Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

Im just gullible I guess. me and a lot of intelligent posters....

Call me gullible too.

1 We have a guy on wiretap IDing himself as Underboss.
2 We have the Bonannos recognizing this group as an LCN Family.
3 We have federal investigations and indictments.

I thought it was dead too. When new info came out I changed my thinking. If it comes out further that Violi lied, that the Bonannos were trout fishing in Ontario and the Federal investigators state they were mistaken, I'll say "ok, I guess it is dead." I have no ego in this.

[Clark]

I have long followed the goings-on in Hamilton since it is just down the road from me. That being said, I don't really have an opinion on the strength, hierarchy, viability etc. of the Buffalo family. What I will say is that the thirty made guy number that Violi threw out did always strike me as somewhat plausible. We can already identify a dozen or so, and then you have evidence that suggests membership was offered to someone like Cece Luppino, who doesn’t appear to be a big player outside of who his father was. I don’t know if Violi became the underboss of a bunch of old guys in a retirement home, but if the family was making new members then I think criminally inclined men like the grandsons of Joe Todaro Sr., the son-in-law of a previous made member etc. would all be logical choices for membership.

I also don't want to get into a guessing of possible members, like what we may have seen in the past with some other families on here, but I know for a fact that there are others in Ontario who have not been formally identified. An example is that after Papalia’s murder, Criminal Intelligence Service Canada stated that the new base of power for the Buffalo mob in Ontario was an individual based in Niagara Falls. They didn’t name him in the article, but a few different people have told it to me and, if I am remembering right, Paul Manning also may have posted the same on here. This person comes from a very well-connected family in the region and fits with the idea of these individuals only being legitimate business owners (ie. like Todaro with his pizzeria etc.).

As for all the rest of the debate, hopefully more law enforcement action gives us a better picture soon!

[Wiseguy]

Lmao..... If remember correctly, that report she put out was WAY before it hit the papers and everything came out about the wire and Buffalo. If not LE, where do YOU think she got it. What's YOUR theory on where she got all that? I guess you think she pulled it out her ass, lol

She obviously consulted with law enforcement. She explicitly states it in the report. What I take exception to is you presenting your own theory about how she arrived at her description of Buffalo as fact.

Fair enough on your points far as people believing there is a family. I believe up until 2014 nothing was happening, and then some decision is made to try and rebuild the thing. This isnt an internet fantasy, it's what apparently happened.

There's no evidence that there was ever a "decision to rebuild." That's has simply been a theory floated in the press to explain some recent cases after about two decades of relatively little activity. And people on this forum have been more than happy to indulge in the fantasy.

So my burning question remains why, also why the Bonnano family apparently believes or acknowledged it, why they even NEED IT, but you think its, a lie? A Violi exaggeration? I guess, I mean.....if thats what you think... its possible....

Your burning question has been addressed, oh, at least a half dozen times already in this thread. Why was D'Elia acknowledged even though he was pretty much the last guy standing from the Bufalinos? Why was Milano out in LA acknowledged towards even though there was hardly anyone left? They were following mob formality but that didn't reflect the state of the family in practical terms.

See if they were older members, that's one thing. They seem to have just up and made these guys, were going to make CeCe Luppino too. He was even killed, and he wasn't involved criminally. Someone was taking that family pretty seriously. Why? Now?

Up and made what guys? Name them.

To my eyes, it's the foundation being set for a new regime. Or do you think they were adding on to Montreal? Do you think they were positioning Zummo to be..... like..... the new Sciascia?

I try and withstand the temptation to go too much into speculation and simply stick with the demonstrable facts. However, if I had to offer my own guess, it's this -

* The Buffalo family remains defunct. It has about a dozen living members, most of whom live on the U.S. side of the border and are old and inactive.

* Todaro is, for the most part, a titular boss. He gave his formal approval for Violi to be made, and then made underboss - as well as formal notification to New York - but he is not involved in criminal activity.

* Violi, the Luppinos, the recent murders of the Musitanos and others, are are more a part of the Canadian organized crime scene as a whole than anything going on in Western New York. The latter gets lumped into it more than it should because of geographical proximity and historical ties. Sergi was wrong about Buffalo still not being a formal part of LCN. But in more practical terms, the ones engaging in crime today are more a hybrid, across the U.S.-Canadian border, than a resurrected Buffalo family.

