Vito Genovese the worst boss?

[Angelo Santino]

It could, but I'd argue that everything is always in a state of flux and the way events fall into place can be circumstantial based on the era. Could John Gotti have murdered a boss in broad daylight in any other time were a Commission Case not ongoing? Could Nicky Scarfo broken all the captains and elevated his best friends and relatives in 1972? Probably not.

Joe Bonanno controlled and decided who held what in his Family but that even had its limitations. One of his biggest mistakes was taking his cowboy boot wearing college drop out son out of AZ and sticking him in NY, making him and then promoting him to Consig. This was too much for people like DiGregorio and others who were around just as long as JB.

So every actions comes with a reaction. And these guys, friends or not, are stone opportunists. If you're a rising star who's shorted me several times, I'm gonna put that on the backburner so I can ride your coattails. Then let's say you fall out of favor and the right people hate you, well all of sudden I'm going to join the choir that you're a robbing thief if I see an opportunity to advance myself at your expense.

Also, Family traditions play a factor. The Genoveses were born out of a partnership of powerhouses, it's a working relationship that demands members respect each other but don't overstep boundaries. If there's a problem in the Gens that gets the Consig involved, you could expect a more impartial ruling (if only for the sake of perceived 'honest') then you would under Joe Bonanno. The Bonanno power traditionally rested on one Boss individual and the power flowed down. The only way someone would walk away with half of what they wanted would involve them being influential enough that to go against would surely be an issue.

[B.]

Related to this subject, thought people would be interested in knowing what Genovese's peers thought of him, as recorded on their office bugs:

- Ray Patriarca praises Genovese, describing him as a "good boss". Patriarca maintained a close relationship with Tommy Eboli as a product of his relationship with Genovese.

- Magaddino speaks very highly of Genovese and claims that both he and Genovese trust each other with their lives. On the other hand, Magaddino claims Charlie Luciano "double-crossed" Genovese (curious what he means) and also has a very low opinion of Frank Costello.

[Frank]

Related to this subject, thought people would be interested in knowing what Genovese's peers thought of him, as recorded on their office bugs:

- Ray Patriarca praises Genovese, describing him as a "good boss". Patriarca maintained a close relationship with Tommy Eboli as a product of his relationship with Genovese.

- Magaddino speaks very highly of Genovese and claims that both he and Genovese trust each other with their lives. On the other hand, Magaddino claims Charlie Luciano "double-crossed" Genovese (curious what he means) and also has a very low opinion of Frank Costello.

Nice info. And yes, did Maggaddino mean doublecrossed when Vito was busted and sent to prison for the rest of his life, or in an earlier time period?

[B.]

Related to this subject, thought people would be interested in knowing what Genovese's peers thought of him, as recorded on their office bugs:

- Ray Patriarca praises Genovese, describing him as a "good boss". Patriarca maintained a close relationship with Tommy Eboli as a product of his relationship with Genovese.

- Magaddino speaks very highly of Genovese and claims that both he and Genovese trust each other with their lives. On the other hand, Magaddino claims Charlie Luciano "double-crossed" Genovese (curious what he means) and also has a very low opinion of Frank Costello.

Nice info. And yes, did Maggaddino mean doublecrossed when Vito was busted and sent to prison for the rest of his life, or in an earlier time period?

That's what I wonder. Luciano's connections to the FBN and narcotics trade are very suspicious to say the least.

[Villain]

Related to this subject, thought people would be interested in knowing what Genovese's peers thought of him, as recorded on their office bugs:

- Ray Patriarca praises Genovese, describing him as a "good boss". Patriarca maintained a close relationship with Tommy Eboli as a product of his relationship with Genovese.

- Magaddino speaks very highly of Genovese and claims that both he and Genovese trust each other with their lives. On the other hand, Magaddino claims Charlie Luciano "double-crossed" Genovese (curious what he means) and also has a very low opinion of Frank Costello.

