Cleveland Crime Family

[PolackTony]

It is clear what you were saying. 1993, 1995 or "late 1990s" you would still would have been a kid. The thought that you were regularly dining out at a particular restaurant to observer a high ranking mobster holding meetings and doing so enough times to know what his regular dining schedule was and exactly what he ordered is laughable. Even in 2001/2 you would have still been a pissant and not even of legal drinking age. Your story doesn't pass the smell test.


Pogo

There you go assuming again. 99 and 93 is a six year difference. It’s kind of a big gap. I could be 12 in 93 and 18 in 99. Kind of a big difference. Also, do kids not go to restaurants? Do kids not go to restaurants with parents and/or family. Are restaurants only for people that are certain age. That’s laughable that you live in a world where you think that. That tells me that you don’t get out of the house very much. Second, his eating habits were not a secret. There were multiple places you could find him during the week depending on the day.

Im not taking sides but this what Pogo and Confed refer to...and it seems that we have info on Lombardo being present on that 1999 meeting regarding that casino, probably right after his parole finished...so if Lombardo had any public deals, it mustve been during the end or after 1999...so maybe you mixed up the years a little bit, no big deal

Villain thanks for confirming the duration of his parole.

[PolackTony]

Also, since we've somehow managed to meld the contentious topics of Chicago and Cleveland into an unholy abomination of a thread, what are people's thoughts on Rudy Fratto's connections to Cleveland?

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/chic ... 31210.htm

Interesting that the indictment of Fratto and Billy Degironemo cited the involvement of "purported members of a Cleveland organized crime family". Purported by whom? LE, the Cleveland guys themselves, Rudy Fratto?

Would be interesting also to see input from people familiar with Cleveland on this.

[Angelo Santino]

From a historical perspective, the underworlds of Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit and Pittsburgh were all intertwined, Italian and non. We have evidence of criminals from these cities involved in networks as early as the 1910's.

[Patrickgold]

It is clear what you were saying. 1993, 1995 or "late 1990s" you would still would have been a kid. The thought that you were regularly dining out at a particular restaurant to observer a high ranking mobster holding meetings and doing so enough times to know what his regular dining schedule was and exactly what he ordered is laughable. Even in 2001/2 you would have still been a pissant and not even of legal drinking age. Your story doesn't pass the smell test.


Pogo

There you go assuming again. 99 and 93 is a six year difference. It’s kind of a big gap. I could be 12 in 93 and 18 in 99. Kind of a big difference. Also, do kids not go to restaurants? Do kids not go to restaurants with parents and/or family. Are restaurants only for people that are certain age. That’s laughable that you live in a world where you think that. That tells me that you don’t get out of the house very much. Second, his eating habits were not a secret. There were multiple places you could find him during the week depending on the day.

Im not taking sides but this what Pogo and Confed refer to...and it seems that we have info on Lombardo being present on that 1999 meeting regarding that casino, probably right after his parole finished...so if Lombardo had any public deals, it mustve been during the end or after 1999...so maybe you mixed up the years a little bit, no big deal

Thanks for posting Villain.
Nobody saw Lombardo "Holding Court" in the mid to late 90's" at a "Public Restaurant" when was he was on parole. End of this discussion.

I don’t think anyone claimed he was “holding court” in a public restaurant in the late 90s. In fact, I don’t think anyone claimed he was holding court in any restaurant at any time or year. Someone said they saw him at a private member social club with other guys which is very different then a public restaurant

[Patrickgold]

Also, since we've somehow managed to meld the contentious topics of Chicago and Cleveland into an unholy abomination of a thread, what are people's thoughts on Rudy Fratto's connections to Cleveland?

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/chic ... 31210.htm

Interesting that the indictment of Fratto and Billy Degironemo cited the involvement of "purported members of a Cleveland organized crime family". Purported by whom? LE, the Cleveland guys themselves, Rudy Fratto?

