Chris Christie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:03 pm
Yes, and criminality is an important part in Mafia. But what makes it MORE than a criminal organization is the tradition, kinship, bloodlines, networking and connections. It's a criminal subculture and the ranks manage that subculture, not specific crimes. There is no Hitman Capo, no Finance Capo, etc. People have occupied these roles informally but there is no official capacity. It's similar to the rule that members dont get paid for hits and there are no open contracts.
If this were just a criminal gang that only recruits Italians to commit crime and kick up I would have lost interest a very long time ago.
You are right. Even in 2021 Dominican, Mexican, Russian, Chinese, Albanian, African American, Puerto Rican etc criminal organizations do not demonstrate the established criminal sophistication of traditional La Cosa Nostra (LCN) organisations. There is no single criminal organization in United States structured hierarchically like the traditional LCN. Most of these other criminal organizations are not clearly defined or organised and are instead grouped around a central leader or leaders.
Personally i think that even in 2021 most of these other criminal organizations are not serious competition for what the F.B.I. calls traditional organized crime, the Italian mob in the United States. LCN is definitely still more sophisticated and well-connected than MS13, The Trinitarios, Crips etc which are essentially loose knit collections of small street gangs. A street gang, as the definition implies, runs the street. They have guns, but they're local. Quite terrifying, but nothing compared to the mafia. Even UBN and Latin Kings are brands/umbrellas not a single organization. You can only compare a clique of Latin King to a mafia family which is way bigger. I have never heard any gang clique with hundreds or thousands of associates like the five families. Black and Hispanic gang sets are normally either independent or loosely affiliated with each other, that's why a Italian mafia family still yields more weight than a gang set even though in total number black/hispanic gangsters outnumber mobsters. LCN family crews very very rarely fight each other, unless during a family feud which happened a few times in the Colombos but never happened in Gambino or Genovese families. Your average street gang sets kill each other on a daily basis.
Russian/Albanian/Chinese etc groups do have hierarchies, but the division between them isn’t as formal as for the Mafia. There’s more access to the high ranks than there is with the Mafia, where a soldier may never meet the boss except when he’s initiated. Plus the Mafia structure is pretty much the same everywhere.
Other crime groups have a more democratic structure compared to the Mafia. Even in 2021 the Mafia in United States has a defined hierarchy. It’s a tree-like hierarchy that could be compared to the military or to a corporation.
As I already said in my previous post, guys like Ricca and Gotti didnt care about rules and tradition, meaning they only cared about themselves, and the time difference between them two is huge lol. Again...Ricca once said "better them than us" while reffering to the NY families, which means that the whole brotherhood thing was just a fantasy. Better story is when Ricca "snitched" on the Outfits boss who in turn went to jail while Ricca remained free.
Maybe we should talk about the EU Mafia....and take Toto Riina as an example....
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:25 am
The GDs always had a hierarchy
Not to mention a “Board” of Directors and a “Chairman” of the Board that served to mediate disputes among the various Folks organizations. Though the (most likely apocryphal) story I was always told was that Hoover modeled the structure on the Outfit and the national LCN Commission.
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
This topic is getting more interesting by the minute lol
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:03 pm
Yes, and criminality is an important part in Mafia. But what makes it MORE than a criminal organization is the tradition, kinship, bloodlines, networking and connections. It's a criminal subculture and the ranks manage that subculture, not specific crimes. There is no Hitman Capo, no Finance Capo, etc. People have occupied these roles informally but there is no official capacity. It's similar to the rule that members dont get paid for hits and there are no open contracts.
If this were just a criminal gang that only recruits Italians to commit crime and kick up I would have lost interest a very long time ago.
You are right. Even in 2021 Dominican, Mexican, Russian, Chinese, Albanian, African American, Puerto Rican etc criminal organizations do not demonstrate the established criminal sophistication of traditional La Cosa Nostra (LCN) organisations. There is no single criminal organization in United States structured hierarchically like the traditional LCN. Most of these other criminal organizations are not clearly defined or organised and are instead grouped around a central leader or leaders.
