General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Antiliar]

What was Mandell's name originally before he changed it to Mandell?

I think it was "Manning"

Manning? Any connection to Pat Manno AKA Manning or his brothers?

I think Rugirello was killed by Mandell. That’s what I heard. That would have been a grand Ave hit

The article below also incorrectly refers to Vena as the boss of Elmwood Park.

I think "boss of Elmwood Park" is probably accurate. If EP was folded into GA, then it follows that he's the boss of EP.

As I’ve said for years I don’t think ep has existed for some time now maybe 20 years but antillar you would know when did mags say ep was defunct?

It seems that DiFronzo basically made himself unavailable except to a small group of friends and relatives starting in the late 1990s. He didn't say this, but I conclude this, that the guys who still wanted to be active (including Mags and Rudy Fratto) naturally gravitated to the next guy on the totem pole, Joe Andriacchi. You know the story and it correlates with what Fosco wrote (which may not be entirely accurate).

[Pete]

What was Mandell's name originally before he changed it to Mandell?

I think it was "Manning"

Manning? Any connection to Pat Manno AKA Manning or his brothers?

I think Rugirello was killed by Mandell. That’s what I heard. That would have been a grand Ave hit

The article below also incorrectly refers to Vena as the boss of Elmwood Park.

I think "boss of Elmwood Park" is probably accurate. If EP was folded into GA, then it follows that he's the boss of EP.

As I’ve said for years I don’t think ep has existed for some time now maybe 20 years but antillar you would know when did mags say ep was defunct?

It seems that DiFronzo basically made himself unavailable except to a small group of friends and relatives starting in the late 1990s. He didn't say this, but I conclude this, that the guys who still wanted to be active (including Mags and Rudy Fratto) naturally gravitated to the next guy on the totem pole, Joe Andriacchi. You know the story and it correlates with what Fosco wrote (which may not be entirely accurate).

What wasn’t accurate? The interview with mags sounded very plausible about the outfit drying up for him and difronzo changing and wanting to go legit

[Antiliar]

What wasn’t accurate? The interview with mags sounded very plausible about the outfit drying up for him and difronzo changing and wanting to go legit

Sure it sounds plausible, but we often don't have the information to make a conclusion for 20 to 50 years.

[Pete]

What wasn’t accurate? The interview with mags sounded very plausible about the outfit drying up for him and difronzo changing and wanting to go legit

Sure it sounds plausible, but we often don't have the information to make a conclusion for 20 to 50 years.

This is one train of thought I’d never got. If I made member says that’s the case I think it should be believed above all else. Same thing with people saying nick c is wrong and joe Nick was the boss. How’s a made member not gonna know the boss? I still can’t understand why the ferriola thing won’t die. Besides testimony look at wiretaps. Carlisi has marcello tell rocky where joe should meet him. If joe was the boss Sam would be be dictating who meets where. Numerous other cooperators said Sam was the boss Lenny Patrick scarpelli the list goes on.i don’t even know why I’m starting this cuz I won’t change any minds whatever

[Antiliar]

What wasn’t accurate? The interview with mags sounded very plausible about the outfit drying up for him and difronzo changing and wanting to go legit

Sure it sounds plausible, but we often don't have the information to make a conclusion for 20 to 50 years.

This is one train of thought I’d never got. If I made member says that’s the case I think it should be believed above all else. Same thing with people saying nick c is wrong and joe Nick was the boss. How’s a made member not gonna know the boss? I still can’t understand why the ferriola thing won’t die. Besides testimony look at wiretaps. Carlisi has marcello tell rocky where joe should meet him. If joe was the boss Sam would be be dictating who meets where. Numerous other cooperators said Sam was the boss Lenny Patrick scarpelli the list goes on.i don’t even know why I’m starting this cuz I won’t change any minds whatever

I think most members of Black Hand agree that Ferriola was never the boss. The thing about John DiFronzo is that his FBI file will be heavily redacted, but after Andriacchi and his brothers die, less so. After Sarno and Marcello go, they can remove more redactions.

[Villain]

Heres another short but quite funny Outfit story from the old days...

By 1961, Sam Teets Battaglia was the supreme boss around the West Side with interests stretching from the Northwest all the way to Cicero, which included Grand Av and the Near West Side, Melrose Park, Stone and Franklin Park, Northlake and he even had some interests in northwest Indiana.

During those days there was one unwritten rule and that was, almost every member of the Mob had a mistress of his own and Battaglia was no exception and his "secret love" was one blond bombshell named Darlene Fasel Kalivoda.

So one day the pair was driving in their 1960 maroon Oldsmobile towards Bloomingdale, Illinois. They were returning from an outing at Battaglia’s Free Meadows farm, and while approaching the small town, Battaglia pressed hard on the accelerator and the car darted in and out of the holiday traffic.

