafia saw criminal potential in these men but recognized the way these men carried themselves in certain situations. Strong, proud. I would imagine that non criminal members were more common back in the day but there are examples even today. Antonino Bonventre (for example) is said to have never commited a crime in his life, but yet he´s a made member.

It´s hard to grasp, but having members from all walks of life (even non criminals), certainly benefitted the Mafia and contributed to its longevity.

Again, what Mafia are you talking about? The Mafia a century ago or the Mafia today?

[Southshore88]

Two generation involvement and interrelated members is not that uncommon. You see the same thing in street gangs and drug cartels. It natural for people to marry other people within their own social circle be they criminal or legit. That is not unique to LCN.


Third and fourth generation membership is really rare. Talking about Philly the only third and fourth generation members are Tory Scaifidi, Joey and Anthony Pungitore and Dom Grande. So 4 out of 40+ current members.


It is even more rare in NY. The Gambinos have the most with the various Gambinos, Inzerillos', the Francos' and and Vinny Corrao.


For the Bonannos you have Vinny and Jerry Asaro, Joseph Grimaldi, Antonino and Jack Bonventre and Anthony DiGregorio if they are related to the others with those names. I forgot if James Galante is third generation or not.


I can't think of any for the Genovese or Colombos and only 1 in the Lucheese family (Nicky Scarfo Jr). Maybe a few in the Colombos if any of the young third generation Persico associates ever got made.


So what maybe 2 dozen or less out of the 700+ members in the 5 families.


Pogo

From Eboli’s article about Barney Bellomo - isn’t it very likely that he is a third generation mafioso? His father was a member of the 116th crew but Eboli researched that his grandfather was likely a member as well and I believed died in federal prison in Missouri. But obviously, Barney’s kids aren’t in the life so looks like he’s the last generation. Also, if he is indeed a 3rd generation mafioso, he’s a very rare example of someone from NYC that is so capable and being a 3rd generation.

[Antiliar]

Here's my two cents. Yes, the Mafia/LCN is a criminal organization. We all agree on that. But it's more than just a criminal organization, and those other features contribute to its longevity. It's a fraternity, a brotherhood. It's a quasi-military organization. It's a business. It's an extended family.

It's also true that not every member is a criminal, at least not in a direct sense. They could be called criminal enablers. Doctors who may never have committed crimes themselves, but treat other members who were wounded while committing crimes. Priests who act as middlemen or hold onto items with no questions asked. Wealthy businessmen who help other members out when needed. Politicians who write lax laws. Of course from another point of view they are part of the larger conspiracy.

[Villain]

If we're talking rackets, as James B. Jacobs said in reference to the LCN, "No other criminal organization [in the United States] has controlled labor unions, organized employer cartels, operated as a rationalizing force in major industries, and functioned as a bridge between the upperworld and the underworld." It is this capacity that distinguishes the LCN from all other criminal organizations in the U.S.

Ever heard about the gambling combine (an underworld commission) in Chicago formed in 1903? It also included Irish, German and African-American bosses who operated since the late 19th century. Not one Mafioso and btw what was the Mafia doing at the time or during the early 1900s? Ever heard about the Grey Wolves? They were the real bridge between the upperworld and underworld in the states, while the US Mafia copied or did the same stuff much later. Maybe later they did it better but they were second place.

[Villain]

There are many subcultures like rastafari, skinheads or bikers or even punks but many of their "members" are legit. Skinheads are a subculture of the working class culture, which lasts for how long? The yakuza is also considered one of those oldest subculture groups which was formed with the help of old Japanese traditions. These subcultures can be criminal or not. The Mafia is a criminal "subculture" because 99% of their activities are criminal and under the threat of death and violence they get what they want. They can become completely legitimate at any time but they dont want to because thats not their goal. Illegal income is their one and only goal.

"Subcultures" like the Mafia and Yakuza simply stole the principals of their "parent" culture and changed them to an extent, so it can fit their criminal image. Theres no such thing as only being a member of the Mafia without doing any criminal activities. Maybe only the retired ones but back in the days, in Chicago even they still received some illegal income because of their previous statuses.

I was also going to bring up political/fraternal groups like the KKK and the old American Nazi Party. They used similar ranks, rituals and ceremonies like LCN but as much as they were hated by and as much as they may have wanted to the government never could classify them as criminal organizations like they did LCN. Those groups were legally registered corporations, they legally owned property, they were financed by legal donations and sales and their members were engaged in legal political activity like making speeches, holding rallies and passing out literature. Committing a crime was not a requirement for membership and very often engaging in crime got you expelled from said groups.

[quote=HairyKnuckles post_id=209166 time=<a href="tel:1633796063">1633796063</a> user_id=60]
The Mafia has had members who were doctors, buisnessmen of all kinds, politicians and even priests etc.

No doubt about that but many of those same priests were used to carry mob money from one place to another, and many Mafia doctors did illegal stuff like not reporting to the police when a wounded guy is brought to him or execute dozens of illegal abortions for other members. And need to say anything about the Mafia politicians?

Correct. As I pointed out earlier these guys (which you can probsbly count on two hands out of the thousands of members that ever lived) may not have made their living by way of the rackets but they were engaged in crime by way of aiding other members in their criminal activities. As I said a completely law abiding individual can never be a member. Somewhere along the line they have committed a crime that brought them to the point where they are trusted enough and viewed as useful enough to inducted into the organization.


Pogo
[/quote]

Thats one helluva example regarding the old US Nazi party. They were hated by almost everyone but they were never labelled as criminal organization by the goverment. Why we cannot see the same thing with CN? The asnwer is obvious. No matter if you are a doctor or a street thug, you have to commit crime for the Mafia and get involved in trouble for them, just so they can trust you and bring you among them. Getting away with murder has nothing to do with being "strong and proud".

[Villain]

Here's my two cents. Yes, the Mafia/LCN is a criminal organization. We all agree on that. But it's more than just a criminal organization, and those other features contribute to its longevity. It's a fraternity, a brotherhood. It's a quasi-military organization. It's a business. It's an extended family.

It's also true that not every member is a criminal, at least not in a direct sense. They could be called criminal enablers. Doctors who may never have committed crimes themselves, but treat other members who were wounded while committing crimes. Priests who act as middlemen or hold onto items with no questions asked. Wealthy businessmen who help other members out when needed. Politicians who write lax laws. Of course from another point of view they are part of the larger conspiracy.

If you act like a middleman, and lets say the boss tells you to go and visit a certain member and tell him to execute the "contract"... than you as a middleman or messenger are part of the conspiracy to commit murder or any other crime. As a human being you have the right to chose between good and wrong. Thats obviously not the case in the Mafia. In the legit world you get fired for not listening to your boss, while in the Mafia you get killed for it.

As for being one of the oldest criminal organizations and thats why its more than just a street gang, I agree on that one.