Would be interesting also to see input from people familiar with Cleveland on this.

That is interesting. If it’s the FBI is saying that I guess that means there is still a Cleveland organization. I wonder what members

[Wiseguy]

That is interesting. If it’s the FBI is saying that I guess that means there is still a Cleveland organization. I wonder what members

That's not what the FBI is saying, as much as you might wish it were.

[Patrickgold]

That is interesting. If it’s the FBI is saying that I guess that means there is still a Cleveland organization. I wonder what members

That's not what the FBI is saying, as much as you might wish it were.

Who is saying it? That was the question asked. You love to make statements with no answers. I’m sure I’m not the only one but I have a feeling most people on this forum cringe when they see a post by you in their topic. They want to get good information and all you give them is bullshit answers. Oh yea I really hope there is a la cosa nostra family in Cleveland. It will help me get layed. You got me.

[Wiseguy]

Who is saying it? That was the question asked. You love to make statements with no answers. I’m sure I’m not the only one but I have a feeling most people on this forum cringe when they see a post by you in their topic. They want to get good information and all you give them is bullshit answers. Oh yea I really hope there is a la cosa nostra family in Cleveland. It will help me get layed. You got me.

What "bullshit answers" have I ever given? You're the one telling stories about Lombardo and trying to argue it's remotely possible there's still a Cleveland family in 2020. The only ones who may cringe at my posts are those like yourself who have a distaste for reality and prefer to live in a world of make believe.

[Patrickgold]

Who is saying it? That was the question asked. You love to make statements with no answers. I’m sure I’m not the only one but I have a feeling most people on this forum cringe when they see a post by you in their topic. They want to get good information and all you give them is bullshit answers. Oh yea I really hope there is a la cosa nostra family in Cleveland. It will help me get layed. You got me.

What "bullshit answers" have I ever given? You're the one telling stories about Lombardo and trying to argue it's remotely possible there's still a Cleveland family in 2020. The only ones who may cringe at my posts are those like yourself who have a distaste for reality and prefer to live in a world of make believe.

Still waiting on your answer

[PolackTony]

Just to steer things back to the Fratto Indictment, the wording "purported" stuck out to me, as one is left wondering who exactly is doing the purporting. Just to be clear, this is language from the US Attorney for the Northern District of IL, not the FBI. But it still brings up the question of who were these alleged Cleveland "members" and what party was responsible for implicating them as members of a "Cleveland organized crime family". The US Attorney's office apparently thought this was significant enough to the case to cite it in the indictment, but it raises more questions than it answers.

[Wiseguy]

Still waiting on your answer

Nobody was saying there's a present-day organization in Cleveland, least of all the government.Those who understand the mob today will understand the context of the statement. That obviously doesn't include you.

As has already been pointed out, we've seen similar phrasing regarding Northeast Pennsylvania, Kansas City, and Buffalo over the past 15 years. It doesn't mean the feds still recognize a family in those cities.

[Patrickgold]

Still waiting on your answer

Nobody was saying there's a present-day organization in Cleveland, least of all the government.Those who understand the mob today will understand the context of the statement. That obviously doesn't include you.

As has already been pointed out, we've seen similar phrasing regarding Northeast Pennsylvania, Kansas City, and Buffalo over the past 15 years. It doesn't mean the feds still recognize a family in those cities.

This pretty much concludes what everyone thinks. You don’t care about actual facts. The question was I’m that fbi indictment involving Rudy Fratto it mentions individuals that are claimed to be part of a Cleveland crime family. Who said this and why is it in a FBI indictment?

[Angelo Santino]

Factual/Operational:
In our definition of what constitutes a crime family - structure, ceremony, continuity, members and associates we can say that Cleveland is gone and hasn't been a Family since the late 1980's. Since that point there's been 1-4 members who are a far cry from where the Family was a decade prior. As further evidence of this groups demise, there's been almost no activity that points to or implies there's any resurgence.