Police Chief George Mueller of the Bloomingdale police took notice of this and began a pursuit of Battaglia on Lake Street. While he was chasing Battaglia, the cop radioed to Sgt. Richard Loy for assistance and the pursuit continued for more than a mile before the cops managed to curb Battaglia’s car at Lake and Bloomingdale road.

Battaglia stepped out of his car and instantly started cursing and yelling at the cops. Chief Mueller said to Battaglia that he was speeding, and Battaglia replied “You’re a liar!” Furthermore Battaglia called the cops "a couple of keystone cops".

Miss Kalivoda sat calmly in the car while Battaglia continued to curse and also refused to show his driver license. After a while Chief Mueller had enough of Battaglia’s behaviour and said “You’re going to jail” and Battaglia again replied “Try and put me there.”

So the cops started to push Battaglia across the street to Bloomingdale’s one room police station and locked him up in a single cell. Battaglia cursed and fumed there for more than an hour while the cops wrote out a charge for driving 70 miles an hour in a 50 mile zone, resisting arrest, disorderly conduct, and disobedience of a police officer.

Police Magistrate James Bell fixed Battaglia’s bond at $417, and while still cursing Battaglia opened his wallet and produced the $417, and Chief Mueller estimated that at least $2,000 remained. Battaglia with some parting shots of profanity stomped out of the police station and drove away at a normal rate of speed.

So this “adventure” ended ignominiously for the pair because of Battaglia’s terrible temper. But because of that kind of temper, three months later Battaglia’s reputation as one of the toughest gangsters was shattered to pieces by an ordinary Chicago police sergeant.

On August 22, 1961 police sergeant Francis Nash and his partners detectives John Zitek, Maurice Guerin and Frank Kenny set out to look over a mob conference between Giancana, Battaglia and other Outfit chiefs. The meeting was said to have been arranged by Giancana to discuss measures to head off police investigations of eight recent gang murders which have been linked with the Outfit’s juice operators.

The meeting was in adjournment by the time Nash and his squad arrived at Giancana’s residence. So the police squad checked few more suburban gang hangouts and then headed back to Chicago thru Oak Park. When they arrived in Oak Park, the cops saw Battaglia and Rocco Salvatore sitting in a car near Battaglia’s residence. When the two hoodlums spotted the police squad they sped off with their car with the detectives in pursuit.

The chase went at high speed for more than a mile until Salvatore slammed his car in an alley near Elmwood Av. and Division St. in Oak Park. Nash’s squad was close behind. Suddenly out of the car came Battaglia and in his own style he started to curse at the cops. He approached Sergeant Nash and attempted to tear his shirt and challenged him to a fight.

Battaglia attacked with two wild haymakers, which missed and then Nash pushed him away with a light left jab. Battaglia, who outweighed Nash by 20 pounds, fell to the ground and cried out “Don’t hit me, don’t hit me again, you’ll kill me!” Meanwhile, Salvatore ran down the alley shouting “Robbers, robbers!”. It was a very hilarious situation.

A near resident who witnessed the situation called the cops who took the four policemen and the two hoodlums into the Oak Park police station. Story goes that at the police station Salvatore said to his boss that they should retaliate but Battaglia replied “Forget about the whole thing. I don’t want any trouble over this. I don’t want any part of those Chicago coppers.”

[Pete]

What wasn’t accurate? The interview with mags sounded very plausible about the outfit drying up for him and difronzo changing and wanting to go legit

Sure it sounds plausible, but we often don't have the information to make a conclusion for 20 to 50 years.

This is one train of thought I’d never got. If I made member says that’s the case I think it should be believed above all else. Same thing with people saying nick c is wrong and joe Nick was the boss. How’s a made member not gonna know the boss? I still can’t understand why the ferriola thing won’t die. Besides testimony look at wiretaps. Carlisi has marcello tell rocky where joe should meet him. If joe was the boss Sam would be be dictating who meets where. Numerous other cooperators said Sam was the boss Lenny Patrick scarpelli the list goes on.i don’t even know why I’m starting this cuz I won’t change any minds whatever

I think most members of Black Hand agree that Ferriola was never the boss. The thing about John DiFronzo is that his FBI file will be heavily redacted, but after Andriacchi and his brothers die, less so. After Sarno and Marcello go, they can remove more redactions.

It was brought up here recently I think pogo if not my apologies roemer had great info but you can’t believe him about who was the boss over nick

[Villain]

What wasn’t accurate? The interview with mags sounded very plausible about the outfit drying up for him and difronzo changing and wanting to go legit

Sure it sounds plausible, but we often don't have the information to make a conclusion for 20 to 50 years.

