Understanding Chicago

[B.]

Yeah, I noticed that there was a wave of Sicilian killings later on. The 1944 murders of Onofrio Vitale and Frank Abbate would appear connected given their shared Cinisi heritage and history with Chicago Heights / Calumet City. Cesare Manzella who was also from Cinisi appears to have left Chicago around this time -- when he was deported in the late 1940s, he gave a Springfield address, suggesting he had moved there.

The murder of Nick DeJohn (DiGiovanni) appears unrelated, but he was a Sicilian and killed in 1947, around this period. DeJohn's mother's naturalization was witnessed by boss Michele Merlo and a Joseph DeLaurentis. DeJohn's father Giovanni was also the business agent for the Hod Carrier's union, a position previously held by boss Antonio D'Andrea. I suspect Giovanni DiGiovanni may have been a member for these reasons, in addition to his sons becoming involved.

Interesting Mangano was associated with Tropea, as Tropea was from Catania province which is also eastern Sicily. Catania has more history with the Sicilian mafia than Messina but is still the eastern part of the island and its history in the mafia is a bit more recent than western Sicily, producing few known early US mafiosi.

There were many early Chicago mafia figures from Castelvetrano, so would be interesting if Accardo had any connections to them.

[Villain]

Yeah, I noticed that there was a wave of Sicilian killings later on. The 1944 murders of Onofrio Vitale and Frank Abbate would appear connected given their shared Cinisi heritage and history with Chicago Heights / Calumet City. Cesare Manzella who was also from Cinisi appears to have left Chicago around this time -- when he was deported in the late 1940s, he gave a Springfield address, suggesting he had moved there.

The murder of Nick DeJohn (DiGiovanni) appears unrelated, but he was a Sicilian and killed in 1947, around this period. DeJohn's mother's naturalization was witnessed by boss Michele Merlo and a Joseph DeLaurentis. DeJohn's father Giovanni was also the business agent for the Hod Carrier's union, a position previously held by boss Antonio D'Andrea. I suspect Giovanni DiGiovanni may have been a member for these reasons, in addition to his sons becoming involved.

Interesting Mangano was associated with Tropea, as Tropea was from Catania province which is also eastern Sicily. Catania has more history with the Sicilian mafia than Messina but is still the eastern part of the island and its history in the mafia is a bit more recent than western Sicily, producing few known early US mafiosi.

There were many early Chicago mafia figures from Castelvetrano, so would be interesting if Accardo had any connections to them.

Thanks again.

DeJohn was allegedly Beneventos nephew and so when his uncle got killed, DeJohn fled to San Francisco, where he lived under an allias but was later killed in a joint operation made of both west coast and Chicago members. Leonard Calamia was a member of the Chicago crowd.

Also there were some old time members from the Chicago Heights crew who by the 1940s and 50s still lived around the North Side area, or vise versa meaning some North Side members also lived around the southern suburbs, which makes the situation even more confusing on who belonged to which crew.

It think that the reason for this confusion is that when the two old Sicilian groups ruled Chicago, or maybe they were only one organization i dunno, most of them were killed, some fled the city but many remained and joined the winning factions.

So I believe that from the 1930s until the late 50s, old time Sicilian members from both the North and southern suburbs, such as the Costellos, Bacino, Soldano, ONeglia, Pinelli, Morgano etc. still had close connections until somr of them were killed, died of natural causes, got deported or went retired.

This long time connection additionally explains Chicago Heights' jurisdiction over the newly created Indiana crew during the early 50s, mostly made out of Sicilian members from the old North Side faction. I also forgot to mention that besides the Northsiders, the Heights crew also never received a high position on the top admin.

There was a Frank DeLaurentis who allegedly worked for Diamond Joe Esposito and was killed on April 15, 1926; while his alleged boss Esposito was killed two years later.

[B.]

Yeah, I noticed that there was a wave of Sicilian killings later on. The 1944 murders of Onofrio Vitale and Frank Abbate would appear connected given their shared Cinisi heritage and history with Chicago Heights / Calumet City. Cesare Manzella who was also from Cinisi appears to have left Chicago around this time -- when he was deported in the late 1940s, he gave a Springfield address, suggesting he had moved there.

The murder of Nick DeJohn (DiGiovanni) appears unrelated, but he was a Sicilian and killed in 1947, around this period. DeJohn's mother's naturalization was witnessed by boss Michele Merlo and a Joseph DeLaurentis. DeJohn's father Giovanni was also the business agent for the Hod Carrier's union, a position previously held by boss Antonio D'Andrea. I suspect Giovanni DiGiovanni may have been a member for these reasons, in addition to his sons becoming involved.

Interesting Mangano was associated with Tropea, as Tropea was from Catania province which is also eastern Sicily. Catania has more history with the Sicilian mafia than Messina but is still the eastern part of the island and its history in the mafia is a bit more recent than western Sicily, producing few known early US mafiosi.

There were many early Chicago mafia figures from Castelvetrano, so would be interesting if Accardo had any connections to them.

Thanks again.

DeJohn was allegedly Beneventos nephew and so when his uncle got killed, DeJohn fled to San Francisco, where he lived under an allias but was later killed in a joint operation made of both west coast and Chicago members. Leonard Calamia was a member of the Chicago crowd.

Also there were some old time members from the Chicago Heights crew who by the 1940s and 50s still lived around the North Side area, or vise versa meaning some North Side members also lived around the southern suburbs, which makes the situation even more confusing on who belonged to which crew.

It think that the reason for this confusion is that when the two old Sicilian groups ruled Chicago, or maybe they were only one organization i dunno, most of them were killed, some fled the city but many remained and joined the winning factions.

So I believe that from the 1930s until the late 50s, old time Sicilian members from both the North and southern suburbs, such as the Costellos, Bacino, Soldano, ONeglia, Pinelli, Morgano etc. still had close connections until somr of them were killed, died of natural causes, got deported or went retired.

This long time connection additionally explains Chicago Heights' jurisdiction over the newly created Indiana crew during the early 50s, mostly made out of Sicilian members from the old North Side faction.

There was a Frank DeLaurentis who allegedly worked for Diamond Joe Esposito and was killed on April 15, 1926; while his alleged boss Esposito was killed two years later.

When I saw the name Joseph DeLaurentis with Mike Merlo on DeJohn's mother's naturalization I of course thought of Solly DeLaurentis but I have no idea how common that name is in Chicago. Because Esposito was a made member close to Mike Merlo and was close to a Frank DeLaurentis, it seems this Salvatore DeLaurentis might not be totally random.

