General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Frank]

There is still a real organization and some real capable guys and probably a lot we don't know. But its nowhere near what it was and I think at this point, the Outfit honestly only goes after its own unless there are some exceptional circumstances. Associates are rarely getting killed like they were for crossing them - the last few guys who have been killed are all made guys. From my view, that means the Outfit still has a real structure and is making real money - enough to kill guys for and take those risks. I'd add, all these recent hits since 99 are essentially perfect as in no one was caught and in Zizzo's case, a total disappearance.

We can agree that there's a lot we don't know. The 1999 disappearance of Zizzo and the 2001 slaying of Chiaramonte are a long time ago. Everything changed with Family Secrets, followed by the convictions of Mike Sarno in 2012 and Anthony Calabrese in 2008. Paul Carparelli, who got 3 1/2 years in 2016, wasn't even a made guy. Family Secrets and the Sarno conviction changed everything. Solly D, who some thought was the new boss, has a Facebook account where the advertises his business (which he still runs at 80 years old), and talks about friends and family out in the open, not to mention occasionally making posts about Al Capone. Even mob lawyer Joe Lopez is a member of several Chicago crime Facebook groups. To me, this at least suggests that there isn't much Outfit left, if there is any at all.

You mean 2006 Zizzo disappearance.

[Coloboy]

Despite the general attention due to demographic changes, you can’t deny the impact law enforcement had, especially on the top leaders. Think about it.....

aiuppa/cerone- busted 1986
Carlisi/Difronzo- busted early 9Os
Marcello- busted 2005
Sarno- busted 2009ish?

That’s a hell of a targeted campaign against the folks who most understood to be the bosses. Only one that seemed to avoid an indictment was Montelone, and he died. Who would want to be at the top with a track record line that?

[Patrickgold]

True that a lot of top guys have been hit hard. With that being said, a lot have also stayed out. Difronzo got out on appeal and stayed out until his death, along with brother Pete who was considered top hierarchy. the builder never went to prison and he has long been considered in the top hierarchy. You already mentioned Monteleone. I do wonder if he would have been indicted in Family Secrets if he was alive

[Patrickgold]

Chicago Magazine did an in depth article in 2000 talking about how the Outfit was purposely thinning its ranks and making itself smaller to avoid widespread prosecution. I think they've continued to do it to this day. Just because a city has three million people doesn't mean they have to have hundreds of guys on the streets.

Yes, and the Outfit never needed to make every Sal, Vito, and Rocky even back in the day. There was that 60s wiretap of Tommy Eboli and Miranda, where they stated that Chicago had only like 50 made guys. Even if that was a bit of a lowball, still, Chicago at their height was able to orchestrate a vast criminal empire with only a relative handful of inducted LCN members. It was a set of layers or concentric circles radiating out from the inner circle of power, with a mafia borgata at the center of a complex and far-reaching crime syndicate. Today, with the loss of the unions, the police, the court system, Vegas, the old 1st ward machine, etc., there is no longer any "syndicate" to speak of. What's likely left is a small, greatly truncated network of business partners, associates, workers, a few crooked cops, and some cronied-up officials in the suburbs, surrounding a tight-knit LCN family where only a bare minimum of guys need to actually be made. Basically the admin, capos, a couple of top lieutenants, and a few senior retired/semi-retired guys.

There is still a real organization and some real capable guys and probably a lot we don't know. But its nowhere near what it was and I think at this point, the Outfit honestly only goes after its own unless there are some exceptional circumstances. Associates are rarely getting killed like they were for crossing them - the last few guys who have been killed are all made guys. From my view, that means the Outfit still has a real structure and is making real money - enough to kill guys for and take those risks. I'd add, all these recent hits since 99 are essentially perfect as in no one was caught and in Zizzo's case, a total disappearance.