Personally i think that even in 2021 most of these other criminal organizations are not serious competition for what the F.B.I. calls traditional organized crime, the Italian mob in the United States. LCN is definitely still more sophisticated and well-connected than MS13, The Trinitarios, Crips etc which are essentially loose knit collections of small street gangs. A street gang, as the definition implies, runs the street. They have guns, but they're local. Quite terrifying, but nothing compared to the mafia. Even UBN and Latin Kings are brands/umbrellas not a single organization. You can only compare a clique of Latin King to a mafia family which is way bigger. I have never heard any gang clique with hundreds or thousands of associates like the five families. Black and Hispanic gang sets are normally either independent or loosely affiliated with each other, that's why a Italian mafia family still yields more weight than a gang set even though in total number black/hispanic gangsters outnumber mobsters. LCN family crews very very rarely fight each other, unless during a family feud which happened a few times in the Colombos but never happened in Gambino or Genovese families. Your average street gang sets kill each other on a daily basis.
Russian/Albanian/Chinese etc groups do have hierarchies, but the division between them isn’t as formal as for the Mafia. There’s more access to the high ranks than there is with the Mafia, where a soldier may never meet the boss except when he’s initiated. Plus the Mafia structure is pretty much the same everywhere.
Other crime groups have a more democratic structure compared to the Mafia. Even in 2021 the Mafia in United States has a defined hierarchy. It’s a tree-like hierarchy that could be compared to the military or to a corporation.
Chicago gangs have been structured exactly like this (though I was told as a kid that they specifically modeled their structure on the Outfit). Currently, the black gangs have been splintered due to LE pressure and structural changes in the city (e.g. the demolition of the high rise housing projects), but Latino gangs in Chicago remain very much unified organizations with vertical command structures. You have sections (crews) composed of members who answer to their section chief. These section chiefs in turn answer to territorial chiefs who in turn answer to the organizations’ admin (mainly incarcerated). You’re correct that at the NATIONAL level the LKs are a “brand” and not an actual organization. The East Coast LKs are offshoots inspired by the Chicago organization and are not really the same thing. In Chicago, the LKs are very much a unitary, hierarchically structured organization. Same goes for the MLDs, SDs, Spanish Cobras, Two-Six, etc. Further, these are not ephemeral phenomena. The gangs on the streets of Chicago today mostly began in the 50s/60s; many have hundreds, and some have thousands, of members. Street-level soldier members are insulated from the command structure via chain of command. This isn’t to say that these organizations are equivalent to LCN, that’s a different discussion. But one has to be careful when making generalizations on street gangs. Chicago is a different animal.
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:33 am
The Fratiannos, Gravanos, Gottis, Lucianos, Capones were one-offs, the Gambinos and other Mafia aristocratic families were affiliated 100 years ago and likely will be 100 years from now due to their bloodlines, not their criminality.
I'd say it is the other way around. Second generation members are not uncommon but they are very much the exception when it comes to the bulk of the members in a given family. Third and fourth generation members in a family are so rare you can count them on one hand. Most members don't hsve their children follow them into the life.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:03 pm
Yes, and criminality is an important part in Mafia. But what makes it MORE than a criminal organization is the tradition, kinship, bloodlines, networking and connections. It's a criminal subculture and the ranks manage that subculture, not specific crimes. There is no Hitman Capo, no Finance Capo, etc. People have occupied these roles informally but there is no official capacity. It's similar to the rule that members dont get paid for hits and there are no open contracts.
If this were just a criminal gang that only recruits Italians to commit crime and kick up I would have lost interest a very long time ago.
You are right. Even in 2021 Dominican, Mexican, Russian, Chinese, Albanian, African American, Puerto Rican etc criminal organizations do not demonstrate the established criminal sophistication of traditional La Cosa Nostra (LCN) organisations. There is no single criminal organization in United States structured hierarchically like the traditional LCN. Most of these other criminal organizations are not clearly defined or organised and are instead grouped around a central leader or leaders.