What you said about the Sicilians from different neighborhoods overlapping in association and maybe even being in the same crews -- that makes sense and is probably a remnant of the way they previously operated. In most cities, early mafia crews (and families as a whole) weren't so much based around neighborhood or territory, but shared Sicilian hometown, blood/marriage, and other connections/relationships. This is one reason why in NYC each family was based not around a certain borough/neighborhood but spread out in different areas, yet shared the same family and even crew affiliations.

Looking into early Chicago, I suspect the same thing was going on and if there were different crews early on they were probably based more around the above types of relationships and not strict geography. We know all of them congregated in "Little Sicily", so there was a hub for all of them there, among other places. The Genna crew had many members from Marsala, Castelvetrano, and some other Trapani towns, so that seems like the foundation of their crew. The early Ciminna guys seem to have been similar and I don't think it's a coincidence that years later Ross Prio and Oneglia (both of Ciminna heritage) were business partners in Grande Cheese and part of the same crew. The Corleonesi were another interesting group. The Nicolosi brothers were related by marriage to mafia figure Mariano Zagone from Ciminna and the Nicolosis appear to have been early Chicago mafia figures from Corleone. Sam Oliveri arrived to the US with a relative of the Nicolosis and Oliveri's first cousin was married to NYC boss Tom Reina. The Ribera, Cinisi, and Caccamo factions in early Chicago appear to have been similar as they had connections to their paesani around the US and within Chicago.

The surviving Sicilians would have understood these network-based relationships rather than a geographical/territorial system the more Americanized members had to use to form relationships and crews. As things got more Americanized, even in cities like NYC you start to see the relationships become much more based around neighborhood and geography. Before the 1930s in the Gambino family, you would see members from Palermo bounce between the Bronx and Brooklyn without much distinction, but by the 1950s and 60s you see much more localized "Bronx" and "Brooklyn" crews without much overlap between them. Wouldn't surprise me if Chicago took a similar route, where things became more territorial as relationships formed based on neighborhood association and not from a network originating in Sicily.

I personally think that aside from Chicago Heights and Chicago being separate, the other Sicilian groups were part of one family. We can see where some of the Genna guys fell in line with the subsequent leaders from other parts of Sicily. It would be incredible if Accardo and Giancana could be connected back to the Genna crew but their heritage and involvement in the mafia might just be a coincidence. So many unknowns.

Interesting stuff -- thanks for adding to it. I'm very intrigued by the remaining Sicilian connections post-1931. I have a list of some relatively younger Sicilian members and many of them had heritage in Termini Imerese

[Villain]

When I saw the name Joseph DeLaurentis with Mike Merlo on DeJohn's mother's naturalization I of course thought of Solly DeLaurentis but I have no idea how common that name is in Chicago. Because Esposito was a made member close to Mike Merlo and was close to a Frank DeLaurentis, it seems this Salvatore DeLaurentis might not be totally random.

What you said about the Sicilians from different neighborhoods overlapping in association and maybe even being in the same crews -- that makes sense and is probably a remnant of the way they previously operated. In most cities, early mafia crews (and families as a whole) weren't so much based around neighborhood or territory, but shared Sicilian hometown, blood/marriage, and other connections/relationships. This is one reason why in NYC each family was based not around a certain borough/neighborhood but spread out in different areas, yet shared the same family and even crew affiliations.

Looking into early Chicago, I suspect the same thing was going on and if there were different crews early on they were probably based more around the above types of relationships and not strict geography. We know all of them congregated in "Little Sicily", so there was a hub for all of them there, among other places. The Genna crew had many members from Marsala, Castelvetrano, and some other Trapani towns, so that seems like the foundation of their crew. The early Ciminna guys seem to have been similar and I don't think it's a coincidence that years later Ross Prio and Oneglia (both of Ciminna heritage) were business partners in Grande Cheese and part of the same crew. The Corleonesi were another interesting group. The Nicolosi brothers were related by marriage to mafia figure Mariano Zagone from Ciminna and the Nicolosis appear to have been early Chicago mafia figures from Corleone. Sam Oliveri arrived to the US with a relative of the Nicolosis and Oliveri's first cousin was married to NYC boss Tom Reina. The Ribera, Cinisi, and Caccamo factions in early Chicago appear to have been similar as they had connections to their paesani around the US and within Chicago.

The surviving Sicilians would have understood these network-based relationships rather than a geographical/territorial system the more Americanized members had to use to form relationships and crews. As things got more Americanized, even in cities like NYC you start to see the relationships become much more based around neighborhood and geography. Before the 1930s in the Gambino family, you would see members from Palermo bounce between the Bronx and Brooklyn without much distinction, but by the 1950s and 60s you see much more localized "Bronx" and "Brooklyn" crews without much overlap between them. Wouldn't surprise me if Chicago took a similar route, where things became more territorial as relationships formed based on neighborhood association and not from a network originating in Sicily.

I personally think that aside from Chicago Heights and Chicago being separate, the other Sicilian groups were part of one family. We can see where some of the Genna guys fell in line with the subsequent leaders from other parts of Sicily. It would be incredible if Accardo and Giancana could be connected back to the Genna crew but their heritage and involvement in the mafia might just be a coincidence. So many unknowns.

Interesting stuff -- thanks for adding to it. I'm very intrigued by the remaining Sicilian connections post-1931. I have a list of some relatively younger Sicilian members and many of them had heritage in Termini Imerese

To be honest, except for Frank DeLaurentis and Solly D, i personally never came across any other Chicago member or associate with the same name. And also Joseph, thanks to you

Rosario Dispenza who owned a saloon in Little Sicily which was believed to be a "school" for future Mafiosi, also came from the town of Ciminna, so maybe he knew the Priolos. He was killed in 1914 i think. Also we must not forget that Prio was adopted and currently i dont remember his real name.

I agree with you that prevously the old Sicilian organization operated in their own style and it seems that the collaboration continued for some time but to an extent, mainly because the Outfit was divided on larger territories and districts, and the answer for this lies in its creation.

I can only tell you about the street connections since the only family or clan which was close with Giancana and its connectable to the Gennas, was the Battaglia family. Paul and August Battaglia were Sam Teets Battaglias older cousins.

