Understanding Chicago

[funkster]

That is quite the complicated family tree.

That's why I just posted the obits, rather than try to explain.

Interesting that they list the Spina relative as having lived at 2210 Ohio, I am fairly certain that is also where Lombardo ended up living and as far i know his wife still lives and owns that building.

That's correct Lombardo lived at 2210 w Ohio for years. He grew up right at the northwest corner of Grand and Ogden, right across the street from Patsy Spilotro's Restaurant.

I( wonder if he came to own through that Spina connection. The place looks to have multiple units, maybe various family members occupied different apts.

[Confederate]

Honest question for anyone who lives in the Chicago area:
Does the Grand Avenue area "really" have any Italian Americans still living there? If so, are they congregated on one or two blocks? Is it more than one or two blocks? Why was that area called "The Patch"? Also, when reading about Giancana, it was mentioned that he came from the Patch which was Taylor Street. Which one was the Patch, Taylor or Grand? Were they both called the Patch?

[funkster]

It's very gentrified now. A lot of yuppies, bunch of legacy restaurants/businesses etc. Some but not many Italians left. Spina owns a lot of the property but i'm fairly certain he lives in the suburbs now.

[Snakes]

It's very gentrified now. A lot of yuppies, bunch of legacy restaurants/businesses etc. Some but not many Italians left. Spina owns a lot of the property but i'm fairly certain he lives in the suburbs now.

I asked someone from Chicago that lives in that area and knows some of the history. He said that several places were referred to at the "Patch." Taylor Street area (Little Italy), Smith Park, and West Town, to name a few.

[electricslim]

There's still a few Italians, but as others said mostly in businesses in the area. However, I think Spina does still live nearby.

[funkster]

There's still a few Italians, but as others said mostly in businesses in the area. However, I think Spina does still live nearby.

Could be right. Given his serious presence in the neighborhood and his former driver status, I wonder what held him back from taking over Grand Avenue. Maybe Albie had a closer relationship with the powers that be?

[Confederate]

If the story about Lombardo coming up under EP is true, then most of the following information simply falls in line, like the Grand Av boys using Cerones restaurant as one of their headquarters during one time, followed by the close both family and criminal connection between Lombardo and Andriacchi, and during the early and mid 90s both groups took over most of the interests of the former North Side mob.

I think Grand Avenue & Elmwood Park were so closely connected from years ago, that Lombardo could have still come up under Grand Avenue & been close to Cerone. If you look at our research, a lot of guys with the Elmwood Park Group were born in that Grand Avenue Area. Tony Accardo, Jack Cerone, Joe Gagliano, John DiFronzo, Pete DiFronzo & probably a few more. Maybe Joe Andriacchi & Lee Magnafichi? Don't know about them.

[Pete]

There's still a few Italians, but as others said mostly in businesses in the area. However, I think Spina does still live nearby.

Could be right. Given his serious presence in the neighborhood and his former driver status, I wonder what held him back from taking over Grand Avenue. Maybe Albie had a closer relationship with the powers that be?

Spina lives in a high rise downtown right on Lake Michigan he moved out of the neighborhood years ago

[Antiliar]

If the story about Lombardo coming up under EP is true, then most of the following information simply falls in line, like the Grand Av boys using Cerones restaurant as one of their headquarters during one time, followed by the close both family and criminal connection between Lombardo and Andriacchi, and during the early and mid 90s both groups took over most of the interests of the former North Side mob.

I think Grand Avenue & Elmwood Park were so closely connected from years ago, that Lombardo could have still come up under Grand Avenue & been close to Cerone. If you look at our research, a lot of guys with the Elmwood Park Group were born in that Grand Avenue Area. Tony Accardo, Jack Cerone, Joe Gagliano, John DiFronzo, Pete DiFronzo & probably a few more. Maybe Joe Andriacchi & Lee Magnafichi? Don't know about them.

Before Cerone headed Elmwood Park it was Grand Avenue. Capezio once lived at 2350 West Grand Avenue. In 1951 Cerone lived at 2000 77th Avenue in Elmwood Park, so he probably had something to do with the move. Lee Magnafichi lived in Galewood in 1953, which was a 5 minute drive from EP, and in the 1940s Andriacchi lived at 2212 W. Ohio Street - five minutes from Grand and Ogden.

[B.]

Previously i forgot to tell you that there is a photo of Merlo, Colosimo and Torrio, probably taken right before Colosimos demise in 1920, meaning they were obviously associated with the Mafia in Chicago.

Capone arrived in Chicago in 1919, and story goes that he was brought by Torrio and Gaetano Ricci aka Tony Goebbels. I dont know what period Ricci arrived in Chicago or returned to NY, but he probably returned sometime around the early 1920s, since one of Torrios top guys Robert Vanella returned to NY in 1921.

