New Orleans and Tampa..

[Moscone65]

Here as In DETROIT

Nice pfp Jeremy, I thought Canadians only knew about that show, I guess since your in Detroit it ain’t far.

[cdc]

Who is looking into LCN in places like Detroit & chicago anymore? I can’t imagine the FBI is allocating any resources to them when you have terrorism and the cartels nowadays.

This isn’t me saying there are active families i these cities just that you’re not going to find something you’re not looking For.

Look at the recent Colombo bust as an example. The LCN connection is by the by really. Anyway just my two cents

[Pogo The Clown]

Who is looking into LCN in places like Detroit & chicago anymore? I can’t imagine the FBI is allocating any resources to them when you have terrorism and the cartels nowadays.

Don't know how much they allocate to them but the FBI still keeps tabs on Chicago. There was an article not too long ago about it.


Pogo

[Grouchy Sinatra]

(When Pete Milano was boss of L.A., he was so weak that other Families basically ignored him and moved in anyways, so even having a hierarchy isn't enough to maintain control.)

Whatever pretense there was for rules went out the window in the Gotti era. Chin's objection was only driven by his own ambition. Broke the rules himself by ordering a bombing of Gotti's car, long a no-no in the states. Then blasted the wrong guy for good score. Gotti's devil's luck was mind numbing. I'm sure his voice box being ripped out and watching his preening grandkids turning his family name into a punchline on cable television was some kind of comeuppance for what he got away with in his teflon days.

Charlie Lucky shit on the LA family long before Peter Milano. Told Dragna not to fuck with the Jew...or else. The accounts of Dragna being upset over having to drop Benny's name to get into posh Hollywood spots is both sad and funny. I know Dragna wasnt a total putz. I follow his grandkid on Facebook and his enthusiasm for mob history matches mine, but my goodness he has an uphill battle trying to change grandad's legacy.

What happened with this Isgro guy? Wasn't he trying to juice a-listers in Beverly Hills, threaten to break some knee caps then got arrested? Lol. What did he think would happen?

Mickey was the only real boss LA ever had, Italian or not. The only true king of the rackets the town ever saw (outside of city hall or the sheriff's station....)

Anyway..regarding Tampa and New Orleans, I'm always thinking how can there not be any activity in NO since Katrina with all the fuckery that's been going on there? I read somewhere that their black population decreased by something like 30% while the white population increased by a similar number? They used the tragedy to displace residents and gentrify the fucking place right under our noses and no media would dare seem to question it. Even The Sopranos had a quick storyline about it. "Dick Cheney for president...of the universe". That's a quote from a fictional career criminal and murderer, btw.

[motorfab]

(When Pete Milano was boss of L.A., he was so weak that other Families basically ignored him and moved in anyways, so even having a hierarchy isn't enough to maintain control.)

Charlie Lucky shit on the LA family long before Peter Milano. Told Dragna not to fuck with the Jew...or else. The accounts of Dragna being upset over having to drop Benny's name to get into posh Hollywood spots is both sad and funny. I know Dragna wasnt a total putz. I follow his grandkid on Facebook and his enthusiasm for mob history matches mine, but my goodness he has an uphill battle trying to change grandad's legacy.

What happened with this Isgro guy? Wasn't he trying to juice a-listers in Beverly Hills, threaten to break some knee caps then got arrested? Lol. What did he think would happen?

Mickey was the only real boss LA ever had, Italian or not. The only true king of the rackets the town ever saw (outside of city hall or the sheriff's station....)

What exactly are you basing yourself on to say that Luciano told Dragna "to no fuck with the jews"? It seems Dragna was on good terms with Siegel (which obviously wasn't the case with Cohen).

While I have a few minimal points of disagreement with J.M. Niotta about the L.A. family, he's right on this point. In any case nothing supports your statements, or you know something that I do not know (and it is possible, I do not have the infused science).

As for Cohen, from my point of view and without minimizing him, his image as a big boss of L.A. comes mostly from the press because the guy was the flashy type.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

As for Cohen, from my point of view and without minimizing him, his image as a big boss of L.A. comes mostly from the press because the guy was the flashy type.