* Violi was made underboss, Rocco Luppino a captain, and Cece offered a button, perhaps to more formalize their positions in the LCN underworld - as they carried on their own criminal activity that actually has relatively little to do with anyone of significance in Buffalo today - but there's no convincing evidence that translated to a regeneration of the family as a whole or that new members started to be made in large numbers. Going by the knows facts regarding clearly declining membership over the last 30 years, the most likely explanation for Violi's "30 guys" comment is that he was simply engaging in hyperbole. It's why not a single other person besides him has been positively identified as a new member.

* The handful of guys recently busted in Buffalo are loosely connected people engaging in Mafia-style crimes.

Maybe you need to take a few days and read through this thread again. We've explained over and over and over again exactly why this doesn't pass the smell test and we don't believe the hype.

If he does he'll witness the knockout you guys got by me, Sonnyblackstein, B., CC and others. You're fighting a lost cause my friend.

I spoke to your wife yesterday and she told me you're not the same man you were 10 pages ago. [emoji6]

Apparently you're more impressed with the Buffalo media's regurgitation of old articles, and the arrest of a strip club owner pushing drugs and underage girls, than I am.

[Snakes]

The "Buffalo LCN Family" is mentioned in the indictment. Interesting in that they describe it as an IOC (International Organized Crime) group, probably because of their associations with Canada.

On or about July 11, 2013, the defendant BONGIOVANNI received an email from a fellow member of law enforcement advising him, in part, that “Masecchia is an associate and possibly made member of the Buffalo LCN family,” an IOC group operating in Buffalo, New York, and elsewhere.

[Wiseguy]

The "Buffalo LCN Family" is mentioned in the indictment. Interesting in that they describe it as an IOC (International Organized Crime) group, probably because of their associations with Canada.

On or about July 11, 2013, the defendant BONGIOVANNI received an email from a fellow member of law enforcement advising him, in part, that “Masecchia is an associate and possibly made member of the Buffalo LCN family,” an IOC group operating in Buffalo, New York, and elsewhere.

And?


According to the filing, the FBI believes “that Vincent Pisciotta is a ‘made member’ of the Kansas City LCN and that Mark Sorrentino is a close associate of that criminal enterprise.”


"William J. D'Elia has been publicly identified as a member of La Cosa Nostra and the boss of the Bufalino Crime Family in Northeastern Pennsylvania."

[Snakes]

The "Buffalo LCN Family" is mentioned in the indictment. Interesting in that they describe it as an IOC (International Organized Crime) group, probably because of their associations with Canada.

On or about July 11, 2013, the defendant BONGIOVANNI received an email from a fellow member of law enforcement advising him, in part, that “Masecchia is an associate and possibly made member of the Buffalo LCN family,” an IOC group operating in Buffalo, New York, and elsewhere.

And?


According to the filing, the FBI believes “that Vincent Pisciotta is a ‘made member’ of the Kansas City LCN and that Mark Sorrentino is a close associate of that criminal enterprise.”


"William J. D'Elia has been publicly identified as a member of La Cosa Nostra and the boss of the Bufalino Crime Family in Northeastern Pennsylvania."

Don't drag me into this, I was merely pointing something out that I found interesting about the indictment. Quit taking everything so personally.

[OcSleeper]

The "Buffalo LCN Family" is mentioned in the indictment. Interesting in that they describe it as an IOC (International Organized Crime) group, probably because of their associations with Canada.

On or about July 11, 2013, the defendant BONGIOVANNI received an email from a fellow member of law enforcement advising him, in part, that “Masecchia is an associate and possibly made member of the Buffalo LCN family,” an IOC group operating in Buffalo, New York, and elsewhere.

Maybe I've missed something and you are right about IOC being "International Organized Crime" but I believe in the indictments they have been using IOC as "Italian Organized Crime".

If you go back a few pages here you'll see that was part of the big arguments about if it was the Buffalo mafia why are they using loose terms like "Italian Organized Crime" instead of outright saying "LCN Buffalo Crime Family".

[Snakes]

The "Buffalo LCN Family" is mentioned in the indictment. Interesting in that they describe it as an IOC (International Organized Crime) group, probably because of their associations with Canada.

On or about July 11, 2013, the defendant BONGIOVANNI received an email from a fellow member of law enforcement advising him, in part, that “Masecchia is an associate and possibly made member of the Buffalo LCN family,” an IOC group operating in Buffalo, New York, and elsewhere.

Maybe I've missed something and you are right about IOC being "International Organized Crime" but I believe in the indictments they have been using IOC as "Italian Organized Crime".