Nice info. And yes, did Maggaddino mean doublecrossed when Vito was busted and sent to prison for the rest of his life, or in an earlier time period?

That's what I wonder. Luciano's connections to the FBN and narcotics trade are very suspicious to say the least.

To tell you the truth, it is quite possible that he set up more than few people...or prepared them a "surprise party" which in fact is/was a method used by various oc organizations so they can remove their rivals without killing them. I have stories regarding members from different oc organizations who simply used their connections in the police force or government, just so they can "eliminate" some specific or certain rivals, not the whole organization. In plane words, they used their contacts so they can reach the top or keep their interests, so maybe Luciano did the same thing...just saying

Also besides some of the already known general talk that they allegedly hated each other, still story goes that Outfit bosses Giancana, Accardo and Ricca all respected both Vito and Costello very much and also had high opinion regarding both of em...the only two guys that they really trash talked were Bonanno and Balistrieri and maybe some other bosses who came from the west coast, but that was that...i personally never came across some info that everyone allegedly hated Vito

[bert]

In NYC Mafia using cops of feds to put away rival would cause your own people to turn on you and even kill you, be it a boss or a soldier. Genovese had to be liked or respected by the captains he inherited, although his main guy Anthony Strollo was said to be hated by a lot of people. Obviously Costello did not like him and that went both ways. A later named Ianuzzi wrote a fiction book back in the 1970's where the characters were modeled after Costello and Gigante and in it the Gigante character was a bumbling idiot leader, and the bad guy. Since the author had represented a lot of Mafia members in cases, he must have heard or gotten close to a few who gave him the idea that is how they were seen. I think Genovese was too quick to kill, and in those days a boss could do it easier, no way him or Luciano gave guys up to the cops though.

[HairyKnuckles]

I think Genovese was too quick to kill, and in those days a boss could do it easier,

He was very trigger happy. He´s up there with Albert Anastasia. Read somewhere that Vito Genovese was the only man Anastasia was afraid of.

[Villain]

I think Genovese was too quick to kill, and in those days a boss could do it easier,

He was very trigger happy. He´s up there with Albert Anastasia. Read somewhere that Vito Genovese was the only man Anastasia was afraid of.

I think that it depends from the time period....for example Capone and his gang were quite trigger happy but that was the only way to take control of the second largest city at the time and Capone unknowingly "sacrificed" himself because of that. As for the 40s and 50s, i think that it was too late for such methods...and thats why bosses like Costello and Ricca were well regarded in those days, both from the underworld and upper class

[HairyKnuckles]

I think Genovese was too quick to kill, and in those days a boss could do it easier,

He was very trigger happy. He´s up there with Albert Anastasia. Read somewhere that Vito Genovese was the only man Anastasia was afraid of.

I think that it depends from the time period....for example Capone and his gang were quite trigger happy but that was the only way to take control of the second largest city at the time and Capone unknowingly "sacrificed" himself because of that. As for the 40s and 50s, i think that it was too late for such methods...and thats why bosses like Costello and Ricca were well regarded in those days, both from the underworld and upper class

You are right. I´m so NY oriented that the early Chicago mob history totally slipped my mind.

[B.]

Antiliar has some great insight into Luciano's relationship with the FBN. Maybe he'll weigh in if he sees this.

There are, I believe, at least three examples of Luciano sending word to the US about someone informing to the FBN and requesting their murder. I recently saw reference to a lesser known example of this. Personally I believe there was a two-way street between Luciano and his FBN contact(s) in that they exchanged information. Luciano's prior cooperation with the government during WWII lends itself to this.

It does make you wonder what Magaddino meant when he said Luciano "double-crossed" Genovese. I can't think of any obvious ways Luciano would have double-crossed Genovese in the 1930s or 1940s unless it somehow involved Genovese going on the lam to Italy, but Genovese retained his title and influence remotely in Italy, then stepped right back into active leadership when he returned to the US. There is no clear double-cross that I can see through that period.