You are what you convince people of. It's the American way. If Cohen could convince the press and the vast majority of historians that he was the boss and Dragna couldn't, that's Dragna's damn problem. What's the matter, was Dragna not able to work the press and the Hollywood jet set? His limited English probably didn't help. Lucky's English was flawless. Came from Sicily just like Dragna so what's Jack's excuse? Could it be thaf he and many of the other black handers just didn't catch on as well as the young turks did? Meaning, he was kind of slow and maybe that's all the more reason to buy into him being Cohen's inferior? The old man Milano from Cleveland retired out to LA. Bought himself a mansion in Beverly Hills while Dragna, "LA's godfather", lived in South Central. Jeez read between the lines man.

[NickleCity]

The evidence of Buffalo's viability is pretty clear cut IMO from recent LE activity/cases being brought in Western NY. The feds have a full-court press on Todaro right now.

SMB

No, the local media in Buffalo has a "full-court press" on Todaro. For as long as it lasts anyway. You read actual statements from the feds, it more or less amounts to a yawn. The distinction, which they've made more than once, between an LCN family and loosely connected individuals committing Mafia-style crimes seems to be a concept continually lost on some people here.

I doubt anyone here, if they're being honest, expects to see Todaro in handcuffs doing the perp-walk any more than I do.

What evidence do you have that The Buffalo News is targeting Todaro?

Do you think their reporters haven’t done their research and do not have reliable sources for what they’ve printed?


Do you think these reporters’ sources are wrong, because what they’ve said does not match your theory and narrative on OC regarding lack of reporting and cases?

While your argument from silence may shed light on whether a crime family is dead or dying, IMHO, it cannot be conclusive. Again, IMHO, the recent lack of silence on the Buffalo crime family in regard to recent cases and stories calls into question the universal viability of the narrative or theory you’ve built regarding lack of cases, reporting, etc.

However, on the other side of the coin, I will recognize sources can be wrong, so the stories The Buffalo News has written could be wrong. But when you balance the idea that sources can and will be wrong along with the number of different sources (some identified and some not) saying mostly the same thing, evidence suggests the family is active and the argument from silence should be dismissed in the case of the Buffalo crime family.

[Wiseguy]

What evidence do you have that The Buffalo News is targeting Todaro?

Do you think their reporters haven’t done their research and do not have reliable sources for what they’ve printed?

You know, as well as I do, the local press has played up the Mafia angle (including connections to Todaro) to the maximum degree.

Do you think these reporters’ sources are wrong, because what they’ve said does not match your theory and narrative on OC regarding lack of reporting and cases?

The theory/narrative they've (and you) floated of a resurgent Buffalo Mafia is wrong. And let's not pretend the opposite is just my theory or narrative. The feds - not to mention the same 20+ years taken as a whole - have said the same thing. Some people here just ignore it or try to explain it away.

While your argument from silence may shed light on whether a crime family is dead or dying, IMHO, it cannot be conclusive. Again, IMHO, the recent lack of silence on the Buffalo crime family in regard to recent cases and stories calls into question the universal viability of the narrative or theory you’ve built regarding lack of cases, reporting, etc.

Hardly. You can look at city after city and see similar patterns. Especially over the long term. Lack of cases, particularly as more time goes by, is a reflection of lack of activity. It's why New York has more cases than Philadelphia, and Philadelphia has more cases than Detroit. It's not rocket science. And the excuses people have come up with for years to explain lack of indictments only works for so long. Otherwise, we might as well assume there could still be active families staying under the radar in Denver and San Jose. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, no matter how much people want to dig up the same false and tired talking points about certain families being more "low key," the feds not watching them, etc.

