Debunking Arnold Rothstein

[motorfab]

In fact as the stories about Luciano turn out to be myth more often than reality, this is what makes me doubt the role of Rotsthein (concerning Luciano anyway). However for the narcotics side I had read in one of my books that during the 1920s that he had sent one of these men, Yasha Katzenberg, to Europe to buy cocaine and heroin in factories ( it was legal until 1931) to resell it in the US.

[Angelo Santino]

In fact as the stories about Luciano turn out to be myth more often than reality, this is what makes me doubt the role of Rotsthein (concerning Luciano anyway). However for the narcotics side I had read in one of my books that during the 1920s that he had sent one of these men, Yasha Katzenberg, to Europe to buy cocaine and heroin in factories ( it was legal until 1931) to resell it in the US.

Like Capone, there's Luciano the Man and then there's Luciano the legend. Legends can be grounded in factual events. The more I look into all the things Luciano was said to have done, despite not being possible, was perhaps more symbolic. Joe Bonanno made a point to contrast him with the other 4 bosses at the time- he was the only bachelor who frequented hookers and lived in a hotel; the other 4 lived traditional lives- marriage, family, house, business etc. Joe Valachi made a point to state Luciano represented the final breakdown with him as a Sicilian and Genovese as a Neapolitan.

Maybe it could be likened to Castellano and Gotti, they each assumed the same role and did the same things, but their approach was different and Gotti's approach seems to have been welcomed by guys who felt marginalized under Castellano. (However, we've yet to read anything from someone on the Castellano side (Gravano don't count) so we don't even know the consensus.)

I figured they just learned all they could from the guy, and then killed him and took over his rackets and contacts.

All the books and articles I've read about Rothstein paint him as a World class criminal, but never a "Gang boss", if that makes any sense.

Was there a Rothstein GANG?

Good question, I'd like to know more about this too.

[MightyDR]

Robert Lacey's biography of Meyer Lansky which does a good job of debunking myths and trying to find the truth, says that there was no Rothstein gang or organization, rather that Rothstein was more like an investor who would do one-off business deals with people he trusted. Lacey also believes that Rothstein was actually killed over gambling debts and it wasn't an organized crime hit since there was no real organization to take over.

Lansky admitted in an interview that he knew Rothstein and insinuated doing business with him. It doesn't seem to be disputed that Lansky and Luciano were partners so one would assume Luciano did business with Rothstein too. Also, Informer magazine has a great article about Luciano's life which links him to Rothstein.

[Angelo Santino]

Robert Lacey's biography of Meyer Lansky which does a good job of debunking myths and trying to find the truth, says that there was no Rothstein gang or organization, rather that Rothstein was more like an investor who would do one-off business deals with people he trusted. Lacey also believes that Rothstein was actually killed over gambling debts and it wasn't an organized crime hit since there was no real organization to take over.

Lansky admitted in an interview that he knew Rothstein and insinuated doing business with him. It doesn't seem to be disputed that Lansky and Luciano were partners so one would assume Luciano did business with Rothstein too. Also, Informer magazine has a great article about Luciano's life which links him to Rothstein.

Informative! Thank you. Makes alot of sense.

In my research, I get the sense that the underworld of the 1910's was alot like today. Putting aside the Mafia as entities for a moment, the underworld was an organic mesh of so many different individuals with varying degrees of links depending on origins, social interactions and a 100 other things. It wasn't uncommon for an Italian, a Jew and an Irish to engage in some criminal activity, only to be arrested as a gang. Underworld alliances and mingling was also quite an organic affair. People didn't stick to their own groups, like what's seen on screen about this era, they went about town, they socialized, they frequented clubs, Italian, non Italian, Irish, Jews, some blacks even. As for Mafia members, they were no exception, they got involved with other people. Shit, Joe Morello, capo di tutti capi, was arrested in the 1890's with 3 Irishmen.

And another commonality- inside their own neighborhoods mafiosi reigned supreme, its residents knew the game and protocol. Once they ventured outside of their fiefdoms they were ordinary criminals. Irish, Jews whatever aren't going to know or be aware of whether or not an Italian was a member or not, its not discussed or breached. Same as today when they deal with blacks and Ricans, they're not going to know who's a member and who's not, they'll likely see them as "The Italians." And the Mafiosi understand this, they don't go around insulting everybody like they are bulletproof.

[Dwalin2014]

Has anyone read this book?
https://www.amazon.com/30-Illegal-Years ... 1508529450
among other things, it explores a theory that Rothstein accidentally shot himself, rather than being murdered. If this is correct, imo it would be a really disappointing and stupid end for such an important underworld character.

Although, to be fair, many statements in this book are quite forced, such as the idealization of gangsters like Lucky Luciano, Bugsy Siegel, Frank Costello, Joe Adonis and Meyer Lansky, in contrast to characters like Albert Anastasia, Al Capone, Dutch Schultz etc. While there may have been a difference in methods, but still, saying that Luciano and company were radically against violence and only guilty of gambling and bootlegging, is quite far-fetched, to put it mildly.