Personally i think that even in 2021 most of these other criminal organizations are not serious competition for what the F.B.I. calls traditional organized crime, the Italian mob in the United States. LCN is definitely still more sophisticated and well-connected than MS13, The Trinitarios, Crips etc which are essentially loose knit collections of small street gangs. A street gang, as the definition implies, runs the street. They have guns, but they're local. Quite terrifying, but nothing compared to the mafia. Even UBN and Latin Kings are brands/umbrellas not a single organization. You can only compare a clique of Latin King to a mafia family which is way bigger. I have never heard any gang clique with hundreds or thousands of associates like the five families. Black and Hispanic gang sets are normally either independent or loosely affiliated with each other, that's why a Italian mafia family still yields more weight than a gang set even though in total number black/hispanic gangsters outnumber mobsters. LCN family crews very very rarely fight each other, unless during a family feud which happened a few times in the Colombos but never happened in Gambino or Genovese families. Your average street gang sets kill each other on a daily basis.
Russian/Albanian/Chinese etc groups do have hierarchies, but the division between them isn’t as formal as for the Mafia. There’s more access to the high ranks than there is with the Mafia, where a soldier may never meet the boss except when he’s initiated. Plus the Mafia structure is pretty much the same everywhere.
Other crime groups have a more democratic structure compared to the Mafia. Even in 2021 the Mafia in United States has a defined hierarchy. It’s a tree-like hierarchy that could be compared to the military or to a corporation.
Chicago gangs have been structured exactly like this (though I was told as a kid that they specifically modeled their structure on the Outfit). Currently, the black gangs have been splintered due to LE pressure and structural changes in the city (e.g. the demolition of the high rise housing projects), but Latino gangs in Chicago remain very much unified organizations with vertical command structures. You have sections (crews) composed of members who answer to their section chief. These section chiefs in turn answer to territorial chiefs who in turn answer to the organizations’ admin (mainly incarcerated). You’re correct that at the NATIONAL level the LKs are a “brand” and not an actual organization. The East Coast LKs are offshoots inspired by the Chicago organization and are not really the same thing. In Chicago, the LKs are very much a unitary, hierarchically structured organization. Same goes for the MLDs, SDs, Spanish Cobras, Two-Six, etc. Further, these are not ephemeral phenomena. The gangs on the streets of Chicago today mostly began in the 50s/60s; many have hundreds, and some have thousands, of members. Street-level soldier members are insulated from the command structure via chain of command. This isn’t to say that these organizations are equivalent to LCN, that’s a different discussion. But one has to be careful when making generalizations on street gangs. Chicago is a different animal.
Excellent point, Polack Tony. Even when examining the gangs in Los Angeles - those are loosely affiliated sets under a Crip, Blood or La Eme alliance. In prison the eme gangs stick together but on the street they even fight each other in addition to their maravilla rivals. With their lack of organization - they seem to call each other Y.G. or O.G. based on just time in the gang - that's it. Chicago gangs, in my opinion, don't get the recognition for their organization. Additionally, much like the East Coast LKs, the east coast crip and bloods are all unofficial. They often reference the people and folk nation alliances of chicago when comparing them to crips and bloods - which is apples to oranges.
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:33 am
The Fratiannos, Gravanos, Gottis, Lucianos, Capones were one-offs, the Gambinos and other Mafia aristocratic families were affiliated 100 years ago and likely will be 100 years from now due to their bloodlines, not their criminality.
I'd say it is the other way around. Second generation members are not uncommon but they are very much the exception when it comes to the bulk of the members in a given family. Third and fourth generation members in a family are so rare you can count them on one hand. Most members don't hsve their children follow them into the life.
Pogo
No, it's really not. You don't hear about them because they don't have to prove themselves and hence are just names on a list. Even if you go to a small family like Philly and do genealogical research of who's who today you'd be surprised how interrelated they are. It's a natural thing but it's a trait that you see. Third and Fourth gen aren't rare, especially in NYC. It may not be direct grandfather, father, son but there are blood families with ongoing multigenerational involvement through uncles or cousins. I'll ask DiLeonardo how he thinks its split up between connected families and new comers, that would be a good question to ask.