Formal/Organizational view:
If there's evidence of Chicago and New York's involvement with Cleveland as a formal entity then, inside the mafia, Cleveland exists to them, even if to us and the FBI there's nothing left. They would need to get permission to go into CL by giving a heads up to who's still around, even if its one guy in a nursing home. When that's no longer required because CL is dead or officially retired and not wanting to carry the flag, then anyone can go in there without asking first. This system is a mafia cornerstone that's rigidly followed.

[Wiseguy]

This pretty much concludes what everyone thinks. You don’t care about actual facts. The question was I’m that fbi indictment involving Rudy Fratto it mentions individuals that are claimed to be part of a Cleveland crime family. Who said this and why is it in a FBI indictment?

Since when do you speak for everyone or know what they think?

I've been giving you nothing but facts this entire time. I obviously care about them a lot more than you.

You're simply trying to use the phrasing in the press release to open the door to the absurd argument there is an LCN family in Cleveland. That's all this is.

The feds don't believe there is one and, for that matter, I doubt anyone else on the forum besides you does either.

This was a moot argument before it even started. You're just too clueless to realize it.

Factual/Operational:
In our definition of what constitutes a crime family - structure, ceremony, continuity, members and associates we can say that Cleveland is gone and hasn't been a Family since the late 1980's. Since that point there's been 1-4 members who are a far cry from where the Family was a decade prior. As further evidence of this groups demise, there's been almost no activity that points to or implies there's any resurgence.

Formal/Organizational view:
If there's evidence of Chicago and New York's involvement with Cleveland as a formal entity then, inside the mafia, Cleveland exists to them, even if to us and the FBI there's nothing left. They would need to get permission to go into CL by giving a heads up to who's still around, even if its one guy in a nursing home. When that's no longer required because CL is dead or officially retired and not wanting to carry the flag, then anyone can go in there without asking first. This system is a mafia cornerstone that's rigidly followed.

In the case of Cleveland, there's neither.

[Antiliar]

This pretty much concludes what everyone thinks. You don’t care about actual facts. The question was I’m that fbi indictment involving Rudy Fratto it mentions individuals that are claimed to be part of a Cleveland crime family. Who said this and why is it in a FBI indictment?

Since when do you speak for everyone or know what they think?

I've been giving you nothing but facts this entire time. I obviously care about them a lot more than you.

You're simply trying to use the phrasing in the press release to open the door to the absurd argument there is an LCN family in Cleveland. That's all this is.

The feds don't believe there is one and, for that matter, I doubt anyone else on the forum besides you does either.

This was a moot argument before it even started. You're just too clueless to realize it.

Factual/Operational:
In our definition of what constitutes a crime family - structure, ceremony, continuity, members and associates we can say that Cleveland is gone and hasn't been a Family since the late 1980's. Since that point there's been 1-4 members who are a far cry from where the Family was a decade prior. As further evidence of this groups demise, there's been almost no activity that points to or implies there's any resurgence.

Formal/Organizational view:
If there's evidence of Chicago and New York's involvement with Cleveland as a formal entity then, inside the mafia, Cleveland exists to them, even if to us and the FBI there's nothing left. They would need to get permission to go into CL by giving a heads up to who's still around, even if its one guy in a nursing home. When that's no longer required because CL is dead or officially retired and not wanting to carry the flag, then anyone can go in there without asking first. This system is a mafia cornerstone that's rigidly followed.

In the case of Cleveland, there's neither.

I don't know if there's any made Cleveland member's left, but Chris's point is that according to internal Cosa Nostra rules that a Family isn't declared extinct until the last man standing either dies or transfers to another Family and no one is left. So even if there's one made guy in a nursing home surviving on fumes, the Family exists because it exists in its members. As far as LE and everyone else is concerned the Family maybe non-viable and for all intents and purposes, extinct. "It was among the Italians. It was real greaseball shit."