General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[SolarSolano]

Anyone know if this is Pappa Joe Tocco? I grabbed this a while back from an excellent blog about the Bolles murder.

[Villain]

Ive mentioned this a couple of times but here it goes again...when the boss of Joliet, Will County and the Outfits crew in AZ, Francis Curry died in 1970, his coin operations were inherited by his son but the Joliet and Will County areas fell under the jurisdiction of Armand D'Andrea. On top of that, he also controlled one of the Outfit's crews in AZ and owned huge real estate property in that same state. My point is that during that time D'Andrea might've been one of LaPorte's/Pilotto's capos or at least a crew boss, mainly because he had few made guys under his rule....

Was Armand the older brother of Chicago HEights soldier Nick D'Andrea whose murder was part of Family Secrets? I believe Mario D'Andrea another brother was killed by drug police. Interesting to see Chicago Heights guys dominating Tuscon - Phoenix - I can't think of another Outfit crew that had an out of state operation running with so many former Chicago guys there beyond Spilotro's Vegas/Grand Ave splinter crew.

Yup, Armand was their older brother.

[Villain]

Anyone know if this is Pappa Joe Tocco? I grabbed this a while back from an excellent blog about the Bolles murder.

This is Joe Tocco...

[SolarSolano]

Thanks I figured I had that labeled wrong. Not much resemblance between Albert and Joe Tocco. Both died in jail as well - ruthless guys I've always wondered if their father or uncles worked for LaPorte or whether they had some family connection into the Outfit.

[SolarSolano]

Ive mentioned this a couple of times but here it goes again...when the boss of Joliet, Will County and the Outfits crew in AZ, Francis Curry died in 1970, his coin operations were inherited by his son but the Joliet and Will County areas fell under the jurisdiction of Armand D'Andrea. On top of that, he also controlled one of the Outfit's crews in AZ and owned huge real estate property in that same state. My point is that during that time D'Andrea might've been one of LaPorte's/Pilotto's capos or at least a crew boss, mainly because he had few made guys under his rule....

Was Armand the older brother of Chicago HEights soldier Nick D'Andrea whose murder was part of Family Secrets? I believe Mario D'Andrea another brother was killed by drug police. Interesting to see Chicago Heights guys dominating Tuscon - Phoenix - I can't think of another Outfit crew that had an out of state operation running with so many former Chicago guys there beyond Spilotro's Vegas/Grand Ave splinter crew.

Yup, Armand was their older brother.

What happened to Armand did he go to prison or retire?

[Villain]

Ive mentioned this a couple of times but here it goes again...when the boss of Joliet, Will County and the Outfits crew in AZ, Francis Curry died in 1970, his coin operations were inherited by his son but the Joliet and Will County areas fell under the jurisdiction of Armand D'Andrea. On top of that, he also controlled one of the Outfit's crews in AZ and owned huge real estate property in that same state. My point is that during that time D'Andrea might've been one of LaPorte's/Pilotto's capos or at least a crew boss, mainly because he had few made guys under his rule....

Was Armand the older brother of Chicago HEights soldier Nick D'Andrea whose murder was part of Family Secrets? I believe Mario D'Andrea another brother was killed by drug police. Interesting to see Chicago Heights guys dominating Tuscon - Phoenix - I can't think of another Outfit crew that had an out of state operation running with so many former Chicago guys there beyond Spilotro's Vegas/Grand Ave splinter crew.

Yup, Armand was their older brother.

What happened to Armand did he go to prison or retire?

Nope but instead he died sometime around the late 70s or early 80s, i dont really remember...btw this is Armand...

[Patrickgold]

I saw this article on Facebook. Interesting that they said the Outfit was going to move into Milwaukee and that at the meeting a Milwaukee Family associate was present. Would love to know who that was. First page starts at the bottom.

[PolackTony]

There was that 60s wiretap of Tommy Eboli and Miranda, where they stated that Chicago had only like 50 made guys.

Do you have a link to that or know where I can find it?

