Pagans in New Jersey

[Lou_Para]

As far as the other total BS that was mentioned: I'm in the Western PA area,and have some insight to the local Pag*ns,i.e Pittsburgh Chapter. One member owns and operates several successful bars, another is a full time salesman at a large Harley dealership, two worked full time heavy equipment and construction jobs. There is a truck driver,a couple tattoo artists,and a retired County maintenance worker. Believe it or not, one patched member is an attorney. So the notion that they can"t or don"t have legit jobs is ridiculous. To be fair, some are criminals who don't work, and have records. Pretty much the same breakdown you would see in any segment of the population.

You’re right ‘Lou’.
Bandidos, HA, Pagans have pretty much the same criminal segment as any segment of society.
These guys are just.... attorney’s! As you say.

Working class eh


Good pitch bud. Except you sorta contradict yourself at the end there. “These guys are legit, not criminals... .......
you harass them even one on one they’ll fuck you up....”

I did concede that some of them were absolute criminals. As to the one on one scenario, it was in response to those who say that without their Colors or fellow members around, these guys were wimps. If someone took a swing at me,I would certainly respond in a physical manner,as I'm sure you or any one on this board would. That doesn't make me a criminal or a legit guy or anything else.

[Lou_Para]

Lou and Johnny, I have to agree , I've gotten to know a couple H.A. Over the years and although not my type of crowd these 1percent clubs are definitely no pussies,are serious and dedicated as it can get to there brothers. They take pride in that life and I highly doubt these guys became affiliated because they were bullied there whole life,and need to be in a club to be tough . Like Lou said go into a bar when you see a Pagan or any other one percenter in there and spit in his face see where that gets you. A lot of these informants were killers themselves and turned to the government for protection because they knew there time was up,and that goes for the mob or any serious gang. Guys aren't only flipping cause they got caught and scared of doing time there's some killers that are ratting cause there scared for themselves and there families. That life is definitely not a joke ,and for sure not being run by some former high school losers who were bullied. Thats a joke

Maybe they're not losers who got bullied in high school—but their need to wear a patch to prove to the world what a hardass they are certainly makes them appear that way.

This is a common misconception that people have and generally it's the people who've never known or partied with any 1%er's. That's not meant in a bad way, it just explains where it comes from. When you are in the hang-around,and later,the Prospect stages, the Club is looking you over. If they suspect that you want the Patch just to show what a bad ass you are,you'll be quickly thrown out. The Club is looking for men who will put the Club first,who will make a contribution to it,and above all will be a good Brother. The Patch doesn't make the man,the man makes the Patch. 1%er's could give a sh*t about what people think. They want to be left alone, party, ride,and live by their own rules.And by the way,if you can make it to the position of a full Patch member,here's some news: You ARE a hardass, whether you are wearing a Cut or pink yoga pants.

[MSFRD]

From an Australian perspective, the bikie, or biker to the U.S world has become enmeshed in the general mainstream underworld of our cities.
Previously, the bikie world was separate, less visible, with their own code and lifestyle we are familiar with. Now it is full of men juiced up on steroids, very flashy and mix in the mainstream criminal milieu. Many don’t or can not ride Harley’s. Many in the large cities of Sydney and Melbourne, and most noticeably in Sydney, are recruited from non-white ethnic backgrounds: Arab and Pacific Islander’s most prominently. Recruitment from the martial arts and kickboxing scenes for muscle has led to a mix of men from vastly different backgrounds and ethnicities, but with one thing in common: violence. And the least they all have in common is to ride the open roads.
Due to this, internal ruptures and fighting is almost the norm now. It is not uncommon for patched members to swap to one or even two different clubs within the space of a few years. The president and sergeant at arms can be a member of one club this year and the leader of another the next. It’s all about drugs, and relationships and brotherhood play a very distant second. Add to the fact many and I mean many don’t even ride bikes, and you have a very unstable, violent and fractious bikie scene these days. It’s unrecognisable from 20-25 years ago; at least in the large cities.