A lot of interesting stuff in there, including the other info you posted about Esposito and Ricca. Tony Ricci is someone whose name doesn't get mentioned as much as some of his peers, but almost comes across like an earlier version of what has been called the "messaggero" (i.e. liaison between Genovese and Chicago families). He was later described by an informant as the top mafia leader in Miami and though that's not true, it shows his stature carried throughout the country spanning decades. I don't know how formal that "messaggero" position was or what member sources have even mentioned it, but we do see certain individuals in the Genovese family who could have fit this role earlier on. Salvatore Pollaccia and Tony Ricci both come to mind.

The fact that Gentile said Esposito was a member close to Merlo, and then we have this photo of Merlo with Colosimo and Torrio suggests to me that Merlo may have been an important figure in bringing the mainlanders into the Chicago family, or at least he was able to mediate between them and the Sicilians. Coincidentally (?) it is after Merlo's death that we see tension and violence start to escalate between some of these people.

The only thing i know is that LaMonica allegedly lived at 658 W 31st st, while at the same time Charles English's brother Sam also had huge interests on 31st. Dont know if that means anything to you...

That could def indicate a connection. The reason I brought them up is that I found records of LaMonicas and Inglesias who were intermarried and came to Chicago from the same Sicilian hometown as the mafia members with those surnames. I'm not sure what the exact relation could be between the LaMonica and Inglesias who joined the Chicago mafia, but if they both lived/operated on 31st street that is a good indication they were familiar with each other.

Good research B, and to tell you the truth this is one of the best threads regarding the Outfit, besides having different thoughts and small conflicts at the beginning. Afterall thats the point of a great discussion by creating opposite opinions at the start, and in the end agreeing and shaking hands like real gentlemen.

Oh thank you, my friend. I appreciate that and I agree -- this thread has exceeded my original expectations and I've learned a ton in the process. Thank you for helping turn this ship in the right direction!

--

Just some random stuff I came across.

The common use of the term "outfit" within different US mafia families:








Not much to add to that, only that I'm always interested in the formalities vs. non-formalities and the protocol of the organizations and Chicago has been an enigma in many ways because of the language they use and protocol they follow (or don't follow). I didn't realize until a couple years ago that the term "outfit" was so common outside of the east coast.



Interesting they put Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroit in together as examples of groups who didn't necessarily honor all of the formal protocol of (for example) east coast groups. I also feel that this explanation for non-members having certain jurisdictional authority equivalent to members is well-stated and definitely describes Chicago, but again it's interesting they place Cleveland and Detroit in with this as well.



Not trying to dig up the ol' non-Italian membership discussion, but this is a great example of how certain Jews were seen in the Cleveland mafia. The source was obviously a non-member but still someone who existed in the Cleveland orbit who believed certain Jews (including our boy Rockman) were actually members. It shows you the stature these individuals had, but we know they weren't actually made members, similar to what we see in Chicago (but taken to the next level there).

--

A couple of other random items.



Maybe Cavita can weigh in, but why would old ties to Chicago prevent Buscemi from becoming boss of Rockford? Was the family concerned about becoming a puppet of Chicago (i.e. Milwaukee)?



Does anyone know if the actual transcript of this discussion is in the online NARA files somewhere? Very interested in examples of Chicago figures discussing or being involved with families outside of the west coast and midwest. There is the Colombo informant who reported that a Chicago representative attended the mid-late 1970s Commission meeting to mediate between the Abbatemarco and DiBella-Persico factions, and earlier we know Giancana was heavily involved in Joe Bonanno's initial dispute with the Commission.

The Philly discussion is of particular interest though as we don't see many, if any, connections between those families aside from Capone's earlier arrest there. We know they would have interacted at high levels, though, as indicated by the conversation referred to in that excerpt.

[cavita]

Previously i forgot to tell you that there is a photo of Merlo, Colosimo and Torrio, probably taken right before Colosimos demise in 1920, meaning they were obviously associated with the Mafia in Chicago.

Capone arrived in Chicago in 1919, and story goes that he was brought by Torrio and Gaetano Ricci aka Tony Goebbels. I dont know what period Ricci arrived in Chicago or returned to NY, but he probably returned sometime around the early 1920s, since one of Torrios top guys Robert Vanella returned to NY in 1921.

A lot of interesting stuff in there, including the other info you posted about Esposito and Ricca. Tony Ricci is someone whose name doesn't get mentioned as much as some of his peers, but almost comes across like an earlier version of what has been called the "messaggero" (i.e. liaison between Genovese and Chicago families). He was later described by an informant as the top mafia leader in Miami and though that's not true, it shows his stature carried throughout the country spanning decades. I don't know how formal that "messaggero" position was or what member sources have even mentioned it, but we do see certain individuals in the Genovese family who could have fit this role earlier on. Salvatore Pollaccia and Tony Ricci both come to mind.

