Current Chicago Players 2020

[Villain]

FBI reversed its stance in several files by saying Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa. I don't think they ever went back and said outright that they were wrong about Ferriola they just adjusted their Intel and went with Carlisi after a time.

The Roemer thing is a bit more puzzling because he wasn't even living in Chicago at the time and had been retired from the FBI for several years so I'm not sure how he could have a CI at the meeting.

I wouldn't have put it beyond Roemer to fabricate dialogue because what he put in the book sounds even phonier than what people rip Scott B for using. Also, he had Al Pilotto listed as bring at the meeting when he had been in prison for several years at that point.

Nicely said

[Frank]

Did Patrick state Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa??

[Pogo The Clown]

Thank you. If they have in their files that Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa than that clears it up.


Pogo

[Snakes]

Also wasnt Ferriola picked up on wire saying somthing to the fact as I guess im boss of this mob or Outfit.Then a year or more later he was picked up on wire saying Im not the boss Carlisi is. Since Nick Calabrese stated Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa and later I found out Patrick said Carlisi was boss, Ive just gone by the Carlisi and DiFronzo succeeded Aiuppa and Cerone. But the Roemer informant and meeting has always confused things. Was it a genuine mistake or a lie?? Or was he boss for a very short time?

Here is my personal theory (which I usually hate giving) on the Roemer "informant." Roemer may have been referring to Butch Blasi as being there. Technically, Blasi was "his" informant, but from years ago when he worked Chicago. Roemer may have stretched the truth about having an informant there but it seems very likely that he guessed or fabricated the content of the meeting because as a retired civilian he would no longer have access to FBI files or informants, even ones that he had developed himself. Unless Blasi wore a wire (which we have no evidence of him doing) or personally contacted Roemer (doubtful) regarding the meeting it would be very difficult for Roemer to write dialogue for this section, so he probably embellished what he believed happened. He was still consulted by the Chicago Crime Commission so he was aware of some intelligence about Outfit structure and assumed nobody would know any better. Roemer also claimed in the book that Ferriola never left his house the day the Spilotros were murdered but Nick Calabrese later identified him as one of those present at the murder site, so it wasn't out of the question that he could be wrong elsewhere.

[Pete]

Where did this jimmy I is the new boss thing come from? Is this a burnstein?

[Villain]

Where did this jimmy I is the new boss thing come from? Is this a burnstein?

I think its a rumor and we dont have any straight info, although i believe he is one the top Cicero guys, if not the first

[Frank]

Where did this jimmy I is the new boss thing come from? Is this a burnstein?

I dont think Burnstein said it. I believe it was just speculation.

[PolackTony]

Great list guys, although Outfit does not have the same power as before until it has a lot of people involved, from what I read I thought it had a maximum of 40 members and associates.

Thanks man. If you ask me, there are between 10 and 15 active members and between 50 and 60 associates....

You said you believe history tends to repeat itself, do you believe that Outfit will be extinct and other gangs will take over as it did in the 1920s to 1930s?

The key to the Outfit continuing as an LCN Family depends on made guys. The age of all known members is just plain old. So unless there is members that are not identified they are in serious trouble. The Feds have them listed as viable. So I tend to think there is more to it, than what we know. Other gangs will always be around.

First thanks villian for putting our thoughts together. My point of doing this list and villian could disagree but my point was to show the most active guys are most likely associates and we are down to around 10 confirmed made active members. Of course it’s possible that some of these guys are made but we have no proof. This is why I say I think chicago could be going the way of Cleveland. All our confirmed members are ancient. My thoughts are most of the outfits current rackets are run by associates and I seriously wonder if they even make guys

Your last point remains the million dollar question of course. Unless and until an indictment drops where another made guy testifies on this, we're left trying to put together a puzzle with many important pieces missing. We know that Chicago always reserved induction mainly for those intended to occupy roles of greater responsibility and leadership. In their current state they could conceivably plug along for some time or even grow somewhat while only maintaining a very small handful of made guys. I think it's reasonable to suspect that if anyone is still ever made its just been a tiny number who are being brought into the inner fold of the leadership strata (I.e. as "lieutenants" or the like). 10 made guys for a hundred or so associates (and particularly if a good portion if these associates are really Outfit soldiers in crews answering to made guys as before) would keep them trudging along I think, unless a new indictment drops and in a final coup de grace truly decapitates the leadership core of made guys. Maybe they will make a guy or two once a decade just to keep the top slots filled, and it's no more card and sword stuff -- they're just told that they're "in".

Or maybe they really aren't making anyone at all, don't plan to or don't care to. Then -- as you and Confederate both contend -- they've got one foot in the grave and a dinner date with the dodo, though a kind of intermediate scenario could also be plausible here. On some of the other threads recently (Cleveland, LA, Buffalo, etc) some posters have put forward the distinction between defining an active or viable family as centering on either their continued organized involvement in criminal rackets, or instead as the continued presence of at least some semblance of a mafia family structure (i.e., a boss, underboss etc at least), no matter how moribund or shrunken and removed from any real active criminal rackets. While I've read those threads with a lot of interest (lots of great points and good reasoning on both sides of it), I'm not interested in entering that debate. Perhaps, however, the Outfit will mutate into an active and loosely organized criminal syndicate (small but with involvement in white collar stuff, bookmaking, maybe some juice and strong arming, maybe some drug stuff), while basically losing the LCN/Mafia family at its core. Maybe there will continue to be some active criminal organization, that continues to pull in new recruits, continues to call itself the "Outfit", but which no longer sees any need to make anyone and is thus a small but "functionally" viable mob while no longer warranting being considered a "formal" LCN family. Who knows...