Agreed, and I'd add that if even a couple of the potential "hits" outlined in another thread are Outfit connected, it further shows that they both still have the teeth to be dangerous and something to protect. I personally would suspect that if they have killed anyone in recent years, it would be guys who were potentially gonna flip. And if/when they have hit someone, it was lights out, no witnesses, etc. Otherwise, I suspect they probably throw a beating on a guy every now and then (a la the Carparelli and Brown thing) for not paying, but otherwise mainly just cut the guy off. Whatever they have left on the streets in gambling and juice is going to be heavily dependent on them maintaining a trusted network of clients and workers, so they can cut a guy off or shelve him instead of resorting to force. If any guys have been whacked, I again strongly suspect it would be guys who actually could spill the beans in a way that could cause enough damage to warrant force.

However, I believe there is still a central chain of command and all “street” rackets are run by associates/underlings to protect the financiers/remaining made guys.

I think last years multiple gambling busts were all outfit backed operations personally, and occurred because Illinois legalized sports gambling and they needed to go after some of the bigger illegal books which were cutting into their profits. I don’t think they were chasing the outfit itself, but the fact that all the bigger rings they busted had outfit associates involved tells me the organization is still making some cash.

In agreement, this is my opinion as well. I suspect that the remaining made members are well-insulated from the workers actually in charge of running the remaining street rackets. These workers probably answer to mid-level associates who in turn answer to a made guy. Even if the guys running these gambling opps flipped, they wouldn't be able to damage what's left of the core organization.

A big question for me is whatever came of Hollingshead's info before he died. I for one suspect that there was quite a bit happening around Grand Ave that we don't know about. Another big gap in understanding is the current state of what had been an apparently long-standing and significant set of ties to mafia organizations in Italy. All of that might be dead and gone today, but it very well might not, and Pete Labalestra is still out there in the Western burbs. I personally think that angle is a big deal in the relatively recent (i.e., last several decades) history of the Outfit that remains very murky and poorly understood.

Good assessment. I think there is definitely a hierarchy but like Cavita said, they have gone underground. This was actually Accardo’s wish before he died or some even say his dying order. There was an article about it that I will try to find. You see Buffalo did the same thing and now the FEDs are investigating them despite saying they were no more 5 years ago.

I must have missed it but when and how did Jeff Hollinshead die? I personally think he was just a low level burglar who probably only dealt with Bobby P and Paulie K. Did he say he had interaction with Vena?

Also, did you guys see that thebokabreeze closed his account? Wonder what happened

[Coloboy]

I have to think if Hollingshead had anything solid on Vena, they would have used it. He must not have been able to get that close to him or his business dealings.

It does sound like all of those other Grand Ave busts involving panozzo, koruluk, chuckle Russell, etc we’re all based on Intel gathered from Hollingshead though

[PolackTony]

True that a lot of top guys have been hit hard. With that being said, a lot have also stayed out. Difronzo got out on appeal and stayed out until his death, along with brother Pete who was considered top hierarchy. the builder never went to prison and he has long been considered in the top hierarchy. You already mentioned Monteleone. I do wonder if he would have been indicted in Family Secrets if he was alive

And don't forget Joey A.

[PolackTony]

Chicago Magazine did an in depth article in 2000 talking about how the Outfit was purposely thinning its ranks and making itself smaller to avoid widespread prosecution. I think they've continued to do it to this day. Just because a city has three million people doesn't mean they have to have hundreds of guys on the streets.

Yes, and the Outfit never needed to make every Sal, Vito, and Rocky even back in the day. There was that 60s wiretap of Tommy Eboli and Miranda, where they stated that Chicago had only like 50 made guys. Even if that was a bit of a lowball, still, Chicago at their height was able to orchestrate a vast criminal empire with only a relative handful of inducted LCN members. It was a set of layers or concentric circles radiating out from the inner circle of power, with a mafia borgata at the center of a complex and far-reaching crime syndicate. Today, with the loss of the unions, the police, the court system, Vegas, the old 1st ward machine, etc., there is no longer any "syndicate" to speak of. What's likely left is a small, greatly truncated network of business partners, associates, workers, a few crooked cops, and some cronied-up officials in the suburbs, surrounding a tight-knit LCN family where only a bare minimum of guys need to actually be made. Basically the admin, capos, a couple of top lieutenants, and a few senior retired/semi-retired guys.