[Lou_Para]

MSFRD, Thanks for the info on the Aussie Bikie scene.
I've always been fascinated by the differences between them and the US Biker world.
BTW, any info on the Finks? Last I heard,many of them Patched over to other 1%er Clubs.
If so,are any members left,or is the Club pretty much disbanded ?
FWIW,I always thought they had the coolest Center Patch of any Club.

[MSFRD]

MSFRD, Thanks for the info on the Aussie Bikie scene.
I've always been fascinated by the differences between them and the US Biker world.
BTW, any info on the Finks? Last I heard,many of them Patched over to other 1%er Clubs.
If so,are any members left,or is the Club pretty much disbanded ?
FWIW,I always thought they had the coolest Center Patch of any Club.

No worries man.

The Finks a few years back I think around 2014-15 patched over to the U.S based Mongols. Finks were founded in Adelaide, South Australia, but were prominent in The states of New South Wales and Queensland. Definitely one of the smaller clubs but very violent and independent.
To affirm what I stated above about the fluidity of membership including prominent leaders, in 2006 in the Queensland city of the Gold Coast, a prominent member of the Fink’s defected to the Hell’s Angels, leading to an incredible fight at a Kickboxing tournament. He was shot amongst others, and there were many knifings and the event which was held at a popular government convention center was left in ruin.
This was probably the first image in a while that broadcast to the public the new-age bikie world. The long hair, unkempt look and jailhouse tattoo looking bloke who liked to ride, had been replaced by clean-shaven, manicured men who spent most of their time in the gym, getting designer tattoos and going to nightclubs. They call them ‘Nike Bikies’. Think designer clothes and sunglasses and fast cars. Basically flashy gangsters than bikies. Many are recruited from kickboxing and martial-arts clubs.
The Fink’s although smaller, but very violent, resisted the push by the Angel’s to patch over and asserted their independence. Flash forward ten years and the Fink’s patch over to the U.S based Mongol’s. The Mongol’s have the long standing feud in California with the Angel’s right? So the resistance to any Angel’s encroachment was pointless.
Some members of the Mongol’s, but a small proportion have gone back to wearing the Fink’s patch, but it is a small minority. I think from what I’ve read they are back in the Gold Coast scene most prominently, where they have always been one of the top two clubs in the last couple decades. Mongol’s are the the group with the most publicity and growth the last few years. The president of the Victorian chapter is the former Bandido Sergeant at arms.
Now, to reiterate what I said about fluidity, the man who shot the Fink’s defector to the Angel’s is now the national-president of the Mongol’s. He was released from a Victorian country jail last month or in July, after a five year bid to media fanfare. Fifteen days later in a Melbourne suburb, he was shot and has fled to Queensland where he is originally from; where he shot the defector to the Angel’s years before.
Now this is the national-president. Internecine warfare amongst bikies is nothing new or unique. But the cultural-change within the bikie world, and the almost constant change in affiliations is new. It is causing a lot of violence, and spilling over into the mainstream criminal world and into the public. Years ago, when I was a child and before my time, the bikie world was insular, nomadic and hard to see. If you lived in the countryside you may have seen a few here or there on their motorcycles or in a country-pub where they would congregate.
I brought this up because from this threads focus on loyalty, brotherhood and the character of the US bikers seem at odds with what has been going on down here. Yes they are violent, no they are not cowards in a gang but they are fractious and unstable criminals whose loyalties switch more often than not. I can’t imagine a US based Angel becoming an Outlaw or a Pagan becoming a Bandido.

[Lou_Para]

MSFRD, Thanks for the info on the Aussie Bikie scene.
I've always been fascinated by the differences between them and the US Biker world.
BTW, any info on the Finks? Last I heard,many of them Patched over to other 1%er Clubs.
If so,are any members left,or is the Club pretty much disbanded ?
FWIW,I always thought they had the coolest Center Patch of any Club.

No worries man.