This would fit my belief that the Chicago family was more of a mid-sized family by US membership standards, but like the traditional mafia each member was essentially a leader in his own right, contributing to some of the confusion over structure given that made membership in Chicago would mean overseeing significant criminal operations. In other US families of comparable size, membership still meant leadership but more in terms of organizational representation and "honor" than control over operations and a vast network of criminal associates like Chicago.

The Jewish informant DeRose, who was knowledgeable on organizational matters, felt the family had 150 members, which sounds reasonable to me, too, but Eboli and Miranda's word would go much farther even if it was a general estimate.

As we learn more, it appears the family membership sizes didn't drop off quite as sharply as we once thought they did, exceptions aside. Some US families like St. Louis, Dallas, Tampa, and NO simply didn't induct enough members over many decades to preserve a stable membership (staying close to the Sicilian village model they came from) but I have a sense that cities like Chicago and Detroit preserved mid-sized membership numbers, though they used membership to different ends.

I've been looking for this doc for a month, but I was barking up the wrong tree. It wasn't with Eboli, rather a meeting of a number of high-profile Genovese guys in Newark 1962 (there were some other wiretaps around the same time where Eboli was with Patsy Ryan and Mike Genovese [not Miranda] and Chicago/Giancana came up several times, of course).

table1.JPG

"Ray" is Gyp DeCarlo, "Louis" is LaRasso, "Swat" is Dominick Ciaffone (is it possible that the "Benny" LNU in attendance was Phil Lombardo?):

table2.JPG

On the following page, Ciaffone seems to be adding that Chicago only made guys every 10-15 years. Also, anyone know who this "Tato" in Chicago they're talking about might have been? That he apparently wanted to make some guy named Rocky but then died:

table3.JPG

Another point is that these Genovese guys were well aware that Chicago was set up such that made guys were entitled to receive a piece of the family profits (paid as a salary -- or perhaps more appropriately a "dividend payment", if made guys were seen more as "shareholders" of the family enterprise. Whereas apparently associates were entitled to u'gottz). We have had Chicago CIs make this claim, so it's interesting to see another family mention it as well.

[B.]

Awesome find, brother!

Tato is phonetic, so that could be Toto or Toddo, short for Salvatore.

It's funny because it matches a recent interview I saw with Frank Calabarese Jr. where he says the guys in Chicago stopped dressing like gangsters. Here they say they stopped wearing the typical hats and shoes.

Interesting it's Louis LaRasso on this transcript, as he was the DeCavalcante family's liaison to Chicago and we know he had a close personal relationship with Phil Bacino. While arranging Bacino's son's wedding, LaRasso also contacted local Chicago family figures.

DeCarlo was a well-connected, knowledgeable power for many years so I suspect his estimate of their size is closer to the truth than it is not. Most of the non-NYC families except for maybe Buffalo and Philadelphia were rarely more than 50 members at their peak. Membership was exclusive in the mafia tradition and while Chicago was less traditional in some ways, there was incentive to keep membership small.

What stands out too is they discuss Chicago "making" people the same way they'd discuss any family making someone, stressing that Chicago does it rarely (which it turns out is true for many families throughout the country and especially the midwest). The FBI received info that St. Louis and Detroit rarely made members, same with southern families like New Orleans and Dallas. Doesn't seem Milwaukee made members very often either based on Maniaci's info.

Sounds like this "Rocky Mooney" is an ex-Chicago associate who by this time was associated with the Genovese family. I wonder if someone can figure out who he is -- there can't be too many guys named Rocky who moved from Chicago to NYC and associated with the Genovese family during this time.

[Snakes]

Awesome find, brother!

Tato is phonetic, so that could be Toto or Toddo, short for Salvatore.

It's funny because it matches a recent interview I saw with Frank Calabarese Jr. where he says the guys in Chicago stopped dressing like gangsters. Here they say they stopped wearing the typical hats and shoes.