The fact that Gentile said Esposito was a member close to Merlo, and then we have this photo of Merlo with Colosimo and Torrio suggests to me that Merlo may have been an important figure in bringing the mainlanders into the Chicago family, or at least he was able to mediate between them and the Sicilians. Coincidentally (?) it is after Merlo's death that we see tension and violence start to escalate between some of these people.

The only thing i know is that LaMonica allegedly lived at 658 W 31st st, while at the same time Charles English's brother Sam also had huge interests on 31st. Dont know if that means anything to you...

That could def indicate a connection. The reason I brought them up is that I found records of LaMonicas and Inglesias who were intermarried and came to Chicago from the same Sicilian hometown as the mafia members with those surnames. I'm not sure what the exact relation could be between the LaMonica and Inglesias who joined the Chicago mafia, but if they both lived/operated on 31st street that is a good indication they were familiar with each other.

Good research B, and to tell you the truth this is one of the best threads regarding the Outfit, besides having different thoughts and small conflicts at the beginning. Afterall thats the point of a great discussion by creating opposite opinions at the start, and in the end agreeing and shaking hands like real gentlemen.

Oh thank you, my friend. I appreciate that and I agree -- this thread has exceeded my original expectations and I've learned a ton in the process. Thank you for helping turn this ship in the right direction!

--

Just some random stuff I came across.

The common use of the term "outfit" within different US mafia families:








Not much to add to that, only that I'm always interested in the formalities vs. non-formalities and the protocol of the organizations and Chicago has been an enigma in many ways because of the language they use and protocol they follow (or don't follow). I didn't realize until a couple years ago that the term "outfit" was so common outside of the east coast.



Interesting they put Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroit in together as examples of groups who didn't necessarily honor all of the formal protocol of (for example) east coast groups. I also feel that this explanation for non-members having certain jurisdictional authority equivalent to members is well-stated and definitely describes Chicago, but again it's interesting they place Cleveland and Detroit in with this as well.



Not trying to dig up the ol' non-Italian membership discussion, but this is a great example of how certain Jews were seen in the Cleveland mafia. The source was obviously a non-member but still someone who existed in the Cleveland orbit who believed certain Jews (including our boy Rockman) were actually members. It shows you the stature these individuals had, but we know they weren't actually made members, similar to what we see in Chicago (but taken to the next level there).

--

A couple of other random items.



Maybe Cavita can weigh in, but why would old ties to Chicago prevent Buscemi from becoming boss of Rockford? Was the family concerned about becoming a puppet of Chicago (i.e. Milwaukee)?



Does anyone know if the actual transcript of this discussion is in the online NARA files somewhere? Very interested in examples of Chicago figures discussing or being involved with families outside of the west coast and midwest. There is the Colombo informant who reported that a Chicago representative attended the mid-late 1970s Commission meeting to mediate between the Abbatemarco and DiBella-Persico factions, and earlier we know Giancana was heavily involved in Joe Bonanno's initial dispute with the Commission.

The Philly discussion is of particular interest though as we don't see many, if any, connections between those families aside from Capone's earlier arrest there. We know they would have interacted at high levels, though, as indicated by the conversation referred to in that excerpt.

B.
That's exactly it. When Buscemi was made underboss most of the members distrusted him because he was a Chicago product, nevermind that he was born in Sicily. They felt that they should have members that were brought up in Rockford so they could take care of their own. Zammuto commanded so much respect however, that the members all respected his wishes. I have never read an instance in any report where a member criticized Zammuto.

[B.]

Thanks for filling that in. So Rockford members were consciously trying to avoid Chicago influence. It's interesting that the families closely surrounding Chicago (Rockford, Springfield, Madison, Milwaukee) remained so close to their Sicilian roots but couldn't avoid being influenced or even dominated by Chicago.

[Snakes]

The FBI had Rockford as a crew under the Outfit until at least the 80s so they really weren't sure where Rockford fell, either.

[cavita]

The FBI had Rockford as a crew under the Outfit until at least the 80s so they really weren't sure where Rockford fell, either.

See, that's what I never understood. If the FBI considered them a crew under Chicago starting in the 1980s wouldn't the made members in Rockford show up as made members of the Chicago Outfit? That's something I've never seen, and in addition I've seen late 80s FBI files where they questioned whether some Rockford members were strictly Rockford, or associates of Chicago, members of Chicago or Sicilian members. Very confusing but I'm still searching for consistency.

[B.]

I'd guess it was like the Gambino->DeCavalcante relationship. When Charlie Stango said, "And now we run under the fuckin' Gambinos," he didn't mean DeCavalcante members were now Gambino members, only that they were under their influence.

I assume when reports talk about Rockford, Milwaukee, and other cities being under Chicago, they mean it in the same sense. Small groups who may have peaked earlier and fell under the influence and direction of the regional power while retaining their own distinct family. Not saying that's the case now, but I would imagine there was a point in time where a Rockford member might say, "And now we run under fuckin' Chicago," and mean the same thing Stango did.