The Finks a few years back I think around 2014-15 patched over to the U.S based Mongols. Finks were founded in Adelaide, South Australia, but were prominent in The states of New South Wales and Queensland. Definitely one of the smaller clubs but very violent and independent.
To affirm what I stated above about the fluidity of membership including prominent leaders, in 2006 in the Queensland city of the Gold Coast, a prominent member of the Fink’s defected to the Hell’s Angels, leading to an incredible fight at a Kickboxing tournament. He was shot amongst others, and there were many knifings and the event which was held at a popular government convention center was left in ruin.
This was probably the first image in a while that broadcast to the public the new-age bikie world. The long hair, unkempt look and jailhouse tattoo looking bloke who liked to ride, had been replaced by clean-shaven, manicured men who spent most of their time in the gym, getting designer tattoos and going to nightclubs. They call them ‘Nike Bikies’. Think designer clothes and sunglasses and fast cars. Basically flashy gangsters than bikies. Many are recruited from kickboxing and martial-arts clubs.
The Fink’s although smaller, but very violent, resisted the push by the Angel’s to patch over and asserted their independence. Flash forward ten years and the Fink’s patch over to the U.S based Mongol’s. The Mongol’s have the long standing feud in California with the Angel’s right? So the resistance to any Angel’s encroachment was pointless.
Some members of the Mongol’s, but a small proportion have gone back to wearing the Fink’s patch, but it is a small minority. I think from what I’ve read they are back in the Gold Coast scene most prominently, where they have always been one of the top two clubs in the last couple decades. Mongol’s are the the group with the most publicity and growth the last few years. The president of the Victorian chapter is the former Bandido Sergeant at arms.
Now, to reiterate what I said about fluidity, the man who shot the Fink’s defector to the Angel’s is now the national-president of the Mongol’s. He was released from a Victorian country jail last month or in July, after a five year bid to media fanfare. Fifteen days later in a Melbourne suburb, he was shot and has fled to Queensland where he is originally from; where he shot the defector to the Angel’s years before.
Now this is the national-president. Internecine warfare amongst bikies is nothing new or unique. But the cultural-change within the bikie world, and the almost constant change in affiliations is new. It is causing a lot of violence, and spilling over into the mainstream criminal world and into the public. Years ago, when I was a child and before my time, the bikie world was insular, nomadic and hard to see. If you lived in the countryside you may have seen a few here or there on their motorcycles or in a country-pub where they would congregate.
I brought this up because from this threads focus on loyalty, brotherhood and the character of the US bikers seem at odds with what has been going on down here. Yes they are violent, no they are not cowards in a gang but they are fractious and unstable criminals whose loyalties switch more often than not. I can’t imagine a US based Angel becoming an Outlaw or a Pagan becoming a Bandido.

Yes,patching over from a 1%er Club to another is something that is not generally done in the States. There have been some exceptions,but as expected,it always brings a violent response. Once you've earned a Club's Patch, that is the only one you will ever wear. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the so-called "Big 4" got their start here, as did some of the smaller Clubs. A few of the "Graybeards" here actually go back to the founding days of these Clubs. The mutual hatred of these Clubs for each other is practically genetic,and no two Members will tell the same story as to how it started.

[SantoClaus]

There was a patching of OLMC members in Canada to HA at the start of the 2000's. Now there are Outlaws and Hells Angels sharing the same territory in different provinces in Canada, its seems to be too friendly up there, compared to what is being described here.

[MSFRD]

There was a patching of OLMC members in Canada to HA at the start of the 2000's. Now there are Outlaws and Hells Angels sharing the same territory in different provinces in Canada, its seems to be too friendly up there, compared to what is being described here.

Patching over from a small club to one of the larger ones is not uncommon from my readings. Or the smaller club acts as a feeder to the larger clubs. But as I stated, here we have the leaders switching clubs all the time.

[MSFRD]

MSFRD, Thanks for the info on the Aussie Bikie scene.
I've always been fascinated by the differences between them and the US Biker world.
BTW, any info on the Finks? Last I heard,many of them Patched over to other 1%er Clubs.
If so,are any members left,or is the Club pretty much disbanded ?
FWIW,I always thought they had the coolest Center Patch of any Club.

No worries man.