Interesting it's Louis LaRasso on this transcript, as he was the DeCavalcante family's liaison to Chicago and we know he had a close personal relationship with Phil Bacino. While arranging Bacino's son's wedding, LaRasso also contacted local Chicago family figures.

DeCarlo was a well-connected, knowledgeable power for many years so I suspect his estimate of their size is closer to the truth than it is not. Most of the non-NYC families except for maybe Buffalo and Philadelphia were rarely more than 50 members at their peak. Membership was exclusive in the mafia tradition and while Chicago was less traditional in some ways, there was incentive to keep membership small.

What stands out too is they discuss Chicago "making" people the same way they'd discuss any family making someone, stressing that Chicago does it rarely (which it turns out is true for many families throughout the country and especially the midwest). Sounds like this "Rocky Mooney" is a ex-Chicago associate who by this time was associated with the Genovese family. I wonder if someone can figure out who he is -- there can't be too many guys named Rocky who moved from Chicago to NYC and associated with the Genovese family during this time.

Maybe they combined "Mooney" with "Rocky" in the transcript or misheard. Sam Giancana is the only "Mooney" I know of.

Generoso (Todo) DelDuca was a capo in the Genovese Family who died in the early 60s, so I think "Tato" may be a reference to him.

What is interesting is that Rocky Infelise was purportedly on bad paper with Chicago in the early 1960s over some juice loan debt and spent a considerable amount of time there doing hijackings and allegedly some narcotics deals as well. He was eventually allowed back into Chicago but was the possibility there that he thought about staying in New York as part of the Genoveses? I don't know, but it is interesting to consider as he was there from 1962-63 and returned several times throughout the decade. He also had connections to Florida as he owned property in that state.

[PolackTony]

Awesome find, brother!

Tato is phonetic, so that could be Toto or Toddo, short for Salvatore.

It's funny because it matches a recent interview I saw with Frank Calabarese Jr. where he says the guys in Chicago stopped dressing like gangsters. Here they say they stopped wearing the typical hats and shoes.

Interesting it's Louis LaRasso on this transcript, as he was the DeCavalcante family's liaison to Chicago and we know he had a close personal relationship with Phil Bacino. While arranging Bacino's son's wedding, LaRasso also contacted local Chicago family figures.

DeCarlo was a well-connected, knowledgeable power for many years so I suspect his estimate of their size is closer to the truth than it is not. Most of the non-NYC families except for maybe Buffalo and Philadelphia were rarely more than 50 members at their peak. Membership was exclusive in the mafia tradition and while Chicago was less traditional in some ways, there was incentive to keep membership small.

What stands out too is they discuss Chicago "making" people the same way they'd discuss any family making someone, stressing that Chicago does it rarely (which it turns out is true for many families throughout the country and especially the midwest). The FBI received info that St. Louis and Detroit rarely made members, same with southern families like New Orleans and Dallas. Doesn't seem Milwaukee made members very often either based on Maniaci's info.

Sounds like this "Rocky Mooney" is an ex-Chicago associate who by this time was associated with the Genovese family. I wonder if someone can figure out who he is -- there can't be too many guys named Rocky who moved from Chicago to NYC and associated with the Genovese family during this time.

Wait, maybe it's Rocky Infelise? He had some trouble in the 60s (not sure if it aligns with 1962) and was lamming it in North Jersey.

Can't think of a Salvatore who would be in a position to make a guy in Chicago who died around this time either.

Maybe they combined "Mooney" with "Rocky" in the transcript or misheard. Sam Giancana is the only "Mooney" I know of.

Generoso (Todo) DelDuca was a capo in the Genovese Family who died in 1960, so I think "Tato" may be a reference to him.

What is interesting is that Rocky Infelise was purportedly on bad paper with Chicago in the early 1960s over some juice loan debt and spent a considerable amount of time there doing hijackings and allegedly some narcotics deals as well. He was eventually allowed back into Chicago but was the possibility there that he thought about staying in New York as part of the Genoveses? I don't know, but it is interesting to consider as he was there from 1962-63 and returned several times throughout the decade. He also had connections to Florida as he owned property in that state.

