Vito Genovese the worst boss?

[chin_gigante]

The thing about Valachi is; weve had threads about what Family he really was.... Bonanno, Genovese or Lukes.

I think the consesus was somehow the Lukes...
Even tho he was made by the Bonannos
And said he was in the Genovese

Valachi was made by Maranzano because he led the wartime coalition (Bonanno and Luchese families) against Masseria. Prior to this Valachi had been an associate of the Gagliano group. In 1931, Valachi was transferred to the Genovese family

[JeremyTheJew]

The thing about Valachi is; weve had threads about what Family he really was.... Bonanno, Genovese or Lukes.

I think the consesus was somehow the Lukes...
Even tho he was made by the Bonannos
And said he was in the Genovese

Valachi was made by Maranzano because he led the wartime coalition (Bonanno and Luchese families) against Masseria. Prior to this Valachi had been an associate of the Gagliano group. In 1931, Valachi was transferred to the Genovese family

I understand Maranzano leading the Castellmare faction, but i thought it went deeper then that with Bonanno becoming his GF.

Do we know why hw transferred to Genovese Family??

[Angelo Santino]

Genovese is not responsible for the McClellan hearings. The FBI at the time was looking to politicize the Mafia to receive funding and beat out their rivals- the FBN who long knew about the Mafia. Had Valachi not testified, perhaps one of the Gallo brothers would have and people today would use that along with their Sopranos "glorified crew" talking point.

Vito Genovese, prior to being boss, was influential from the 20's to the 30's, then the 50's up until his incarceration. When he returned to the US, a banquet was thrown and everyone, including Costello, was paying him respect. So much so that the FBI questioned if Gen was the new "top guy." And aside from The Last Testament of Luciano which has Lucky beating the shit out of Genovese in Cuba out of rage for siding with the fascists, there's nothing to suggest the men were at odds that early on, in fact Genovese was said to have Luciano's support for boss.

[maxiestern11]

Correct Chris, and in fact Vito had been the key underboss for decades. VERY well respected and FEARED.
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His Napolitano contingent within and outside the family loved him. He seems to have been a Camorrrista at heart and most always favored neopolitans. Lot of guys made money with Vito.
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He just happened to seize power when the tide was starting to turn for CN in general. Had it been a different era these things probably wouldn’t have happened.
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As far as for Valachi? That I don’t know. He WAS Napolitano, a worker, a bit dumb, and on first view—- loyal!
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But in actuality maybe he WAS a longtime rat. Before he publicly turned. The FBN claims that he’d given info for years.... if that’s true, and Vito and the boys found out. Then that’s why things played out the way they did. Right? That would make sense.

[Villain]

Didn't Vito met Mussolini personally or something like that, like his son or son-in-law I don't remember? And on top of that, we have Genovese associate Bugsy Siegel allegedly wanting to kill Mussolini while screwing some countess in Italy, probably at the same time while Vito was there lol I really don't know if these stories are true

[Angelo Santino]

Mob guys are no different than the rest of the population- each are free to have their own political affiliation/beliefs. In fact, Joe Bonanno and his admin members seemed to be at odds politically, didn't appear to interrupt their crime family duties. Vito Cascio Ferro was even a part of something or other.

From what the facts appear to be, Gen was under from 1931 and kept his position while in Italy, reclaiming it upon his return. If that is indeed the case (and apart from Moretti in an acting position I've seen nothing new to indicate a strong person in that position during that time) it would speak to A) his power and B) how the Gen family conducted itself at that time. As per Gentile, in 1936 when Luciano was taken off the streets, Genovese, by default, became the top guy but it's not stated that he was designated Acting Boss or if that interim position even existed.