This is one train of thought I’d never got. If I made member says that’s the case I think it should be believed above all else. Same thing with people saying nick c is wrong and joe Nick was the boss. How’s a made member not gonna know the boss? I still can’t understand why the ferriola thing won’t die. Besides testimony look at wiretaps. Carlisi has marcello tell rocky where joe should meet him. If joe was the boss Sam would be be dictating who meets where. Numerous other cooperators said Sam was the boss Lenny Patrick scarpelli the list goes on.i don’t even know why I’m starting this cuz I won’t change any minds whatever

I think most members of Black Hand agree that Ferriola was never the boss. The thing about John DiFronzo is that his FBI file will be heavily redacted, but after Andriacchi and his brothers die, less so. After Sarno and Marcello go, they can remove more redactions.

It was brought up here recently I think pogo if not my apologies roemer had great info but you can’t believe him about who was the boss over nick

Snakes said that Roemer was retired by that time so he is off

[B.]

You may have seen this report (which comes from Angelo Bruno's office bug), but quick question:



This meeting appears to have happened shortly before Albert Anastasia was killed.

A meeting did happen on Richie Boiardo's estate and was later described by Gambino CI Carmine Lombardozzi. It took place between Anastasia's murder and Apalachin with the intention of discussing the Anastasia murder.

Pat Massi says both Giancana and Accardo attended the first meeting, while Lombardozzi says Giancana attended the second meeting as one of the Commission representatives.

Do you guys happen to have specific info on what Giancana and Accardo's positions were during this period? I have seen info that says 1957 is when Accardo stepped down as official boss and his underboss Giancana became the new official boss (as far as national recognition is concerned), but I don't know whether that is credible or not. I found it interesting they both attended the first meeting in NYC.

Could this have also been an opportunity for Accardo to transition out of his previous role and introduce Giancana as the new representative of Chicago or would that have already happened by late 1957?

[Snakes]

It is my understanding that Ricca advised Accardo to step back after his (then) recent tax problems that nearly landed him in prison. Giancana was then appointed boss while Accardo took a more senior, but less active, role assisting Ricca with major decisions.

I'm no expert on this era so Antilliar or Villain will probably be able to provide more details.

I can't speak on that meeting specifically but the timeline matches up and it certainly could have provided an opportunity for Accardo to introduce Giancana to the other families.

[Antiliar]

According to the Justice Department, the meeting at Boiardo's house took place on November 10, 1957, after Anastasia was killed.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Or ... frontcover

Some other docs say Pollina was the boss from around 1959 to 1960. Accardo stepped down in either 1956 or 57, but most say 1956. During this entire period Ricca was "The Man."

[Frank]

Didnt Giancana piss Anastasia off at a previous meeting.Not sure but I think Accardo was there too. I think Sam cofronted Albert about membership selling.

[Villain]

You may have seen this report (which comes from Angelo Bruno's office bug), but quick question:



This meeting appears to have happened shortly before Albert Anastasia was killed.

A meeting did happen on Richie Boiardo's estate and was later described by Gambino CI Carmine Lombardozzi. It took place between Anastasia's murder and Apalachin with the intention of discussing the Anastasia murder.

Pat Massi says both Giancana and Accardo attended the first meeting, while Lombardozzi says Giancana attended the second meeting as one of the Commission representatives.

Do you guys happen to have specific info on what Giancana and Accardo's positions were during this period? I have seen info that says 1957 is when Accardo stepped down as official boss and his underboss Giancana became the new official boss (as far as national recognition is concerned), but I don't know whether that is credible or not. I found it interesting they both attended the first meeting in NYC.

Could this have also been an opportunity for Accardo to transition out of his previous role and introduce Giancana as the new representative of Chicago or would that have already happened by late 1957?

Good find. Theres also one convo from Bruno in which he says something like..."Giancana is like us, he works with everyone he meets"...whatever that means

The time period from 1953 until 1956 is quite complicated regarding the Outfit, mainly because of the alleged inner conflict between Ricca and Accardo. Sources say that Ricca told Accardo to step down but the latter one allegedly refused. So few bodies popped up and senior members from the east coast began arriving in Chicago to solve the problem, and two of those were Tony Ricci and John Torrio.

It seems that during the conflict, Giancana (underboss closer to Ricca) stayed in the middle and was probably helped by Tony Capezio (major capo closer to Accardo) in keeping the organization in one piece. Some say that both Capezio and Giancana were quite feared and secured the throne while Ricca and Accardo were having their beef

By 1955 or after the Ricci/Torrio meeting, the situation began to cool down and that same year Capezio died of a heart attack (Giancana came to his funeral), followed by Riccas senior advisor Louie Campagna (the whole Outfit went to his funeral). In 56 Guzik also died and so there few free top spots.