According to Valachi, Luciano was still the official boss until the early 1950s and retained influence over the family. I'd be curious if Luciano supported Genovese's takeover from Costello (which appears to have been supported by influential Commission members Lucchese and Magaddino as well), then played some role in Genovese's arrest. I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist here, but given Luciano's suspicious relationship with the FBN, it does make Magaddino's comment interesting in light of Genovese's narcotics arrest.

[bert]

I think Genovese was too quick to kill, and in those days a boss could do it easier,

He was very trigger happy. He´s up there with Albert Anastasia. Read somewhere that Vito Genovese was the only man Anastasia was afraid of.

I think that it depends from the time period....for example Capone and his gang were quite trigger happy but that was the only way to take control of the second largest city at the time and Capone unknowingly "sacrificed" himself because of that. As for the 40s and 50s, i think that it was too late for such methods...and thats why bosses like Costello and Ricca were well regarded in those days, both from the underworld and upper class

A question Villain, do you think the wars between the Irish and Italian mobs over rackets, plus the groups of mixed mobs also in the picture contributed to the crazy amount of killings in Chicago as opposed to New York? Thinking about it now, New York and a few other cities did good job of working together with other gangs, or at least better than Chicago. Chicago of the 1920's -1930's was worse than Philadelphia in the 1980's.

[bert]

Antiliar has some great insight into Luciano's relationship with the FBN. Maybe he'll weigh in if he sees this.

There are, I believe, at least three examples of Luciano sending word to the US about someone informing to the FBN and requesting their murder. I recently saw reference to a lesser known example of this. Personally I believe there was a two-way street between Luciano and his FBN contact(s) in that they exchanged information. Luciano's prior cooperation with the government during WWII lends itself to this.

It does make you wonder what Magaddino meant when he said Luciano "double-crossed" Genovese. I can't think of any obvious ways Luciano would have double-crossed Genovese in the 1930s or 1940s unless it somehow involved Genovese going on the lam to Italy, but Genovese retained his title and influence Italy, then stepped right back into active leadership when he returned to the US. There is no clear double-cross that I can see through that period.

According to Valachi, Luciano was still the official boss until the early 1950s and retained influence over the family. I'd be curious if Luciano supported Genovese's takeover from Costello (which appears to have been supported by influential Commission members Lucchese and Magaddino as well), then played some role in Genovese's arrest. I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist here, but given Luciano's suspicious relationship with the FBN, it does make Magaddino's comment interesting in light of Genovese's narcotics arrest.

One thought on the double cross could be if Genovese thought or was led to believe he had total control of all Luciano's Captains, while instead they would oppose him on things or see what Luciano had to say on important matters?

[B.]

Magaddino's praise and trust in Vito Genovese also confirms something from some of his other transcripts -- in several conversations, he spoke about someone he called "tempesta" (storm) whom he despised and was incredibly disruptive among the national mafia leadership in the 1950s (hence the nickname). "Tempesta" was closely associated with Costello and I had narrowed it down to either Vito Genovese or Albert Anastasia. It's clear now that "tempesta" is Albert Anastasia and his comments about "tempesta" make much more sense now that we can rule out Genovese.

[MichaelGiovanni]

Magaddino's praise and trust in Vito Genovese also confirms something from some of his other transcripts -- in several conversations, he spoke about someone he called "tempesta" (storm) whom he despised and was incredibly disruptive among the national mafia leadership in the 1950s (hence the nickname). "Tempesta" was closely associated with Costello and I had narrowed it down to either Vito Genovese or Albert Anastasia. It's clear now that "tempesta" is Albert Anastasia and his comments about "tempesta" make much more sense now that we can rule out Genovese.

I hate to quote Ernest Volkmam from a documentary but similarly to ‘tempesta’ he claims Anastasia was also given the nickname ‘Il terremoto’ which means ‘the earthquake’

[B.]

Another things from the tapes -- Vito Genovese became boss via election. Not a surprise, as this is the protocol, but it shows there was some political finesse involved and he had support beyond his own immediate faction.