Remember, the original role of an Underboss is to be an aid and take over in the event of a Boss' absence, akin to a VP. Acting positions where an Underboss becomes acting and someone else becomes Acting Under really didn't become a thing until the 50's. But then the Genoveses were a 300-450 man group so it makes sense why that would happen there as opposed to a smaller 30 member group. And from 1935-1946, Costello as the sole leader on the street, might not have been anything beyond Consigliere. We can call him an Acting Boss now as we have a clear understanding of the term but I'm not sure it existed back then. Which could further explain why the crew bosses were given such a free reign and were akin to mini-bosses themselves, as opposed to say the Bonannos where everyone served at Joe's behest as supreme lord.

I don't put much emphasis on the compaesanismo post-30's, by this point most guys seen themselves as Italian and aside from the Sicilian mafia aristocrats like Bonanno, most of your guys (like Valachi) were New York American renditions, which is why Our Thing or Our Organization conveyed an all-Italian inclusive. Genovese, like Anastasia and other non-Sicilians who assumed positions of power, conducted themselves in accordance with the mafia politics of the day, they weren't looking to Camorra'cize anything. And Genovese's time in Italy recorded no contact with criminal organizations, only black market activities related to the war.

[aleksandrored]

So Vito Genovese was not a bad boss, on the contrary, he was a respected mobster in the 1920s and 30s, and a good boss in the 1950s, and I didn't know about it not being his fault Valachi audiences, thanks for the info fellas.

[Pete]

Allways wondered why the fam wasnt labeled as Luciano Fam

Because Genovese took over and renamed it his own family same as Colombo did

The old Bonanno family is now the Massino family. It happens

[UTC]

Probably the biggest pervert they ever had anyway.

[Angelo Santino]

So Vito Genovese was not a bad boss, on the contrary, he was a respected mobster in the 1920s and 30s, and a good boss in the 1950s, and I didn't know about it not being his fault Valachi audiences, thanks for the info fellas.

I honestly don't know how to answer whether someone is a "good boss" or a "bad boss" because what specific standard are we basing it on? If a "good boss" is someone who rose through the ranks and has a long history of affiliation then Vito is your guy. If on the other hand we're basing "good boss" on how long someone lasted in that position then Vito's not it.

Valachi, like most soldiers, were bitter towards their bosses. To be fair, Vito's actions most likely scared Valachi and sent him to the feds. But he was not the only informant they had at their disposal. He was selected due to his longevity, one of the Gallo bros was willing to testify but his affiliation didn't go back to 1930.

I often wonder what Valachi thought of things in the final years before his death as informants who came after him like Fratianno were able to cut very nice deals and die free, whereas Valachi aged and died in his cell.

[aleksandrored]

So Vito Genovese was not a bad boss, on the contrary, he was a respected mobster in the 1920s and 30s, and a good boss in the 1950s, and I didn't know about it not being his fault Valachi audiences, thanks for the info fellas.

I honestly don't know how to answer whether someone is a "good boss" or a "bad boss" because what specific standard are we basing it on? If a "good boss" is someone who rose through the ranks and has a long history of affiliation then Vito is your guy. If on the other hand we're basing "good boss" on how long someone lasted in that position then Vito's not it.

Valachi, like most soldiers, were bitter towards their bosses. To be fair, Vito's actions most likely scared Valachi and sent him to the feds. But he was not the only informant they had at their disposal. He was selected due to his longevity, one of the Gallo bros was willing to testify but his affiliation didn't go back to 1930.

I often wonder what Valachi thought of things in the final years before his death as informants who came after him like Fratianno were able to cut very nice deals and die free, whereas Valachi aged and died in his cell.

When I refer to "bad boss" I mean Genovese's fame, Apalachin, Valachi and even Luciano's Last Testament, since it always seems like Genovese was a bad boss who ruined everything, but I see now that all of that doesn't he goes beyond myth and that he might have been even better than Costello (I say "maybe" because I read that Costello in the 1950s wanted to be more of a businessman, while Genovese was a more street guy and had more family support).