There is still a real organization and some real capable guys and probably a lot we don't know. But its nowhere near what it was and I think at this point, the Outfit honestly only goes after its own unless there are some exceptional circumstances. Associates are rarely getting killed like they were for crossing them - the last few guys who have been killed are all made guys. From my view, that means the Outfit still has a real structure and is making real money - enough to kill guys for and take those risks. I'd add, all these recent hits since 99 are essentially perfect as in no one was caught and in Zizzo's case, a total disappearance.

Agreed, and I'd add that if even a couple of the potential "hits" outlined in another thread are Outfit connected, it further shows that they both still have the teeth to be dangerous and something to protect. I personally would suspect that if they have killed anyone in recent years, it would be guys who were potentially gonna flip. And if/when they have hit someone, it was lights out, no witnesses, etc. Otherwise, I suspect they probably throw a beating on a guy every now and then (a la the Carparelli and Brown thing) for not paying, but otherwise mainly just cut the guy off. Whatever they have left on the streets in gambling and juice is going to be heavily dependent on them maintaining a trusted network of clients and workers, so they can cut a guy off or shelve him instead of resorting to force. If any guys have been whacked, I again strongly suspect it would be guys who actually could spill the beans in a way that could cause enough damage to warrant force.

However, I believe there is still a central chain of command and all “street” rackets are run by associates/underlings to protect the financiers/remaining made guys.

I think last years multiple gambling busts were all outfit backed operations personally, and occurred because Illinois legalized sports gambling and they needed to go after some of the bigger illegal books which were cutting into their profits. I don’t think they were chasing the outfit itself, but the fact that all the bigger rings they busted had outfit associates involved tells me the organization is still making some cash.

In agreement, this is my opinion as well. I suspect that the remaining made members are well-insulated from the workers actually in charge of running the remaining street rackets. These workers probably answer to mid-level associates who in turn answer to a made guy. Even if the guys running these gambling opps flipped, they wouldn't be able to damage what's left of the core organization.

A big question for me is whatever came of Hollingshead's info before he died. I for one suspect that there was quite a bit happening around Grand Ave that we don't know about. Another big gap in understanding is the current state of what had been an apparently long-standing and significant set of ties to mafia organizations in Italy. All of that might be dead and gone today, but it very well might not, and Pete Labalestra is still out there in the Western burbs. I personally think that angle is a big deal in the relatively recent (i.e., last several decades) history of the Outfit that remains very murky and poorly understood.

Good assessment. I think there is definitely a hierarchy but like Cavita said, they have gone underground. This was actually Accardo’s wish before he died or some even say his dying order. There was an article about it that I will try to find. You see Buffalo did the same thing and now the FEDs are investigating them despite saying they were no more 5 years ago.

I must have missed it but when and how did Jeff Hollinshead die? I personally think he was just a low level burglar who probably only dealt with Bobby P and Paulie K. Did he say he had interaction with Vena?

Also, did you guys see that thebokabreeze closed his account? Wonder what happened

I was typing up late and somehow thought Hollingshead had died lol. I agree that Hollingshead probably wasn't able to damage Vena, as I would imagine that there was at least one layer of insulation between him and Vena. But I would imagine that Hollingshead provided some info on Grand Ave activities that hasn't made it out to the public.

He did get Chuckie Russell busted, and my understanding is that Russell was related to Vena either by blood or marriage. Does anyone know for sure if Russell was Italian on his mother's side?

And Boka got shut down by the reddit mods for spazzing out on people. He tried to return under obvious alt accounts and those got shut down too.