The Finks a few years back I think around 2014-15 patched over to the U.S based Mongols. Finks were founded in Adelaide, South Australia, but were prominent in The states of New South Wales and Queensland. Definitely one of the smaller clubs but very violent and independent.
To affirm what I stated above about the fluidity of membership including prominent leaders, in 2006 in the Queensland city of the Gold Coast, a prominent member of the Fink’s defected to the Hell’s Angels, leading to an incredible fight at a Kickboxing tournament. He was shot amongst others, and there were many knifings and the event which was held at a popular government convention center was left in ruin.
This was probably the first image in a while that broadcast to the public the new-age bikie world. The long hair, unkempt look and jailhouse tattoo looking bloke who liked to ride, had been replaced by clean-shaven, manicured men who spent most of their time in the gym, getting designer tattoos and going to nightclubs. They call them ‘Nike Bikies’. Think designer clothes and sunglasses and fast cars. Basically flashy gangsters than bikies. Many are recruited from kickboxing and martial-arts clubs.
The Fink’s although smaller, but very violent, resisted the push by the Angel’s to patch over and asserted their independence. Flash forward ten years and the Fink’s patch over to the U.S based Mongol’s. The Mongol’s have the long standing feud in California with the Angel’s right? So the resistance to any Angel’s encroachment was pointless.
Some members of the Mongol’s, but a small proportion have gone back to wearing the Fink’s patch, but it is a small minority. I think from what I’ve read they are back in the Gold Coast scene most prominently, where they have always been one of the top two clubs in the last couple decades. Mongol’s are the the group with the most publicity and growth the last few years. The president of the Victorian chapter is the former Bandido Sergeant at arms.
Now, to reiterate what I said about fluidity, the man who shot the Fink’s defector to the Angel’s is now the national-president of the Mongol’s. He was released from a Victorian country jail last month or in July, after a five year bid to media fanfare. Fifteen days later in a Melbourne suburb, he was shot and has fled to Queensland where he is originally from; where he shot the defector to the Angel’s years before.
Now this is the national-president. Internecine warfare amongst bikies is nothing new or unique. But the cultural-change within the bikie world, and the almost constant change in affiliations is new. It is causing a lot of violence, and spilling over into the mainstream criminal world and into the public. Years ago, when I was a child and before my time, the bikie world was insular, nomadic and hard to see. If you lived in the countryside you may have seen a few here or there on their motorcycles or in a country-pub where they would congregate.
I brought this up because from this threads focus on loyalty, brotherhood and the character of the US bikers seem at odds with what has been going on down here. Yes they are violent, no they are not cowards in a gang but they are fractious and unstable criminals whose loyalties switch more often than not. I can’t imagine a US based Angel becoming an Outlaw or a Pagan becoming a Bandido.

Yes,patching over from a 1%er Club to another is something that is not generally done in the States. There have been some exceptions,but as expected,it always brings a violent response. Once you've earned a Club's Patch, that is the only one you will ever wear. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the so-called "Big 4" got their start here, as did some of the smaller Clubs. A few of the "Graybeards" here actually go back to the founding days of these Clubs. The mutual hatred of these Clubs for each other is practically genetic,and no two Members will tell the same story as to how it started.

I can only imagine the violent responses. When I think of that shootout in the casino was it in Vegas or the bloodbath in Texas a few years back when about nine members were shot dead between two clubs, the US bikers really seem to uphold the club values. And many of the members don’t look like they would be out of place in a motorcycle run in 1975.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Milperra massacre

[Philly d]