Paul was born in 1895 and August was born in 1897 but im not sure if they were born in the US. Their younger cousin Sam was born in 1908 in Kenosha and his parents were Salvatore Battaglia and his wife Giuseppa(Josephine) Scaletta, followed by his brothers Joseph and Anthony. There was another Frank Battaglia (born 1906??) but im not sure if he was a brother of Paul or maybe to Sam or maybe he came from a third related family

So in 1923 Paul was arrested together with Angelo Genna for carrying a concealed weapon. They were taken to a police station but later the charges were dropped.

Also some reports from that period connect the so-called Battaglia clan to the 42 gang, same group in which Giancana allegedly used to mingle. Other reports say that Sam Battaglia knew one young hoodlum from those days Pete Nicastro, who in turn was also close friend of Giancana. Same story goes for the Pape brothers etc.

August was killed on January 4, 1931; Frank was killed on March 21 1932, and Paul was killed on August 24, 1939; so maybe you can trace their bloodlines.

Here are some additional faces who were associated with the Gennas, including Sam Amatuna, Albert Anselmi, John Scalise, Tony Campagna, Joe Novello and Pete Montalbano. There was a Tony Campagna in the LA area who was born in 1884 somewhere in southern Italy, but i dont know if its the same guy. I also dont know if he was related to Louis Campagna, one of the Outfits leaders.

As for Accardo, thats a tough one since at the age of 20 he was already associated with the Capone mob and also worked with many non-Italians. Accardo was made sometime between 1928 and 1930 and was probably placed under Mangano. For example in 1930, Mangano together with several crew members arrived at the police station and bailed out Accardo.

Accardos bloodlines (including Giancanas) allegedly came from the Trapani area aka Castelvetrano, but he was born in Chicago (same as Giancana) and grew up around the Near West Side and W Grand Av areas (Giancana was Taylor St). Later Accardo allegedly also hung around the the Northwest Side, in a joint that was owned by Capones henchmen Willie Heeney, John Moore aka Maddox and possibly Tony Capezio. In fact, I believe that it was Capezio who probably introduced Accardo to the Capone gang since Capezio was older, and later both ended up under Mangano, mainly because he had interests in those same areas. Between 1932 and 1935 Accardo and Capezio formed their own crew, separate from Manganos.

The Gianola you speak of was Leonard Gianola who started in Manganos crew but later joined Giancana and Lenny Caifano and by the early 60s his crew boss was Phil Alderisio.

In addition, Pinelli, Morgano and the Cardinale bros all came from Caltanisetta, but as I already said, same as the North Side Mob, the Chicago Heights/Indiana faction also never had a seat on the ruling admin, besides being overseen by non-Sicilians such as the Robertos, Ammiratos and LaPorte.

[B.]

Good info. I will have to look into the older Battaglia relatives. Thanks for the info on them -- Sam Battaglia is an interesting guy I haven't looked into much.

Amatuna looks to be from Ragusa province, not a typical mafia background, but Anselmi was from Marsala like the Gennas. So were Lorenzo Alagna and Giovanni Blandini. Scalise was from Castelvetrano like Montalbano (and Accardo / Giancana's families) and I also have an Anthony Campo from there as well but not sure how he fits in.

Descriptions of Montalbano make him a candidate for an earlier leader of the Trapanesi element that ended up under the Gennas. He was involved in a conflict with some other men from Castelvetrano in the early 1910s and the brother of an alleged Montalbano murder victim said Montalbano was a member of the mafia who had killed his brother. Relatives of his victims had come over with him on the same boat from Sicily. Here is a photo of Montalbano. Certainly looks the part of an early Sicilian gangster.

[Villain]

Good info. I will have to look into the older Battaglia relatives. Thanks for the info on them -- Sam Battaglia is an interesting guy I haven't looked into much.

Amatuna looks to be from Ragusa province, not a typical mafia background, but Anselmi was from Marsala like the Gennas. So were Lorenzo Alagna and Giovanni Blandini. Scalise was from Castelvetrano like Montalbano (and Accardo / Giancana's families) and I also have an Anthony Campo from there as well but not sure how he fits in.

Descriptions of Montalbano make him a candidate for an earlier leader of the Trapanesi element that ended up under the Gennas. He was involved in a conflict with some other men from Castelvetrano in the early 1910s and the brother of an alleged Montalbano murder victim said Montalbano was a member of the mafia who had killed his brother. Relatives of his victims had come over with him on the same boat from Sicily. Here is a photo of Montalbano. Certainly looks the part of an early Sicilian gangster.

Thanks a lot and yeah he does look like original old Sicilian Mafioso lol now that ive seen his face, i think that i have more then few photos in my old PC from old time Chicago "black handers" since thats how they used to label them at the time.

Regarding the Gennas...according to my research, the "myth" about they often using the younger criminal element seems to be true. Also, it seems that they didnt play any large role in the creation of the Chicago Outfit, but their legacy surely popped up decades later, meaning by the 1960s many young hoodlums who were allegedly associated with them back in the days, now they were big players in the organization.

My personal opinion is that, besides the Torrio/Capone faction from the South Side, Diamond Joe's group from the West Side also played a major role at the beginning or during the creation of the Outfit. These were the two main non-Sicilian groups which gave birth to the leading non-Sicilians crews that controlled the Outfit during the next decades.

We already know that besides being non-Sicilian, still Esposito qas a made member of the Mafia in Chicago. It seems that Esposito was first under Merlo and later under Lombardo, and his main role was the infiltration within Chicagos political system.

Back in the days most of us agreed that Esposito probably held the rank of an influential soldier who posed as political figure but besides that, he also controlled his own crew.

He and the Gennas shared the same areas and it is quite possible that they were connected, or maybe Esposito played some type of middle guy since according to Gentile, there was some type of conflict between Genna and Joe Aiello, and that the new boss Lombardo tried to straight things up and to keep the peace between the two groups, same as his late predecessor Merlo.

But after the elimination of the Gennas, Aiello became Lombardos underboss so it seems that Lombardo possibly arrived with another agenda.

I dont know if there were any made guys beneath Esposito, but he surely had sime quite interesting faces such as Tony Volpe and Paul Ricca, both being immigrants and non-Sicilians. Other crew members were his brother Sam Esposito, followed by their bodyguards Ralph and Joe Varchetti or Varchetto (later involved in Espositos murder), also one Philip Leonatti or Leonetti, Frank DeLaurentis (killed 1926), John Tucillo (killed 1926) and John Infantino.