Snakes, just saw your post after I posted mine. I think that the first reference to "Rocky Mooney" may have been an error of some kind, as at the bottom of the page they then refer to a Mooney (who I'd assume was Giancana then) who hung out with a Frankie.

Good call on Todo DelDuca. LaRasso states "they're going to make him" (my assumption being that "they" was Chicago), and then DeCarlo follows that with "Tato" was going to make him. This could be read as Tato being from Chicago, or just two guys talking over each other quickly (and not being kind enough to make it clear to us that they're referring to two different scenarios). Tato at least had a "room" in Chicago. Was DelDuca travelling in Chicago before his death, or did he have significant business or personal connections in Chicago?

[Snakes]

Joe DiVarco also mentioned in the late seventies the books being closed "for years" in Chicago, although how long he meant by that isn't known.

[Snakes]

Awesome find, brother!

Tato is phonetic, so that could be Toto or Toddo, short for Salvatore.

It's funny because it matches a recent interview I saw with Frank Calabarese Jr. where he says the guys in Chicago stopped dressing like gangsters. Here they say they stopped wearing the typical hats and shoes.

Interesting it's Louis LaRasso on this transcript, as he was the DeCavalcante family's liaison to Chicago and we know he had a close personal relationship with Phil Bacino. While arranging Bacino's son's wedding, LaRasso also contacted local Chicago family figures.

DeCarlo was a well-connected, knowledgeable power for many years so I suspect his estimate of their size is closer to the truth than it is not. Most of the non-NYC families except for maybe Buffalo and Philadelphia were rarely more than 50 members at their peak. Membership was exclusive in the mafia tradition and while Chicago was less traditional in some ways, there was incentive to keep membership small.

What stands out too is they discuss Chicago "making" people the same way they'd discuss any family making someone, stressing that Chicago does it rarely (which it turns out is true for many families throughout the country and especially the midwest). The FBI received info that St. Louis and Detroit rarely made members, same with southern families like New Orleans and Dallas. Doesn't seem Milwaukee made members very often either based on Maniaci's info.

Sounds like this "Rocky Mooney" is an ex-Chicago associate who by this time was associated with the Genovese family. I wonder if someone can figure out who he is -- there can't be too many guys named Rocky who moved from Chicago to NYC and associated with the Genovese family during this time.

Wait, maybe it's Rocky Infelise? He had some trouble in the 60s (not sure if it aligns with 1962) and was lamming it in North Jersey.

Can't think of a Salvatore who would be in a position to make a guy in Chicago who died around this time either.

Read my post, he was in New York for more than a year from 1962-63 and returned several times thereafter. Maybe he struck up an association with the Genoveses there, someone wanted to make him but couldn't because the books were closed (but were also apparently closed in Chicago). Del Duca's nickname was "Toddo" and he died in 1960 so maybe it doesn't match up entirely. There was also a Gaetano Marino who was nicknamed Toto/Toddo but I think he died around 1970.

[B.]

You might be onto something with Rocky Infelise. This could suggest he was under consideration to get made by the Genovese family. Would have been an interesting turn of events had he stayed in NJ and become an NY member.

I wonder who the unidentified man is who asks what's stopping them from making "Rocky". It was well-known by virtually everyone in NYC/NJ that the books were closed by this time and the nature of the conversation and the participants indicates he is a made member, so he may be someone visiting from another US family. He knows that Chicago rarely makes people and he is familiar with "Rocky" but from this limited snippet I wouldn't guess he's from Chicago himself.

[PolackTony]

Joe DiVarco also mentioned in the late seventies the books being closed "for years" in Chicago, although how long he meant by that isn't known.

Yes. It's interesting to note at least that the books re-opening in Chicago coincided with their re-opening in New York. I've wondered if part of why past informants didn't recall there being a making ceremony in Chicago in their time had something to do with the books being closed, and thus Chicago just brought in new members with a nod or banquet in those periods.