What interesting about it is that these aristocratic members aren't as criminally active as those who weren't connected before joining up. They, in a way, inherited their position while those without connections had to demonstrate that they could hold it. Which explains the sour grapes between both "factions." Bonanno saw Valachi is a low ranking nobody, Gravano regarded Tommy Gambino as a nothing. There's reasons for that- on one hand you have an aristocratic faction that sees their thing as a tradition, on the other side you see stone gangsters who view regard the aristocrats as do-nothings.
Two generation involvement and interrelated members is not that uncommon. You see the same thing in street gangs and drug cartels. It natural for people to marry other people within their own social circle be they criminal or legit. That is not unique to LCN.
Third and fourth generation membership is really rare. Talking about Philly the only third and fourth generation members are Tory Scaifidi, Joey and Anthony Pungitore and Dom Grande. So 4 out of 40+ current members.
It is even more rare in NY. The Gambinos have the most with the various Gambinos, Inzerillos', the Francos' and and Vinny Corrao.
For the Bonannos you have Vinny and Jerry Asaro, Joseph Grimaldi, Antonino and Jack Bonventre and Anthony DiGregorio if they are related to the others with those names. I forgot if James Galante is third generation or not.
I can't think of any for the Genovese or Colombos and only 1 in the Lucheese family (Nicky Scarfo Jr). Maybe a few in the Colombos if any of the young third generation Persico associates ever got made.
So what maybe 2 dozen or less out of the 700+ members in the 5 families.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:33 pm
Third and fourth generation membership is really rare. Talking about Philly the only third and fourth generation members are Tory Scaifidi, Joey and Anthony Pungitore and Dom Grande. So 4 out of 40+ current members.
On top of that, the Pungitores and Grandes are Calabresi. So while they are part of a deeper Philly Calabrian faction heritage, it’s not like these guys are part of a familial tradition going back to Sicily. That’s not to argue for or against CC’s claim here, just thought it’s an interesting dimension worth pointing out.
In Chicago you also had some multigenerational Calabresi, with the whole interconnected Roti/Spina/Andriacchi/Tenuta/Bertucci/etc. “clan”, hailing from Simbario, Vibo Valentia. While I have no knowledge of a third generation of Chicago members from these interconnected families, they were very successful at infiltrating themselves into city government and the police, a legacy which remains today. It wouldn’t shock me if some of the younger relations have some Outfit ties today, as the lines between formal membership and family intersect so strongly with them.
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
Great thread and what Chris is talking about here is the reason why "ethnic succession in organized crime" was always bullshit. There simply aren't any other ethnic mobs (the Yakuza in Japan are somewhat similar, but they're... in Japan) that can take over the exact same societal role of the American Cosa Nostra because they are just too different. Even if the Five Families were to be effectively destroyed (and I think demographics will do that eventually between now and 2050), their "replacements" will not be 1:1 substitutes. It will just be a matter of criminals, usually specialized in one or two rackets, opportunistically filling the void picking up the pieces and disbanding as readily as they pop up. The fraternal organization whose unique, sometimes quasi-mystical characteristics (like the blood oath, etc., or the oddly respectable outward appearance of some of its members) have made it so weirdly fascinating won't be replaced by something similar. In America, at least, it's an anomalous phenomenon arising from Italian immigration and the desire of those immigrants to move up in the society, drawing on a very peculiar Old World tradition, and quite different from other criminal gangs here, which have been opportunistic moneymaking enterprises.
Ivan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:31 pm
Great thread and what Chris is talking about here is the reason why "ethnic succession in organized crime" was always bullshit. There simply aren't any other ethnic mobs (the Yakuza in Japan are somewhat similar, but they're... in Japan) that can take over the exact same societal role of the American Cosa Nostra because they are just too different. Even if the Five Families were to be effectively destroyed (and I think demographics will do that eventually between now and 2050), their "replacements" will not be 1:1 substitutes. It will just be a matter of criminals, usually specialized in one or two rackets, opportunistically filling the void picking up the pieces and disbanding as readily as they pop up. The fraternal organization whose unique, sometimes quasi-mystical characteristics (like the blood oath, etc., or the oddly respectable outward appearance of some of its members) have made it so weirdly fascinating won't be replaced by something similar. In America, at least, it's an anomalous phenomenon arising from Italian immigration and the desire of those immigrants to move up in the society, drawing on a very peculiar Old World tradition, and quite different from other criminal gangs here, which have been opportunistic moneymaking enterprises.