My personal belief is that Volpe and Ricca were probably made later by Capone but for the rest of the fellas, i dont have a clue.

I also believe that the so-called Montana clan from Melrose Park were also connected to Esposito, and I also believe that John Montana Sr was a made member of the Mafia, same as his son Joe Montana. Theres also possibility that John's nephew or Joe's son John Jr was made later into the Outfit. I think that Antiliar knows much more than me regarding this clan.

In 1928, Esposito was eliminated and Capone became a member of the Mafia, or a capodecina. By that time, Capone already had close connections to both Volpe and Ricca, with the first one being Capones personal assistant and the latter one had Capone as a best man at his wedding back in 1927.

According to newspaper reports from that time period, Joe Montana was seen greeting Capone after his arrivals from Miami or Cuba. In fact, Capone already placed in Melrose Park one of his main non-Sicilian lieutenants known as Rocco DeGrazia who probably received much higher status then Montana.

So I believe that right after Espositos demise, Volpe probably controlled the crew but by 1929 he already had too much trouble with the law regarding his immigration status, and thats why by 1930, Gentile reported that Ricca became Capones most trusted associate.

This means that Ricca was Capones main rep on the West Side at the time, which in fact was the second most powerful faction right after Capones personal South Side mob. The West Side faction included few of Capones closest of associates such as Frank Rio, Frank Nitto, Louis Campagna, Frank Maritote, Rocco DeGrazia and Lawrence Mangano, with the last one being the only Sicilian rep.

When Capone went to jail in 32, he joined his already imprisoned brother and main rep in Cicero and South Side Ralph Capone, followed by the third most powerful individual from that same faction Jake Guzik.

So thats the main point when the West Side Mob controlled the organization through Ricca, Nitto and Rio, and replaced the South Side mob. This wasnt some type of powerplay but instead it was more of a mutual understanding and trust between the two groups. And as a matter of fact, during the next decades those same two groups controlled the Outfit and were always above the rest of the factions such as the Chicago Heights mob and the mostly Sicilian North Side faction.

These were the guys who in turn represented the legacy or "products" from these two crews and controlled the Outfit during the following decades...first you will see the so-called elders or first leaders, followed by their legacy and im presenting to you only the guys who held positions on the top administration...i also might be wrong regarding some of the years but still those were the main fellas...

West Side Paul Ricca, Frank Rio, Tony Volpe, Louis Campagna, Frank Nitto, Lawrence Mangano, Frank Maritote, Rocco DeGrazia:

Tony Accardo underboss 1944 - 1946, boss 1947 - 1956, senior adviser 1957 - 1971, top boss 1972 - 1992; Sam Giancana underboss 1947 - 1956, boss 1957 - 1964 and senior adviser 1966 - 1974; Sam Battaglia underboss 1964 and boss 1965 - 1966; Jack Cerone boss 1967 - 1970, senior adviser 1974 and underboss 1975 - 1984; Fiore Buccieri underboss 1967 - 1970 or 71; Charles Nicoletti underboss 1972 - 1974; John DiFronzo underboss 1986 - 1992, boss 1993 - 1997, top boss 1998 - 2014

South Side Al Capone, Ralph Capone, Jake Guzik, Joe Fusco, Phil DAndrea:

Charles Fischetti boss 1944 - 1946, senior adviser 1947 - 1951; Frank Ferraro underboss 1957 - 1964, Gus Alex senior adviser 1971 - 1990, Joey Aiuppa acting boss 1971 - 1974, boss 1975 - 1984; Sam Carlisi boss 1985 - 1992; Al Tornabene acting boss 2001 - 2002, senior adviser 2003 - 2009

I didnt include guys like Jimmy Marcello, Joe Andriacchi, Sal DeLaurentis or John Monteleone since i dont believe that they were that much connected to the old guard

Btw whats your opinion on Salvatore Mastroianni? I think that i somehow managed to connect him to Lombardo with the help of a kidnapping case, known as the Ranieri case.

[Villain]

Since this thread is called "Understanding Chicago", I also want to add something about the so called new Outfit or post-70s era

Lets look at the old Outfit as four "crime families" under one top administration, and so by the mid 1990s, three of those "crime families" were finished, dead, adios amigos....

By the late 1970s, the old South Side Mob, or as I want to call it the original Capone crew, was finished and one group from the large West Side faction took over their areas and districts and became the new South Side mob (Buccieri, Torello, LaPietra, Ferriola, Infelice, Monteleone, Caruso Jr, Sarno, DeLaurentis, Cataudella, Inendino).

In reality, the West Side "crime family" took over all of the interests of the old South Side faction but as time passed by, that same particular West Side crew from Cicero and Chinatown which took over the South Side interests, during the following decades slowly became a separate faction from the West Side mob, mainly because of the rising younger generations who possibly "forgot" about their roots.

By the early 1990s, both the old North Side and Chicago Heights "crime families" were finished, and so again, the West Side group (DiFronzo, Andriacchi, Centracchio, Cozzo) took over most of the interests around the North, while the newly created South Side mob kept their interests in certain parts in that same territory such as Lake County, and also took over the Chicago Heights area and all southern suburbs

During that time the leaders of one group from the West Side mob, meaning the Melrose Park crew, eere in jail and by 2006 they were finished, and their interests in both Cicero and MP were mostly absorbed by the leading South Side faction under Sarno and his fellas. After the death of the Aiuppa/Carlisi/Tornabene/Marcello crew, the Sarno group finally had the whole Cicero area for them, something which many of his predecessors tried to do many years before him.

I also believe that by the early or maybe even mid 2010's the Elmwood Park crew also completely closed shop, thus possibly leaving some high level members like Dote in close relationship with the only remaining West Side crew aka Grand Av "crew" under Vena and Spina.

As for the so-called South Side mob, I currently still dont have any opinion because it seems that DeLaurentis is out of the game, same as Cataudella and Caruso Jr, Marino is dead and the only one from the old guard who allegedly is still "active" is Inendino, but still theres no real evidence about this claim. We still have guys like the younger Marino and Nick Ferriola but thats far from being a organization.

[B.]

I'm not familiar with Mastroianni. What can you tell me about him?