If you go back a few pages here you'll see that was part of the big arguments about if it was the Buffalo mafia why are they using loose terms like "Italian Organized Crime" instead of outright saying "LCN Buffalo Crime Family".

Thanks for that, I stand corrected. It does say "Italian Organized Crime" earlier in the indictment so that was an oversight on my part. I guess this implies that they aren't exactly sure if Bongiovanni was associating with Buffalo LCN or with a separate organization operating outside of that family.

[Lupara]

Apparently you're more impressed with the Buffalo media's regurgitation of old articles, and the arrest of a strip club owner pushing drugs and underage girls, than I am.

Honestly, at this point I couldn't care any less.

[stubbs]

The "Buffalo LCN Family" is mentioned in the indictment. Interesting in that they describe it as an IOC (International Organized Crime) group, probably because of their associations with Canada.

On or about July 11, 2013, the defendant BONGIOVANNI received an email from a fellow member of law enforcement advising him, in part, that “Masecchia is an associate and possibly made member of the Buffalo LCN family,” an IOC group operating in Buffalo, New York, and elsewhere.

Maybe I've missed something and you are right about IOC being "International Organized Crime" but I believe in the indictments they have been using IOC as "Italian Organized Crime".

If you go back a few pages here you'll see that was part of the big arguments about if it was the Buffalo mafia why are they using loose terms like "Italian Organized Crime" instead of outright saying "LCN Buffalo Crime Family".

Thanks for that, I stand corrected. It does say "Italian Organized Crime" earlier in the indictment so that was an oversight on my part. I guess this implies that they aren't exactly sure if Bongiovanni was associating with Buffalo LCN or with a separate organization operating outside of that family.

That’s why I’m a little skeptical. It’s like that massive “East Coast LCN Enterprise” bust from a few years ago. That was more headlines the feds were generating, as opposed to some new criminal group that had developed.

Now obviously, there were specific LCN families involved in that bust, but the language of the indictment was strange.

So, I’m a bit skeptical to read too much into vague claims of “Italian organized crime”. If this is an LCN bust involving made members, it’ll be specifically laid out by the government when they make their case. If it’s not clearly laid out, it’s because there is either no proof of LCN activity or it doesn’t exist.

[B.]

"Italian organized crime" is a weird distinction to make if they're talking about American-born men whose families have lived in North America for three or four generations. That comes across like pointless ethnic targeting unless they're implying a mafia connection -- and the mafia is going to be everyone's intuitive thought when they hear "Italian organized crime" and Occam's razor comes into play. What''s more likely, that there is some new "Italian organized crime" hybrid organization, or that these are simply members or associates of the same Buffalo mafia family that has existed continuously, albeit in smaller fashion now, for the past 100+ years?

We already had that answered for us via Violi. We've already determined who the newer Buffalo-area associates are connected and even related to. The answer is all far simpler than 267 pages would suggest.

[Angelo Santino]

Page 219 of this thread-

And, while maybe not you Christie, if history is any guide, most here won't come back and admit they're wrong about Buffalo making a comeback. Not a single poster on the Detroit issue ever did. As I said, what's going to happen is all this will slowly fade away as the 2017 bust gets further into the past and no big news or indictments occur. And eventually people here will just hope it's forgotten rather than have to own up to their bullshit. Hide and watch.

Not rubbing this in your face but what you said wasn't going to happen is exactly what just happened.



Gerace is the nephew of Joseph A. Todaro, who the FBI has accused of running the Buffalo mob (Todaro and his late father, Joseph E. Todaro, have always denied the charges, which have never been proven in court).

https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/fe ... indictment

[OcSleeper]

So, I’m a bit skeptical to read too much into vague claims of “Italian organized crime”. If this is an LCN bust involving made members, it’ll be specifically laid out by the government when they make their case. If it’s not clearly laid out, it’s because there is either no proof of LCN activity or it doesn’t exist.

Forgive me if this is dumb I'm just trying to look at this from every angle. But something I've been wondering about lately is would it be possible the feds are just playing it close to the vest by labelling it "Italian Organized Crime" instead of "LCN" giving out the perception that they think it's something separate from LCN, that way any connected LCN members think they got off while the feds strengthen the case against them? Possibly building up a RICO case?

[B.]

The made members and associates of the Buffalo family aren't sitting around debating what "Italian organized crime" means. They know exactly what it means and it's the same thing it's always meant.