Its not about how long the CN organization survived but instead its about being something "more"...i want to know what "more" really means...if "more" means the long survival of the organization, than ok....but if its the other way around, means that we're going to start glorifying these fellas and maybe even feel sorry for them and justify their actions?
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:08 pmThe Irish formed SOME kinda tradition in the POLITICAL sphere...City Hall, Police, Fire Dept,...... like in Illinois with the Daleys and Madigans, and jobs within the system, while the Jewish gangsters gravitated toward finance and law, and high professions in general. Not to sound fucked up or stereotypical, but I believe they never really went " straight", more, they took thier criminality political, in case of the Irish, and corporate for the Jewish.
It's funny to think, but I think this influence is readily apparent when you look at the legacies of the clans that make up the Genovese and Chicago families. Thier kids went into like finance, professions business, ect.....
That's something entirely different. Individuals, some perhaps corrupt, who have joined mainstream society and aren't really operating in behalf of a criminal organization. This has been something we've seen with the unions in different cities, particularly in Chicago, where descendants of mob guys will be a union official but are generally law abiding citizens. Same with Michael Sabitoni in LIUNA Local 271 in Providence, the Capitanos in LIUNA Local 210 in Buffalo, Gerald Pecora Jr. in LIUNA Local 1058 in Pittsburgh, and Anthony Liberatore Jr. in LIUNA Local 860 in Cleveland.
Ivan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:31 pm
Great thread and what Chris is talking about here is the reason why "ethnic succession in organized crime" was always bullshit. There simply aren't any other ethnic mobs (the Yakuza in Japan are somewhat similar, but they're... in Japan) that can take over the exact same societal role of the American Cosa Nostra because they are just too different.
And society itself is just too different. Many of the factors that enabled the rise of the Mafia in the first half of the 20th century don't exist today for other groups to take advantage of.
Even if the Five Families were to be effectively destroyed (and I think demographics will do that eventually between now and 2050), their "replacements" will not be 1:1 substitutes. It will just be a matter of criminals, usually specialized in one or two rackets, opportunistically filling the void picking up the pieces and disbanding as readily as they pop up. The fraternal organization whose unique, sometimes quasi-mystical characteristics (like the blood oath, etc., or the oddly respectable outward appearance of some of its members) have made it so weirdly fascinating won't be replaced by something similar. In America, at least, it's an anomalous phenomenon arising from Italian immigration and the desire of those immigrants to move up in the society, drawing on a very peculiar Old World tradition, and quite different from other criminal gangs here, which have been opportunistic moneymaking enterprises.
While the NY families are in better shape than the predictions 30 years ago (early 1990's), I do agree we will see a big change over the next 30 years. While I don't necessarily think NY LCN families will be gone in 2050, given the "demographic winter" the mob is facing, they'll likely be significantly smaller by then. Perhaps half of their current size. Maybe some merging will take place, something some have theorized, albeit prematurely. By 2050, you will probably be able to count on one hand the number of living mobsters outside the Northeast corridor.
legalizing gambling in NJ has been a jackpot for bookies ( didn’t expect that ) and a bookie in NJ will also likely never get jail time ever again. Does anyone know the last NJ gambling bust ?
legalizing weed in NJ has been a jackpot for crews and now no one will ever see the inside of a jail cell for weed
Oddly the pie is getting bigger for criminals in NJ with no threat of jail time now
The stuff they are pinching wise guys for are pretty pathetic IMO
head count will certainly shrink ( oddly like any USA company today lol ) but I’m not certain the pie shrinks ( as is )
I can’t think of a better time in history to be a wise guy with a package and selling weed in the side. Without bail / lawyer $, it must be Google type profit margins lol . Why even mess around with loan sharking today