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If Volpe and Ricca were officially under a made member like Esposito, that would make them mafia associates much like Capone was a Masseria associate. We've seen where in other families mainlanders involved with Camorra type groups could still be on record as associates or even become inducted members of the mafia independent of their mainland affiliation, so it's possible something similar was in effect in Chicago. The Genovese, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and San Fran families all inducted confirmed Camorristi and there is reason to suspect many other families did as well. Capone was said by several sources to have been a Camorrista before his induction and he was also on record with Masseria as an associate.

The early membership of Esposito opens the doors of possibility for other mainlanders gaining membership throughout the 1920s. Given how many mainlanders there were in Chicago and how dominant they would become by the start of the next decade, it's reasonable to assume some of the influential mainlanders from that era became members pre-Capone though with such little info it would seem difficult to speculate. Some close Capone associates must have gotten their membership directly from him, but I do wonder about Ricca.

Magaddino said Ricca spoke to him about high-level mafia politics at the 1931 Chicago meeting, which shows he was a powerful member at that point and it sounds like Magaddino was already familiar with him. He also mentions Ricca in context with Toto LoVerde, who Magaddino says was the boss, though he says LoVerde was head of the "greaseball" faction opposed to the "Americanized" faction. He seems to mention Ricca in context with the "Americanized" faction (which makes sense, as "greaseball" = Sicilian), though he is referring to both groups as part of the Chicago family. If Ricca was the "Americanized" faction representative at the 1931 Chicago meeting alongside boss Toto Loverde and had the confidence to talk to the Buffalo boss about important mafia politics, that suggests he may have already had a ranking position in Chicago before Capone officially replaced LoVerde. No doubt Ricca would have been representing Capone's interests as well.

Would be interesting if Ricca was made under the Sicilian leadership before Capone transferred from the Masseria family and took over Chicago. It's speculation, but it could explain how he quickly gained the stature he had beyond his close relationship to Capone. If he was under Esposito and held an official rank under LoVerde that could explain more about the situation.

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Not sure I understand the idea of Chicago being multiple families aside from the Chicago family and Chicago Heights family before they merged. I understand the crews being fairly autonomous with their own roots, but are there any sources who refer to them as separate families? James Basile said the "crew bosses" (captains) were under a "boss of bosses", but by BOB he meant what we would normally call the boss /rappresentante, as he said Giancana once held this position.

Along the same lines, I'd say the Gennas connect to the outfit in the sense that they were part of the same family earlier on and some of their crew later reported to other leaders, including Aiello. From what I've read on the Gennas, they sound like a Trapanese faction within the Chicago family, maybe a crew like the other outfit crews over the years.

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Random note, but I thought it was strange the D'Andreas were from Caltanissetta as few Chicago mafiosi seem to have roots there and most mafiosi from there were in the Buffalo and Pittston families (and as you know the D'Andreas had lived in Buffalo earlier). If you look at a map, though, their hometown Valledolmo is close to the eastern Palermo province villages that made up much of the early Chicago membership so it makes some sense.

Some others from Caltanissetta I found are Joseph LaMonica and the English brothers, whose families come from the same village Santa Caterina Villarmosa. Can't confirm the direct relation, but the LaMonica and Inglisa/Inglese/Inglesia names who came to the US from Santa Caterina Villarmosa are intermarried. Is there a known mafia connection between LaMonica and the English brothers? Or for that matter to Phil D'Andrea?

Enna is also worth bringing up. Early figure Filippo Gnolfo and later the Gruttadaura brothers had heritage in Villarosa and the Gruttadauras were nephews of Anthony Pinella, who traces back to nearby Calascibetta along with Tommy Morgano. James Cordovano was from Nicosia.

Orazio Tropea being from Catania province also stands out. Not a lot of early US mafiosi from there, though Catania did have a small mafia presence in Sicily.

These areas in central-east Sicily are always interesting to me because there were mafia families there in Sicily but they appear to have been much more sparse and produced relatively few mafia members in the US.

[Villain]

Not sure I understand the idea of Chicago being multiple families aside from the Chicago family and Chicago Heights family before they merged. I understand the crews being fairly autonomous with their own roots, but are there any sources who refer to them as separate families?

I used the term "crime families" so i can easily explain the factions that were created in 1931 or 32, and thats why i used ""

Torrio/Capone was one group (Yale/Masseria), and Lombardo/Esposito/Loverde/Ricca (first D'Aquila and later Masseria) was another, followed by the Chicago Heights faction (first D'Aquila and later Masseria). Later when Capone became the boss of Chicago, the old Lombardo/Loverde faction broke in two separate groups, one being the Sicilian North Side mob under DeGeorge and O'Neglia and the other was the West Side faction under Ricca, which included mostly non-Sicilian crew bosses such as Volpe, Rio, Nitto, Campagna, DeGrazia etc.

From that point on and during the following decades you can often see four major capos who received their orders from the underboss or boss, and later spread them around the less powerful capos and crew bosses from theor own areas North (DeGeorge, Prio), West (Ricca/Nitto), South (Capone/D'Andrea) and Chicago Heights (Roberto/Ammirato).

The early membership of Esposito opens the doors of possibility for other mainlanders gaining membership throughout the 1920s. Given how many mainlanders there were in Chicago and how dominant they would become by the start of the next decade, it's reasonable to assume some of the influential mainlanders from that era became members pre-Capone though with such little info it would seem difficult to speculate. Some close Capone associates must have gotten their membership directly from him, but I do wonder about Ricca.

Magaddino said Ricca spoke to him about high-level mafia politics at the 1931 Chicago meeting, which shows he was a powerful member at that point and it sounds like Magaddino was already familiar with him. He also mentions Ricca in context with Toto LoVerde, who Magaddino says was the boss, though he says LoVerde was head of the "greaseball" faction opposed to the "Americanized" faction. He seems to mention Ricca in context with the "Americanized" faction (which makes sense, as "greaseball" = Sicilian), though he is referring to both groups as part of the Chicago family. If Ricca was the "Americanized" faction representative at the 1931 Chicago meeting alongside boss Toto Loverde and had the confidence to talk to the Buffalo boss about important mafia politics, that suggests he may have already had a ranking position in Chicago before Capone officially replaced LoVerde. No doubt Ricca would have been representing Capone's interests as well.

Would be interesting if Ricca was made under the Sicilian leadership before Capone transferred from the Masseria family and took over Chicago. It's speculation, but it could explain how he quickly gained the stature he had beyond his close relationship to Capone. If he was under Esposito and held an official rank under LoVerde that could explain more about the situation.