So in 1956 and 57, we have Accardo constantly schooling Giancana regarding the commission and the national mob which meant that Momo was the new Outfit boss and Accardo was slowly taking Campagnas role as senior advisor, while Ricca kept the top boss spot. After that, both Ricca and Giancana were commission reps, although when that Fischetti/Coppola problem occurred, Accardo was the one who accompanied Momo on that meeting in Florida (Gambino, Lucchese, Chicago and the Genoveses were present in Fla...no Profaci or Bonanno)

[B.]

Villain + Snakes, thank you for the replies. Definitely helps add context to their presence together.

I suspect Accardo was there to introduce Giancana to the other Commission members with Giancana's new position unless that happened earlier. Procedure required a promoted leader to be formally introduced again (even to made members he already knew) with his new rank by a third party who had been introduced to the leader with his new rank. Complicated, but it was likely to prevent a Fratianno type situation. Even though I'm sure everyone knew Giancana had been promoted, he couldn't go to the meeting and start telling people, "Hey guys, Accardo stepped down and I'm the representative now." Accardo or someone else would have to do it, so that might be one reason they both attended.

According to the Justice Department, the meeting at Boiardo's house took place on November 10, 1957, after Anastasia was killed.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Or ... frontcover

Some other docs say Pollina was the boss from around 1959 to 1960. Accardo stepped down in either 1956 or 57, but most say 1956. During this entire period Ricca was "The Man."

Thanks for the info.

Yeah, something is off on Massi's account unless there were two meetings held at Boiardo's estate involving similar attendees. He could have misremembered, but it seems strange given Anastasia being alive is central to the story. I suppose if Boiardo's place was seen as a suitable location they would use it more than once. Wasn't Joe Barbara's property (or another nearby location) used for the 1956 Commission meeting and then again in 1957 for Apalachin? May have been a similar deal with Boiardo.

Recordings of Commission members show they complained about having to travel often. 1956-1957 must have been stressful for the Chicago leaders, having to travel to the east coast a number of times for affairs that didn't directly concern Chicago.

Massi was a capodecina in Philadelphia in 1957 and so was Pollina, so maybe both Massi and Pollina attended as captains and Massi misremembered the timeline on Pollina's rank. Massi was one of the other candidates for boss in the election after Ida left, so both he and Pollina were top leaders at this time. If it's true Anastasia was fearful of his life before his murder, that adds a new twist on his murder given his murder was committed by a rival faction without Commission sanction until after the fact.

Lombardozzi gave an accurate account of the Nov. 10 meeting and his description of the attendees matches the timeline perfectly. He said Giancana attended as a Commission rep and that Joe Ida was there as well. This makes sense given Joe Ida didn't flee the US until after Apalachin.

[Villain]

Villain + Snakes, thank you for the replies. Definitely helps add context to their presence together.

I suspect Accardo was there to introduce Giancana to the other Commission members with Giancana's new position unless that happened earlier. Procedure required a promoted leader to be formally introduced again (even to made members he already knew) with his new rank by a third party who had been introduced to the leader with his new rank. Complicated, but it was likely to prevent a Fratianno type situation. Even though I'm sure everyone knew Giancana had been promoted, he couldn't go to the meeting and start telling people, "Hey guys, Accardo stepped down and I'm the representative now." Accardo or someone else would have to do it, so that might be one reason they both attended.

Thats right...Giancana already knew both Vito and Anastasia i think, and i also think that he was also already acquainted with Gambino. One proof for that was Giancanas instant involvement in the promotion of Bruno and "harmonizing" with Vito and the rest of the commission fellas.

It is also interesting to note that besides knowing these guys, still it is possible that Momo wasnt aware regarding their seats on the big table, since we can see that Accardo explained to him everything, especially on who was who and who were the bosses that he can lean on. Now, this were your statement fits in, meaning I agree that the Chi boys werent quite happy for constantly traveling to have meetings with bosses from the east coast, but i personally believe that those were the same times when new alliances were created.

For example, when Accardo was the boss, he had close relations with Costello, Bonanno and Profaci but when Giancana became the boss, his partners were Vito/Catena, Lucchese and Gambino....and to tell you the truth, besides the Genoveses, still I think that by the early 60s the other two most powerful bosses on the commission were Giancana and Lucchese, followed by Gambino who i believe received his power by being closely connected to Tommy Brown. In addition, I also remember one meeting on which the Genoveses shouldve been represented by Giancana....maybe it was during the same time when Vito had problems, i dunno