But still, the Rothstein theory sounds interesting, as disappointing such an outcome may be.

[motorfab]

Thanks for the info MightyDR

[Antiliar]

Has anyone read this book?
https://www.amazon.com/30-Illegal-Years ... 1508529450
among other things, it explores a theory that Rothstein accidentally shot himself, rather than being murdered. If this is correct, imo it would be a really disappointing and stupid end for such an important underworld character.

Although, to be fair, many statements in this book are quite forced, such as the idealization of gangsters like Lucky Luciano, Bugsy Siegel, Frank Costello, Joe Adonis and Meyer Lansky, in contrast to characters like Albert Anastasia, Al Capone, Dutch Schultz etc. While there may have been a difference in methods, but still, saying that Luciano and company were radically against violence and only guilty of gambling and bootlegging, is quite far-fetched, to put it mildly.

But still, the Rothstein theory sounds interesting, as disappointing such an outcome may be.

Thanks for bringing this up. It is an interesting theory and it actually makes sense.

As for his relationship with Luciano, the most recent bio of Rothstein depended on the hoax book "The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano," which really marred the biography. Luciano was asked about Rothstein in an interview, and he said that he loaned money to him. This also rings true, so Mafia guys were in the business of loaning money to gamblers and Rothstein was a gambling addict.

[Pogo The Clown]

"Nobody is bigger than you A.R." - Lucky Luciano.


Pogo

[aleksandrored]

https://www.amazon.com/-/pt/rise-fall-J ... 8&me=&qid=

This book looks very good and talks about Rothstein and the Jewish gangsters in the United States.

Curiosity: This is the only book that Herschel Goldberg (The real Noodles from Once Upon a Time in America) is mentioned.

[Villain]

If the bullet hole was in Rothsteins groin, than theres a great possibity that he shot himself accidentally since it happened to many mobsters including Capone, but if the bullet whole is in his upper parts than.....

Edit: CAUSE OF DEATH/SEPSIS AND SHOCK: There is a single bullet wound situated in the right belly, 3 inches to the right of the midline, 38 inches above the right heel, 2 inches in front of the right anterior superior iliac spine and 2 inch above it. Bullet wound of the belly, large gut, urinary bladder, prostate and pelves. Homicide.

Heres the rest of the report...

Approximate Age: 46 Yrs.

Body is that of a middle-aged white male, appearing to be the age given, scale weight 169 pounds, 5 ft 7 inches in height, well formed, well developed.

Body is warm, no rigor mortis, well muscled and well built.

Nose natural, lips natural, 4 days growth of hair.

There is a false rubber plate in the upper [jaw]. Lower jaw shows goldwork, right lower lateral incisor and also goldwork on the canines. The premolars are absent. The first molar is present. Left lower all absent.

In the penis there is a catheter retained by tape. Foreskin cut.

The guts are very warm.

Brain weighs 1400 grams.

CLOTHES: High tan shoes, marked Robert Whyte, 38 West 45th St., New York.

Fancy multicolored tie. Label: F. Georges, Boul. Des Capucines, Paris, France.

Blue garters. Lisle socks with white feet.

Turned down blue Lane 15 1⁄2 collar, laundry mark 2633, covered with dry vomitus.

Blue coat with red pin-stripes. Label: Wm. Wallach, N.Y. With vomitus on the collar and shoulders. There is a single hole just below the front edge of the lower pocket. No flares. Trousers of the same material. On the right side, upper portion, there is also a hole which passes through the label of the tailor attached to the pocket: Wm. Wallach, N.Y., N.Y. Custom Tailor. Arnold Rothstein, 10/29/27.

Silk shirt. Label: Harry Beck, Custom Shirt Manufacturer. With the initials A.R. and a hole in a corresponding position.

[Villain]

.....so it is possible that Rothstein was either shot by someone who sat right next to him, or he received that so-called "handshake" treatment which was used quite often during those days

[motorfab]

The most common theory is that it would have been a card game gone wrong. What you say can confirms it more or less

[Villain]

The most common theory is that it would have been a card game gone wrong. What you say can confirms it more or less

I agree. Are there any theories or guesses regarding the alleged shooter or who accompanied Rothstein at the time?

[motorfab]

The most common theory is that it would have been a card game gone wrong. What you say can confirms it more or less

I agree. Are there any theories or guesses regarding the alleged shooter or who accompanied Rothstein at the time?

I have no idea, that's why I made this thread (I know shit about A.R.)

[Villain]

The most common theory is that it would have been a card game gone wrong. What you say can confirms it more or less

I agree. Are there any theories or guesses regarding the alleged shooter or who accompanied Rothstein at the time?

I have no idea, that's why I made this thread (I know shit about A.R.)

Theres probably some info in the newspapers from that period and ill see if i can dig up something....