Some time ago I said the same thing about Ricca, meaning theres a possibility that he was made before Capone since most of the old bosses allegedly respected him and thats why he was Capones emissary to NY and the rest of the fams. Capone was Riccas best man in 1927 (1 year before Capone was made), so maybe that also explains a lot of stuff regarding Capones infiltration into the Mafia. Later it was Ricca who succeeded Capone, not Nitto.

Long time ago i read somewhere that Ricca allegedly received pressure and tried to keep all top spots reserved only for the Italians, which confirms the huge influence of the non-Italians from the South Side faction at the time. When many of them helped in his early release during the 40s, things have changed, meaning guys like Guzik, Vogel and Humphreys "officially" became leaders (Ricca, Loverde and Vogel were once arrested together right before Loverdes demise). In fact, when Alex became one of the top 3 guys, Ricca was still alive.

Is there a known mafia connection between LaMonica and the English brothers? Or for that matter to Phil D'Andrea?

Again i can only tell you something about the street connections...D'Andrea was the boss of the Cicero/South Side mob and inherited Capones old crew. The English bros were from the West Side and started under Mangano, and operated around the northwest side, Fullerton St and the 24th Ward. But they also had interests in Cicero and the South Side, and as a matter of fact, when most of their ops around the northwest where closed down by the gov during the mid 60s, later they remained in Cicero and the South under Buccieri.

[B.]

Ah okay, so by crime families you were referring to crews/factions. No questions about that, then.

Last thought on Ricca -- it sounds like he was a Chicago associate which would have made it necessary for the Chicago leadership to induct him pre-Capone unless they "released" him to Capone. When Al Capone was given approval to induct ten members for his decina, anyone who was on record as an associate of Chicago would have been off-limits without approval from the local leadership (and it does sound like Capone followed mafia protocol when it came to the formalities). Because Capone was a Masseria associate and then a Masseria capodecina, I wonder if others in Capone's inner circle were also considered official Masseria associates. I assume Torrio continued to be a Masseria associate after moving to Chicago given his relationship to Yale and the Masseria group.

The close Capone / Ricca relationship and some other pieces that have surfaced about Capone's relationship with Chicago family figures shows that he was friendly with some of the local group and that must have helped him when he transferred to Chicago and became rappresentante. While his crew was capable of violence, I get the impression he was skilled in diplomacy and politics which seem to be the biggest factors in mafia leadership, along with resources (i.e. money, rackets) and of course violence is part of it as well.

Have any Chicago sources mentioned the 1931 meeting(s) chaired by Capone to establish peace in the LA mafia family? Bompensiero describes this, saying he and Dragna visited Chicago and this led to the Ardizzone murder in LA. The timeline makes sense, as Ardizzone was killed in October and the meeting supposedly took place not long before this, when Capone was official boss on the street. A St. Louis figure (John Mirabella, who also attended the 1928 Cleveland meeting) attended as well for whatever reason, so maybe these meetings were larger in scope or involved representatives of different mafia groups (i.e. not just Capone) to help settle the LA problem. Either way, it's an example of Chicago/midwest having political influence in California fairly early.

--

Re: the English brothers, I meant street connections since you've done so much work on that side of things. I've found a lot of continuity with certain Sicilian villages/areas, but I've got little clue how they connect (or don't connect) when it comes to activities and crews later on. I couldn't find much info on LaMonica but he's listed as a member in some places -- any info on him and is there any overlap with the English brothers?

--

Going back to Chicago Heights, Phil Piazza and Joe Martino from Caccamo were leaders of Chicago Heights around the same period that their Caccamesi paesans Stefano Monastero and Nicasio Landolina were boss and underboss of Pittsburgh. Phil Piazza's wife was a Landolina and he traveled to the US with a Landolina. Records indicate Piazza had a brother-in-law named Nicasio Landolina but it doesn't appear to be the Pittsburgh underboss though it could indicate a connection.

Piazza would be murdered in 1926, while Martino, Monastero, and Landolina would all be murdered within the next few years. While the murders of the Caccamesi in Chicago Heights and Pittsburgh are often considered local affairs, it seems like a heavy coincidence that all of these Caccamesi mafia leaders were wiped out nationally during the same period. As we have seen with other Chicago disputes (i.e. Aiello / Capone), there was a definite local aspect but national politics played an important role, too. You have to wonder if the Caccamesi had some kind of falling out with the national mafia leadership in the mid-late 1920s that contributed to their collective demise.

A Sam Monastero/Monistero was killed in Chicago in 1930, allegedly an Aiello ally. Can't determine if he's from Caccamo like the other Monasteros, but Stefano did have a brother named Salvatore who I haven't been able to trace. Stefano Monastero's father was Pietro, who was one of the mafiosi executed in New Orleans in 1891.

No clue how many of them were officially members, but I have the following Chicago / Chicago Heights figures all having heritage from Caccamo:
Charles Costello
Salvatore "Sam" Costello
Salvatore "Sam" Geraci
Joseph Guzzino
Giuseppe "Joe" Martino
Filippo "Phil" Piazza
Giovanni "John" Piazza
Pietro Zeranti
Sebastiano Zeranti

Anyway, good discussion. I appreciate going back and forth to explore some of the possibilities.

[Villain]

Last thought on Ricca -- it sounds like he was a Chicago associate which would have made it necessary for the Chicago leadership to induct him pre-Capone unless they "released" him to Capone. When Al Capone was given approval to induct ten members for his decina, anyone who was on record as an associate of Chicago would have been off-limits without approval from the local leadership (and it does sound like Capone followed mafia protocol when it came to the formalities). Because Capone was a Masseria associate and then a Masseria capodecina, I wonder if others in Capone's inner circle were also considered official Masseria associates. I assume Torrio continued to be a Masseria associate after moving to Chicago given his relationship to Yale and the Masseria group.

I see two versions regarding Ricca...

The first one is, lets say that Esposito was a soldier and Ricca was his associate. In 1928 Esposito was eliminated and Capone was inducted into the Mafia with the ability to make his own people. So if Ricca was just an associate under the late Esposito, then its natural for him to be made by Capone.

The second version is, lets say both Esposito and Ricca were made members, but if Ricca worked for Esposito then that makes the old man what? Caporegime? Crew boss? Lots of confusion in this second version...maybe they worked side by side, with Esposito being the owner of a restaurant and Ricca was the waiter lol ....just saying, who knows?!