[Wiseguy]

The old Bonanno family is now the Massino family. It happens

Pffff....that "Massino family" thing lasted about 5 minutes and went out the door once he flipped.

[axx]

But in actuality maybe he WAS a longtime rat. Before he publicly turned. The FBN claims that he’d given info for years.... if that’s true, and Vito and the boys found out. Then that’s why things played out the way they did. Right? That would make sense.

That's the first time I heard he was an informer before the arrest, is this confirmed? Something tells me if he was a rat and had suspicions his familiy were on to him he wouldn't write letters to Lucchese and seek audience with Vito, but would've ran straight to the feds. Especially after knowing all too well how his buddy the Gap ended up. Somehow I believe that the guy was framed by his own as Vito was hungry for blood of whoever was responsible for his arrest and they collectively implicated Valachi. Or I'm just sentimental to the guy, he didn't have it easy in his life, even though it was the life he chose.

[Villain]

So Vito Genovese was not a bad boss, on the contrary, he was a respected mobster in the 1920s and 30s, and a good boss in the 1950s, and I didn't know about it not being his fault Valachi audiences, thanks for the info fellas.

I honestly don't know how to answer whether someone is a "good boss" or a "bad boss" because what specific standard are we basing it on? If a "good boss" is someone who rose through the ranks and has a long history of affiliation then Vito is your guy. If on the other hand we're basing "good boss" on how long someone lasted in that position then Vito's not it.

Valachi, like most soldiers, were bitter towards their bosses. To be fair, Vito's actions most likely scared Valachi and sent him to the feds. But he was not the only informant they had at their disposal. He was selected due to his longevity, one of the Gallo bros was willing to testify but his affiliation didn't go back to 1930.

I often wonder what Valachi thought of things in the final years before his death as informants who came after him like Fratianno were able to cut very nice deals and die free, whereas Valachi aged and died in his cell.

When I refer to "bad boss" I mean Genovese's fame, Apalachin, Valachi and even Luciano's Last Testament, since it always seems like Genovese was a bad boss who ruined everything, but I see now that all of that doesn't he goes beyond myth and that he might have been even better than Costello (I say "maybe" because I read that Costello in the 1950s wanted to be more of a businessman, while Genovese was a more street guy and had more family support).

Giancana allegedly respected Vito to an extent and story goes that he leaned more towards Costello. Similar story is with Ricca, meaning he and Vito went all the way back but Ricca had more profitable relationship with Costello especially in the gambling and coin machine rackets, and i also think that Costello played a major role in the corruption regarding the early release of the Outfits top bosses, including Ricca. During the late 50s, when Vito told Giancana that they should harmonize, he probably meant that they should be more loyal to him, or maybe he was talking about the narcotics trade lol

[maxiestern11]

But in actuality maybe he WAS a longtime rat. Before he publicly turned. The FBN claims that he’d given info for years.... if that’s true, and Vito and the boys found out. Then that’s why things played out the way they did. Right? That would make sense.

That's the first time I heard he was an informer before the arrest, is this confirmed? Something tells me if he was a rat and had suspicions his familiy were on to him he wouldn't write letters to Lucchese and seek audience with Vito, but would've ran straight to the feds. Especially after knowing all too well how his buddy the Gap ended up. Somehow I believe that the guy was framed by his own as Vito was hungry for blood of whoever was responsible for his arrest and they collectively implicated Valachi. Or I'm just sentimental to the guy, he didn't have it easy in his life, even though it was the life he chose.

The story goes that supposedly he’d given info to the FBN earlier I think. But hadn’t given any info on LCN members. SUPPOSEDLY... but as the saying goes “if your a rat your a rat”! And that obviously Vito and the boys did think he’s turned by that time..... but who knows. The FBN played dirty in those days (as the DEA does today). They could have put out word that he was bad just to create the situation that arose. Making guys think he’d gone bad so he would turn to them after his friends turned on him. It consigned to history.... we’ll never know for sure