The problem with bringing RICO cases against the Pag*ns is very simple. They are not a Criminal Organization. To clarify, yes there are members that engage in drug dealing,assault,murder,etc,but these are not ordered or directed by Club leadership or done as a part of being a member. The simple act of wearing a Club patch is not illegal. The Mafia could take a few lessons about layers of insulation and the use of "buffers" from the 1% world. Law enforcement can not provide evidence that Club leadership, at any level ,requires members to commit crimes,or even that they have knowledge of members criminal activity. Mind you,I'm strictly speaking about proving such activity. In the real world,if a member is running an illegal business,he is expected to kick 10% to his local Chapter President which is distributed "up the chain" similar to the OC gangs. The difference is that the Feds can never get enough rats to flip at every level up to the Mother Club. Also the member will never wear the Club Colors while transacting any illegal activity.
Although there are rare exceptions,these guys take Brotherhood so seriously that they will go to prison for long stretches rather than endanger their Brothers and their Club. The real hardcore members would kill someone in front of a Homicide Detective Convention,if it was needed to avenge or protect the Club. As far as "bugging their Clubhouses: 1)they are private property,just like your home. 2) You have to get a warrant from a judge to conduct electronic surveillance. This warrant must outline specific justification,supported by probable cause, or sworn oath for the tap,and is issued for a limited time,typically 30 days,after which a new warrant must be applied for. If nothing has turned up, or there is no new evidence, the extension will be denied.
As far as the other total BS that was mentioned: I'm in the Western PA area,and have some insight to the local Pag*ns,i.e Pittsburgh Chapter. One member owns and operates several successful bars, another is a full time salesman at a large Harley dealership, two worked full time heavy equipment and construction jobs. There is a truck driver,a couple tattoo artists,and a retired County maintenance worker. Believe it or not, one patched member is an attorney. So the notion that they can"t or don"t have legit jobs is ridiculous. To be fair, some are criminals who don't work, and have records. Pretty much the same breakdown you would see in any segment of the population.
One last point: To those who think that these guys are punks or bullies who only joined to have a "gang" back them up,here is an experiment you can try:
Walk up to a member who is alone and not wearing his Colors. Tell him he's a pus*y,and take a swing at him. Have your next of kin post the results of that encounter on this board.

Good post. I know nothing about bikers...so to join do you have to be a tough guy ready to throw hands? Like this attorney is ready to get into the mox ? and i am not talking about self defense where someone spits in his face.

[Wiseguy]

You can read indictments of various OMGS in the U.S. going back years. They're tough and crazy but they're not exactly sophisticated. Often the charges involve wanton violence and weapons violations. Like street gangs, the vast majority of their criminal business involves the lower levels of the drug trade.

[MSFRD]

From my readings and at least pertaining to Australia, the Hell’s Angels are akin to the Genovese in that they are the ‘Rolls Royce’ of the biker clubs.
Internal fighting and public spillover is much more rare. They have been the amongst the first and to the most extent involved in more sophisticated rackets in the security industries and some union involvement in construction. Much better connected to the big players in the mainstream criminal world. They seem to be in their own tier in terms of operations and discipline.
Is this the case in the States?

[Lou_Para]

Philly d:
Good post. I know nothing about bikers...so to join do you have to be a tough guy ready to throw hands? Like this attorney is ready to get into the mox ? and i am not talking about self defense where someone spits in his face.


This is a common misconception that people have and generally it's the people who've never known or partied with any 1%er's. That's not meant in a bad way, it just explains where it comes from. When you are in the hang-around,and later,the Prospect stages, the Club is looking you over. If they suspect that you want the Patch just to show what a bad ass you are,you'll be quickly thrown out. The Club is looking for men who will put the Club first,who will make a contribution to it,and above all will be a good Brother. The Patch doesn't make the man,the man makes the Patch. 1%er's could give a sh*t about what people think. They want to be left alone, party, ride,and live by their own rules.And by the way,if you can make it to the position of a full Patch member,here's some news: You ARE a hardass, whether you are wearing a Cut or pink yoga pants.

As far as the attorney I mentioned,he will go to some functions,and hang out with his Brothers,but his value to the Club is such that it's best to let him keep a low profile. In his case,he prospected,got Patched in, and did everything else that goes with it before he even went to Law school. He will not be put into a position where he may get into anything like a bar fight.It really is a unique circumstance. Very few people in this area,outside of the Club, even know he's a Member.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Because there are almost ZERO professionals who are 1% members.

Sell your bullshit elsewhere Louie.


‘We’re with the Vipers!’