[Snakes]

I also get the impression that if they are mainly a gambling/bookmaking organization now and aren't committing violent acts that the FBI are content to just let them wither away and not waste resources, particularly if the current leadership has no intention of making any more guys or expanding the organization. The occasional odd bust here or there but I assume that Cartel and gang activity in Chicago is much more of a concern to the FBI and DEA than a dying LCN family. Sallett was there for what, less than a year before he moved on? Here are his own words:

Sallet said he tried to focus FBI efforts on “enterprise” cases, focusing on the most violent offenders “that are really terrorizing neighborhoods and controlling the violence.”

I'm thinking that Sallet may have thought the Outfit could still be counted among that group (remember his quote when he took the job: "The Chicago Outfit? We haven't forgotten about you") and was ready to put the final nail in their coffin but once he realized how little they had going on he focused more intently on the violent organizations and political corruption.

[SolarSolano]

Is Hollingshead dead? I'm not sure I knew that - I was also expecting more to come out. His girlfriend was discussing the DiFronzos on Facebook.

I was told that John DiFronzo and the Giacalone family in Detroit always got together at the Kentucky Derby. Hollingshead's girlfriend was talking that she went with them one year - I alaways thought that was total bullshit but wonder if she gave any reliable info on those guys.

[PolackTony]

Is Hollingshead dead? I'm not sure I knew that - I was also expecting more to come out. His girlfriend was discussing the DiFronzos on Facebook.

I was told that John DiFronzo and the Giacalone family in Detroit always got together at the Kentucky Derby. Hollingshead's girlfriend was talking that she went with them one year - I alaways thought that was total bullshit but wonder if she gave any reliable info on those guys.

Nah, that was my mistake, I was tired when writing the above. So far as I'm aware Hollingshead is still alive.

I also doubt that Jillian was hanging out at the Kentucky Derby with DiFronzo and the Giacolones. Maybe she just heard rumors about it and was trying to give LE more info than she actually had access to.

[Snakes]

There allegedly surveillance logs which show DiFronzo, Zizzo, Pannozzo, and Hollingshead meeting before Zizzo's death. Quite an odd group when you think about it.

[Frank]

There allegedly surveillance logs which show DiFronzo, Zizzo, Pannozzo, and Hollingshead meeting before Zizzo's death. Quite an odd group when you think about it.

Confirms DiFronzo still involved at that time period. Alot of posters here have him inactive and basically retired from Outfit at thst point

[SolarSolano]

There allegedly surveillance logs which show DiFronzo, Zizzo, Pannozzo, and Hollingshead meeting before Zizzo's death. Quite an odd group when you think about it.

Where was that cited? Indeed that would essentially be three separate crews and would assume Vena would be there. I think there is a lot we still don't know.

I'll also add to this discussion - that I-Team report about Al Tournabene when Chuck Goudie came up to his door and when they videoed Bruno Caruso coming over to drive Tournabene - that was like what, 2007? I remember seeing that and thinking wow these guys are still coming over and picking up the boss like its 1977. I think the Outfit is probably a lot more like NYC in some ways than we think - we just don't ever really hear or learn much about it.

[PolackTony]

This is indeed interesting news if true. I'd assumed that Joey A had taken over for Johnny in any involvement by this point. Panozzo was of course representing Vena. Hollingshead's presence suggests that he may have moved in higher circles than we assume, although he may have only been there as Panozzo's driver or bodyguard of course. But the fact that he was ever present with DiFronzo and LT is something.

[Frank]

True that a lot of top guys have been hit hard. With that being said, a lot have also stayed out. Difronzo got out on appeal and stayed out until his death, along with brother Pete who was considered top hierarchy. the builder never went to prison and he has long been considered in the top hierarchy. You already mentioned Monteleone. I do wonder if he would have been indicted in Family Secrets if he was alive

If you go back to the time of Lombardo being originally indicted for trying to bribe a Senator to when Carlisi is convicted. This is a devastating time period for the Outfit, with a long list of convictions