And this isn't some theory I've built. Instead of trying to prop up a dead family and present it as a viable organization (go back to my Weekend at Bernie's analogy), maybe you should look at these trends across the country over the years to get a better, overall perspective. Buffalo isn't some strange exception to this. That's a concept that some can't (or won't) grasp. What's more likely? That Buffalo has been the one family to bounce back in the 21st century, after 20 years of relatively little; or that the last 20 years have been the same as many other cities and Violi, Hamilton, etc. (more reflective of Canada than the U.S.) and Bongiovanni (and the handful of loosely connected people tied to him) are anomalies? It's not about dismissing anything. It's about looking at them in the proper context.

Bottom line, some people don't want to look at Buffalo in the proper context. A Mafia family making a comeback is much more exciting to them. And I'm the annoying asshole for raining on their parade.

[cavita]

The coelacanth existed 300 million years ago and was thought to be extinct until one was caught off the coast of South Africa in 1938. Since then it's been found they're still in existence hidden deep in the ocean. Perhaps the San Francisco, Madison, New Orleans families and company are like the coelacanth- living a quiet existence and so deeply hidden until one day.....

[Wiseguy]

The coelacanth existed 300 million years ago and was thought to be extinct until one was caught off the coast of South Africa in 1938. Since then it's been found they're still in existence hidden deep in the ocean. Perhaps the San Francisco, Madison, New Orleans families and company are like the coelacanth- living a quiet existence and so deeply hidden until one day.....

Hope springs eternal.

[thesociety 89]

I don't know how any of you can challenge Scott on Detroit, it's just retarded in my view.

[Wiseguy]

I don't know how any of you can challenge Scott on Detroit, it's just retarded in my view.

It's actually rather easy and he's provided the groundwork himself. Started out in 2006 with his annual Detroit charts on the RD forum that became larger and more elaborate with each passing year. Towards the end, there were nearly 60 people on the chart, complete with a full administration (including street boss), at least a couple "counselor emeritus," and 5 or 6 captains/crews. Never mind that such a hierarchical organization hasn't existed in Detroit for some time. And only much later on - after many heated debates, did he admit not everyone on the chart was made.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the membership of the family was reported to be no higher than 30 during the 1996 Gam-Tax case and up to 2001. At least 23 members have died since 2000, and one flipped, and there's been no serious evidence of any ongoing ceremonies. In all probability, what's left in Detroit is literally down to single digits. It's why we've seen relatively little activity for years now. Not because they're so sneaky or because law enforcement (both federal and state) wouldn't devote the resources to it if there was actually a need.

My more charitable side wants to cut Scott some slack. I've said many times I really liked his Leonetti book. I think those years were simply him learning as he was going and gathering what information he could regarding Detroit, presenting it in some way that he thought made sense. But it gave people a false idea about Detroit, and idea that still lingers by the way, and was really no more helpful than the 20 member St. Louis chart salviardi would post on the RD, or the 30 member Milwaukee chart Milwaukee Phil would post.

[Antiliar]

As for Cohen, from my point of view and without minimizing him, his image as a big boss of L.A. comes mostly from the press because the guy was the flashy type.

You are what you convince people of. It's the American way. If Cohen could convince the press and the vast majority of historians that he was the boss and Dragna couldn't, that's Dragna's damn problem. What's the matter, was Dragna not able to work the press and the Hollywood jet set? His limited English probably didn't help. Lucky's English was flawless. Came from Sicily just like Dragna so what's Jack's excuse? Could it be thaf he and many of the other black handers just didn't catch on as well as the young turks did? Meaning, he was kind of slow and maybe that's all the more reason to buy into him being Cohen's inferior? The old man Milano from Cleveland retired out to LA. Bought himself a mansion in Beverly Hills while Dragna, "LA's godfather", lived in South Central. Jeez read between the lines man.

Dragna had no interest in convincing anyone that he was boss of anything. Most bosses preferred to remain low-key to outsiders. He only became known because James Ragen called him the "Al Capone of Los Angeles." As for his English proficiency, we have no idea how strong his accent was, but look at Joe Bonanno. He had a strong accent his entire life. It really depends on how old one was when he arrived. Dragna arrived as a child, but then he and his family returned to Sicily. He joined the Italian army and came back to the U.S. as an adult. His accent would have been fully formed by then. Still, his knowledge of English was very good. How do we know? He testified before the Kefauver Committee in 1950, and he said a lot. Nothing in the record indicates that the Senate had any problems understanding him.