Also before Espositos demise, first they had to remove one of Esposito’s right hand men and also a brother-in-law Phil Leonatti or Leonetti, who in February, 1928, was shot to death in his cigar store on West Taylor St. Maybe this fella was also a made guy, we dont know...same goes for Frank DeLaurentis...

The close Capone / Ricca relationship and some other pieces that have surfaced about Capone's relationship with Chicago family figures shows that he was friendly with some of the local group and that must have helped him when he transferred to Chicago and became rappresentante. While his crew was capable of violence, I get the impression he was skilled in diplomacy and politics which seem to be the biggest factors in mafia leadership, along with resources (i.e. money, rackets) and of course violence is part of it as well.

Previously i forgot to tell you that there is a photo of Merlo, Colosimo and Torrio, probably taken right before Colosimos demise in 1920, meaning they were obviously associated with the Mafia in Chicago.

Capone arrived in Chicago in 1919, and story goes that he was brought by Torrio and Gaetano Ricci aka Tony Goebbels. I dont know what period Ricci arrived in Chicago or returned to NY, but he probably returned sometime around the early 1920s, since one of Torrios top guys Robert Vanella returned to NY in 1921.


Theres also another file which is more specific

Ricca arrived on August 10, 1920 and obtained entry in the U.S. through Ellis Island under the alias Paolo Maglio. Few days before his arrival, a real one Paolo Maglio already entered the U.S., a situation which will cause a lot of problems for Ricca decades later. In New York, Ricca was welcomed by one Gennaro Calabrese, a friend of the family and Ricca immediately took an occupation as a restaurant manager at a joint in Brooklyn which was owned by the Calabrese family. Esposito also did similar things in Brooklyn before coming to Chicago.

It seems that by 1922, Ricca was in Chicago since he received legitimate employment at the Dante Movie Theatre at 815 W. Taylor St. on the city’s Near West Side. By 1924, he was with Esposito and worked as a waiter in Espositos restaurants Bella Napoli or the Milano Cafe, while Volpe was allegedly the manager. This was later confirmed by one Capone associate and city sealer Dan Serritela who in turn allegedly met Ricca at that same restaurant.

Espositos joints were gathering places for all kinds of gangsters and political bosses and so i believe that sometime between 1924 and 1926 Capone and Ricca met eachother. Story goes that after the assassination attempt of Torrio in 1926, Ricca was seen working at the Hawthorne Hotel at 4823 22nd Street, Cicero; a known Capone headquarters, as the hotel’s manager. Lots of hotel managers in only few places during those days lol

Many old mob researchers are pointing out that Ricca started his career with the Capones at the Lexington Hotel which is false because Capone wasn’t using that hotel until two years later or 1928. Ricca and Capone obviously knew each other at least two years prior of that. Ricca was married in January, 1927, and since Capone was his best man, meaning these guys obviously had contacts at the beginning of 1926 or maybe even 1925.

I believe they were the ones behind Lombardos and Espositos murders, and also behind the Aiello and Loverde hits. Ricca and Loverde knew each other but i dont know for how long.

Have any Chicago sources mentioned the 1931 meeting(s) chaired by Capone to establish peace in the LA mafia family? Bompensiero describes this, saying he and Dragna visited Chicago and this led to the Ardizzone murder in LA. The timeline makes sense, as Ardizzone was killed in October and the meeting supposedly took place not long before this, when Capone was official boss on the street. A St. Louis figure (John Mirabella, who also attended the 1928 Cleveland meeting) attended as well for whatever reason, so maybe these meetings were larger in scope or involved representatives of different mafia groups (i.e. not just Capone) to help settle the LA problem. Either way, it's an example of Chicago/midwest having political influence in California fairly early.

Back in the days someone used to talk about these stuff, maybe it was Antiliar i dunno, and I personally dont know much about it. I know Capone went to LA in 1930 and also went to Detriot and allegedly told them to gather or unite in one group, and that he also did similar stuff in Cleveland, and thats it. Although the Fischettis were also closely connected to LA...to Dragna and also to one John Canzoneri or something like that

Re: the English brothers, I meant street connections since you've done so much work on that side of things. I've found a lot of continuity with certain Sicilian villages/areas, but I've got little clue how they connect (or don't connect) when it comes to activities and crews later on. I couldn't find much info on LaMonica but he's listed as a member in some places -- any info on him and is there any overlap with the English brothers?

The only thing i know is that LaMonica allegedly lived at 658 W 31st st, while at the same time Charles English's brother Sam also had huge interests on 31st. Dont know if that means anything to you...

No clue how many of them were officially members, but I have the following Chicago / Chicago Heights figures all having heritage from Caccamo:
Charles Costello
Salvatore "Sam" Costello
Salvatore "Sam" Geraci
Joseph Guzzino
Giuseppe "Joe" Martino
Filippo "Phil" Piazza
Giovanni "John" Piazza
Pietro Zeranti
Sebastiano Zeranti

Great stuff. I think that all of those fellas were members. Didnt know that Guzzino also belonged to this Caccamo group. He was a long time loyalist of Roberto/Ammirato/LaPorte but when the Costellos were removed from scene, Guzzino was the one who inherited their interests in C City and Will County, so maybe he first started with the Costellos?! Same thing goes for Geraci, meaning he was close associate of LaPorte, and I think that later there was a Sam Geraci Jr (probably his son) under Ammiratos and LaPortes regime.

I havent read again Luzis book for some time now but i think that these Costellos, DiGiovannis, Micelis and Zerantis were clans under the previous regime but later switched sides and joined the mainlanders, or maybe they were together since day one...hard to tell...

Good research B, and to tell you the truth this is one of the best threads regarding the Outfit, besides having different thoughts and small conflicts at the beginning. Afterall thats the point of a great discussion by creating opposite opinions at the start, and in the end agreeing and shaking hands like real gentlemen.

[JCB1977]

Gus Alex was said to be on a ruling panel running the family in the early 1970s even though he wasn't Italian or an inducted LCN member.


I think the difference is that the Outfit started out as their own group with their own hierarchy and way of doing things separate from Cosa Nostra. Later on when they were accepted into LCN they adopted some of the LCN rules and traditions but continued to do somethings the way they had before. Though gradually that faded over time. This is different from the other groups who were LCN from the beginning.


Pogo

Great point Pogo. Eerily similar to Cleveland's Milton "Maishe" Rockman, John Scalish's brother in law and chief advisor to all family business and Teamster business. Maishe was as powerful as Lonardo, Liberatore etc.