[Coloboy]

I've always wondered if the top admin intentionally put out the word, either through the lower level street members, or even a press leak, that certain people were the "boss" to protect the real bosses. Did Ricca/Accardo intentionally do this with Giancana? Was it purposefully leaked that Ferriola was the boss to distract? Maybe even up to Marcello/Difronzo? Interesting stuff.

[Villain]

I've always wondered if the top admin intentionally put out the word, either through the lower level street members, or even a press leak, that certain people were the "boss" to protect the real bosses. Did Ricca/Accardo intentionally do this with Giancana? Was it purposefully leaked that Ferriola was the boss to distract? Maybe even up to Marcello/Difronzo? Interesting stuff.

My opinion is that every1 knew who were Ricca and Accardo, and if not they were able to see it after awhile, meaning they only saw the chief executives like Battaglia, Cerone or Giancana being replaced, while the same two old timers kept their positions for quite a long time...the point of being a top boss or senior advisor is very simple and the investigators werent able to reach them until the bosses made a mistake, like when Ricca sat down with a low level member and discussed illegal stuff and i dont blane them since its in their blood

[Snakes]

Yeah, everyone knew that Ricca and Accardo were the top bosses but since most everyone dealt with Giancana or the area bosses they were insulated and protected from investigation, at least until they slipped up as Villain mentioned above.

[PolackTony]

I've always wondered if the top admin intentionally put out the word, either through the lower level street members, or even a press leak, that certain people were the "boss" to protect the real bosses. Did Ricca/Accardo intentionally do this with Giancana? Was it purposefully leaked that Ferriola was the boss to distract? Maybe even up to Marcello/Difronzo? Interesting stuff.

My opinion is that every1 knew who were Ricca and Accardo, and if not they were able to see it after awhile, meaning they only saw the chief executives like Battaglia, Cerone or Giancana being replaced, while the same two old timers kept their positions for quite a long time...the point of being a top boss or senior advisor is very simple and the investigators werent able to reach them until the bosses made a mistake, like when Ricca sat down with a low level member and discussed illegal stuff and i dont blane them since its in their blood

It still remains a bit unclear to me the exact division of labor and scope of responsibilities/authority between the boss emeritus/"Old Man" position and the boss ("number 1"). My current assumption is that while the "Boss emeritus" was the ultimate source of authority and of course received his cut from the kick up, the day to day responsibility was invested in the Boss, who set the policy and direction of Outfit rackets, approved who was inducted, and appointed the capos and crew structure. So even if ultimate authority rested in Ricca during Giancana's tenure, thus authority was delegated to Giancana who was largely responsible for shaping the direction of the Outfit during his rule (for example he put his boys in as capos etc). I think it's easy sometimes to look at the panel structure of the Outfit admin and confuse it with a "front boss" type of system, and maybe there was some element of that as well, but from what I understand the "number 1" really was the day to day executive.

[Villain]

I've always wondered if the top admin intentionally put out the word, either through the lower level street members, or even a press leak, that certain people were the "boss" to protect the real bosses. Did Ricca/Accardo intentionally do this with Giancana? Was it purposefully leaked that Ferriola was the boss to distract? Maybe even up to Marcello/Difronzo? Interesting stuff.

My opinion is that every1 knew who were Ricca and Accardo, and if not they were able to see it after awhile, meaning they only saw the chief executives like Battaglia, Cerone or Giancana being replaced, while the same two old timers kept their positions for quite a long time...the point of being a top boss or senior advisor is very simple and the investigators werent able to reach them until the bosses made a mistake, like when Ricca sat down with a low level member and discussed illegal stuff and i dont blane them since its in their blood

It still remains a bit unclear to me the exact division of labor and scope of responsibilities/authority between the boss emeritus/"Old Man" position and the boss ("number 1"). My current assumption is that while the "Boss emeritus" was the ultimate source of authority and of course received his cut from the kick up, the day to day responsibility was invested in the Boss, who set the policy and direction of Outfit rackets, approved who was inducted, and appointed the capos and crew structure. So even if ultimate authority rested in Ricca during Giancana's tenure, thus authority was delegated to Giancana who was largely responsible for shaping the direction of the Outfit during his rule (for example he put his boys in as capos etc). I think it's easy sometimes to look at the panel structure of the Outfit admin and confuse it with a "front boss" type of system, and maybe there was some element of that as well, but from what I understand the "number 1" really was the day to day executive.

Nicely said and there was no "front boss"...there was day-to-day chief executive who handled all operations, both legal and illegal BUT if that same chief executive was making problems, it was for Ricca and Accardo to replace him. Also, if theres was some type of huge problems such as constant government issues or a murder of a member or whatever, it was up to Ricca and Accardo to make the final decision. For example, during the early 60s Ricca called upon some of the top guys and told them to close down some of their ops and to be patient. We also have both Ricca and Giancana being commission reps at the same time....

In addition, there were sometimes "seniority" issues within the Outfit, like for example Ross Prio once nixed a hit approved by Giancana mainly because the target resided in the same area (Miami i think) where Prio was also located at the time. There are even examples where Giancana, the boss, mostly walked to Prios car in which they conducted their meetings.

[Snakes]

"Front boss" would imply a patsy. Giancana, Fat Tony... those guys were no patsies. Ralph Natale, on the other hand

[Villain]

"Front boss" would imply a patsy. Giancana, Fat Tony... those guys were no patsies. Ralph Natale, on the other hand

I completely agree...like you said, those guys were no joke.

Also, when Giancana wanted to open or close down some specific big time gambling or vending operation, he didnt call for his capos but instead he called for Eddie Vogel who in turn was the real boss of all vending ops at the time, including slots and other gambling machines, and so later Vogel was the one who spread the word to the rest of the organization...it was that simple