[CabriniGreen]

Lmao..... If remember correctly, that report she put out was WAY before it hit the papers and everything came out about the wire and Buffalo. If not LE, where do YOU think she got it. What's YOUR theory on where she got all that? I guess you think she pulled it out her ass, lol

She obviously consulted with law enforcement. She explicitly states it in the report. What I take exception to is you presenting your own theory about how she arrived at her description of Buffalo as fact.

Fair enough on your points far as people believing there is a family. I believe up until 2014 nothing was happening, and then some decision is made to try and rebuild the thing. This isnt an internet fantasy, it's what apparently happened.

There's no evidence that there was ever a "decision to rebuild." That's has simply been a theory floated in the press to explain some recent cases after about two decades of relatively little activity. And people on this forum have been more than happy to indulge in the fantasy.

So my burning question remains why, also why the Bonnano family apparently believes or acknowledged it, why they even NEED IT, but you think its, a lie? A Violi exaggeration? I guess, I mean.....if thats what you think... its possible....

Your burning question has been addressed, oh, at least a half dozen times already in this thread. Why was D'Elia acknowledged even though he was pretty much the last guy standing from the Bufalinos? Why was Milano out in LA acknowledged towards even though there was hardly anyone left? They were following mob formality but that didn't reflect the state of the family in practical terms.

See if they were older members, that's one thing. They seem to have just up and made these guys, were going to make CeCe Luppino too. He was even killed, and he wasn't involved criminally. Someone was taking that family pretty seriously. Why? Now?

Up and made what guys? Name them.

To my eyes, it's the foundation being set for a new regime. Or do you think they were adding on to Montreal? Do you think they were positioning Zummo to be..... like..... the new Sciascia?

I try and withstand the temptation to go too much into speculation and simply stick with the demonstrable facts. However, if I had to offer my own guess, it's this -

* The Buffalo family remains defunct. It has about a dozen living members, most of whom live on the U.S. side of the border and are old and inactive.

* Todaro is, for the most part, a titular boss. He gave his formal approval for Violi to be made, and then made underboss - as well as formal notification to New York - but he is not involved in criminal activity.

* Violi, the Luppinos, the recent murders of the Musitanos and others, are are more a part of the Canadian organized crime scene as a whole than anything going on in Western New York. The latter gets lumped into it more than it should because of geographical proximity and historical ties. Sergi was wrong about Buffalo still not being a formal part of LCN. But in more practical terms, the ones engaging in crime today are more a hybrid, across the U.S.-Canadian border, than a resurrected Buffalo family.

* Violi was made underboss, Rocco Luppino a captain, and Cece offered a button, perhaps to more formalize their positions in the LCN underworld - as they carried on their own criminal activity that actually has relatively little to do with anyone of significance in Buffalo today - but there's no convincing evidence that translated to a regeneration of the family as a whole or that new members started to be made in large numbers. Going by the knows facts regarding clearly declining membership over the last 30 years, the most likely explanation for Violi's "30 guys" comment is that he was simply engaging in hyperbole. It's why not a single other person besides him has been positively identified as a new member.

* The handful of guys recently busted in Buffalo are loosely connected people engaging in Mafia-style crimes.

Maybe you need to take a few days and read through this thread again. We've explained over and over and over again exactly why this doesn't pass the smell test and we don't believe the hype.

If he does he'll witness the knockout you guys got by me, Sonnyblackstein, B., CC and others. You're fighting a lost cause my friend.

I spoke to your wife yesterday and she told me you're not the same man you were 10 pages ago. [emoji6]

Apparently you're more impressed with the Buffalo media's regurgitation of old articles, and the arrest of a strip club owner pushing drugs and underage girls, than I am.

You just be on bullshit Wiseguy, lol. I say they up n made these guys, you say what guys? Then turn right around and say they made the Violi bros, like you dont know who the fuck I'm talking about.

Ive said long ago that Buffalo today, might mean Canada. Here you go, now the Violis are part of the CANADIAN OC scene. When I said that before, you counter with, no they are with Buffalo, and the majority of the membership is in the US.

You say the Violis and Cece were made to solidify standing in LCN..... What fuckin standing, theres no FAMILY, right?

I dont have time for this bullshit, believe what you want. You just want to win little bullshit arguements, you dont debate in good faith. For the record, I still believe you are basically correct, nothing WAS happening until 2014. After that, to quote YOU, they made the Violis, tried to make Cece, TO SOLIDIFY THEIR STANDING IN OC!!!