[Villain]

Gus Alex was said to be on a ruling panel running the family in the early 1970s even though he wasn't Italian or an inducted LCN member.


I think the difference is that the Outfit started out as their own group with their own hierarchy and way of doing things separate from Cosa Nostra. Later on when they were accepted into LCN they adopted some of the LCN rules and traditions but continued to do somethings the way they had before. Though gradually that faded over time. This is different from the other groups who were LCN from the beginning.


Pogo

Great point Pogo. Eerily similar to Cleveland's Milton "Maishe" Rockman, John Scalish's brother in law and chief advisor to all family business and Teamster business. Maishe was as powerful as Lonardo, Liberatore etc.

Btw, was Ruby Kolod a protege of Rockman?

Also something about Rockman's opinion regarding one Chicago front...

[Villain]

Heres another interesting example regarding Alex's influence within the Outfit...

Joe Fusco was old time member of the Capone gang and according to Sam Giancanas own words, Fusco was also a member of Cosa Nostra. His first and main racket was always booze, first selling it illegal during Prohibition, and later he continued selling it through his numerous companies and liquor shops, obviously by muscling in on the competition.

Besides being a member, Fusco also controlled his own crew for the Cicero/South Side mob and besides being involved in the booze business, these fellas also controlled a large cigarette smuggling ring under Fuscos jurisdiction. Ralph and Frank Buglio, Rocco, Vito and Frank DeStefano, all used to work for Fusco.

Fusco was official crew boss sometime until the mid 1960s, when most of his fellas died, ended up in jail or were constantly prosecuted by the goverment. When Giancana took over in 1957, Fusco was still regarded high by the younger generation, mainly because they allegedly considered him one of the smartest criminals in Chicago.

Fusco was also known for being quite agressive in spreading his operations like for example, in January 1962 Chicago Heights member Joe Costello complained to Giancana that Fusco entered his territory and sold his own booze.

Costello also added that his boss Frank LaPorte didnt care at all about the situation. Later Giancana assured Costello that in near future, he will gather everyone to discuss the matter. Now I dont know what went on, since there werent any dead bodies on the streets and none was punished but still...

In October that same year, Fusco had a problem with the Gallo Wine Company, which had threatened to take away Fusco’s account away and give it to the Moran Brothers distributorship.

The Moran Brothers Company was headed by one Outfit associate Mike Romano, a close pal of Paul Ricca and Tony Accardo. One story goes that Giancana was behind the plot and that he allegedly was the one who convinced Ricca and Accardo to push for Romano, while the second story is that Romano did it on his own with the help of his reputation.

Whatever was the truth, Fusco decided to take the problem to his superiors Frank Ferraro and Gus Alex. These two fellas controlled the South Side mob but since Ferraro was the underboss, most of the job fell on Alex.

So Fusco reached to Alex through Jimmy Celano, and asked for help. After hearing the problem, Alex instructed Celano to immediately contact Romano and to advise him to back off and under no circumstances Romano was to entertain any thoughts of taking the Gallo Wine account. Celano called the latter one and told him everything what Alex previously said and so Romano allegedly agreed.

As expected, Fusco continued with his distributorship in Chicago for the Gallo Company but for a price. Besides taking large percentage from Fusco's proceedings, Alex also allegedly took over many of Fuscos illegal interests from around the South Side and gave them to Ralph Pierce.

Fusco being questioned by agents regarding his past and associations with Alex and Ferraro



Regarding the problem between Costello and Fusco


Another file regarding the same problem



Giancana giving straight answer to Costello that Fusco was a member of the Outfit


Alex backing Fusco against Romano


And another one


Some additional info on the non-Italians and Alex

[Wiseguy]

Since this thread is called "Understanding Chicago", I also want to add something about the so called new Outfit or post-70s era

Lets look at the old Outfit as four "crime families" under one top administration, and so by the mid 1990s, three of those "crime families" were finished, dead, adios amigos....

By the late 1970s, the old South Side Mob, or as I want to call it the original Capone crew, was finished and one group from the large West Side faction took over their areas and districts and became the new South Side mob (Buccieri, Torello, LaPietra, Ferriola, Infelice, Monteleone, Caruso Jr, Sarno, DeLaurentis, Cataudella, Inendino).

In reality, the West Side "crime family" took over all of the interests of the old South Side faction but as time passed by, that same particular West Side crew from Cicero and Chinatown which took over the South Side interests, during the following decades slowly became a separate faction from the West Side mob, mainly because of the rising younger generations who possibly "forgot" about their roots.

By the early 1990s, both the old North Side and Chicago Heights "crime families" were finished, and so again, the West Side group (DiFronzo, Andriacchi, Centracchio, Cozzo) took over most of the interests around the North, while the newly created South Side mob kept their interests in certain parts in that same territory such as Lake County, and also took over the Chicago Heights area and all southern suburbs

During that time the leaders of one group from the West Side mob, meaning the Melrose Park crew, eere in jail and by 2006 they were finished, and their interests in both Cicero and MP were mostly absorbed by the leading South Side faction under Sarno and his fellas. After the death of the Aiuppa/Carlisi/Tornabene/Marcello crew, the Sarno group finally had the whole Cicero area for them, something which many of his predecessors tried to do many years before him.

I also believe that by the early or maybe even mid 2010's the Elmwood Park crew also completely closed shop, thus possibly leaving some high level members like Dote in close relationship with the only remaining West Side crew aka Grand Av "crew" under Vena and Spina.

As for the so-called South Side mob, I currently still dont have any opinion because it seems that DeLaurentis is out of the game, same as Cataudella and Caruso Jr, Marino is dead and the only one from the old guard who allegedly is still "active" is Inendino, but still theres no real evidence about this claim. We still have guys like the younger Marino and Nick Ferriola but thats far from being a organization.

Somebody recently floated the idea that any elements still active from Elmwood Park had merged with Grand Avenue. And what was left of the 26th Street crew had lined up with Melrose Park.

As we know, those were the 4 crews the feds mentioned around 2005-2007. But there was also comments by the feds of things being run in "northern and southern sections" and the Outfit being "down to 2 or 3 crews."

4 named crews seems pretty straightforward but, during that time, investigators said they considered the Marcello crew as "running everyrhing." Then Sarno seemed to be running things before he went away.

So, the question is, are there still 4 independent, functioning crews in 2020 like there were 15 years ago? Or have things been even more consolidated?