You're right that he didn't live in a mansion. He lived in a middle-class home. Maybe that's all he wanted. Maybe he chose to live a low-key life since the LAPD had been targeting him since the 1930s. They eventually forced him out of L.A. and he moved down to family in San Diego. The main difference between Los Angeles and the New York Families is that New York had a much larger pool of Italian criminals to draw from. Chicago too. The political scene was a lot different too. New York and Chicago were more liberal and Los Angeles was not only conservative, but a lot of its police had Southern roots and didn't care for foreigners. They bent the law towards vigilantism and most of the populace looked the other way. There was a reason the militaristic William H. Parker lasted so long.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Dragna had no interest in convincing anyone that he was boss of anything.

Oh what a crock of shit.

[PolackTony]

As for Cohen, from my point of view and without minimizing him, his image as a big boss of L.A. comes mostly from the press because the guy was the flashy type.

You are what you convince people of. It's the American way. If Cohen could convince the press and the vast majority of historians that he was the boss and Dragna couldn't, that's Dragna's damn problem. What's the matter, was Dragna not able to work the press and the Hollywood jet set? His limited English probably didn't help. Lucky's English was flawless. Came from Sicily just like Dragna so what's Jack's excuse? Could it be thaf he and many of the other black handers just didn't catch on as well as the young turks did? Meaning, he was kind of slow and maybe that's all the more reason to buy into him being Cohen's inferior? The old man Milano from Cleveland retired out to LA. Bought himself a mansion in Beverly Hills while Dragna, "LA's godfather", lived in South Central. Jeez read between the lines man.

Dragna had no interest in convincing anyone that he was boss of anything. Most bosses preferred to remain low-key to outsiders. He only became known because James Ragen called him the "Al Capone of Los Angeles." As for his English proficiency, we have no idea how strong his accent was, but look at Joe Bonanno. He had a strong accent his entire life. It really depends on how old one was when he arrived. Dragna arrived as a child, but then he and his family returned to Sicily. He joined the Italian army and came back to the U.S. as an adult. His accent would have been fully formed by then. Still, his knowledge of English was very good. How do we know? He testified before the Kefauver Committee in 1950, and he said a lot. Nothing in the record indicates that the Senate had any problems understanding him.

You're right that he didn't live in a mansion. He lived in a middle-class home. Maybe that's all he wanted. Maybe he chose to live a low-key life since the LAPD had been targeting him since the 1930s. They eventually forced him out of L.A. and he moved down to family in San Diego. The main difference between Los Angeles and the New York Families is that New York had a much larger pool of Italian criminals to draw from. Chicago too. The political scene was a lot different too. New York and Chicago were more liberal and Los Angeles was not only conservative, but a lot of its police had Southern roots and didn't care for foreigners. They bent the law towards vigilantism and most of the populace looked the other way. There was a reason the militaristic William H. Parker lasted so long.

Carlo Gambino lived in a relatively modest, middle-class house on the lower end of Ocean Pkwy in Brooklyn, rather than a Park Ave penthouse. While Accardo bought his ostentatious mansion in River Forest, he was likely chewed out for this by Ricca and subsequently downsized. Despite his flashy profile, Giancana maintained a typical Chicago-style bungalow in Oak Park. While tasked with overseeing the Vegas skim operation, Joey Lombardo continued to live in the same working-class six-flat apartment building in the Grand Ave “badlands” that his wife’s family moved into after arriving from Italy and drove a Dodge. And while he was a multi-millionaire with significant direct and indirect business interests, Johnny DiFronzo lived in an apartment in Elmwood Park. And these were in cities where the mafia wielded immense power, and where there were many affluent and successful Italian businessmen and high profile public officials, unlike Anglo-dominated LA.

Plenty of powerful LCN figures weren’t even living like Tony Soprano, let alone in the Corleone family compound.