Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Pogo The Clown]

Ladies and gentlemen. We’ve now come full circle.
The FBI are the see-all, know-all, only trustworthy body in this dynamic.
To:
The FBI are lazy framers who overhype to justify their jobs, taking the easy routes rather than tackling the hard, disinterested in the truth and with little motivation to find it. Lazy government bureaucrats prone to all sorts of human failures.

Good god man. Does your own hypocrisy weigh even a little?

I never said they weren't good at their job of investigating and prosecuting LCN.


The whole premise of you and others on here is that the Feds know there is an active viable family in Buffalo and are not only ignoring but lying about it for 15 years (either that or they ar so bird brained stupid that they don't know about it even when everyone on the internet does). I'm just pointing out how if they are going to lie it would be in the opposite direction because their whole self interest is based on it.


Hell I don't even need to speculate on it since we have a former prosecutor and journalist in Lee Coppola plainly saying that several LE officials told him as much back in the late 1990s. Back then it was LE overhyping to keep a near death group alive. 20 years later it is a few people on an Internet forum.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

1 Interesting that we keep hearing Rochester in accordance with the Bonannos:

1 Both Valentis were listed in 63 as Bonanno members.
2 The above
3 The so-called 1999 Boss's involvement with the Bonannos.

2 1965 Magaddino states he's been in Canada 45 years:

Magaddino arrived in Buffalo in 1922. It could mean Buffalo's been in Canada since he was boss or it could mean he's claiming credit for expanding into Buffalo. It sounded like the latter and 45 was an approximation.

Another point about him "taking in Morello" is that it would have occured within the first two years of Magaddino's tenure. The sitdowns in NYC began happening in 1922 through 1923 and by 1924 everything was hunky dorey. Four years later, D'Aquila is murdered, Masseria take's the BOB position, the rest is history.

[Pogo The Clown]

A few Rochester members also show up on some Bonanno lists from the 1980s.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

A few Rochester members also show up on some Bonanno lists from the 1980s.


Pogo

That's interesting. I wonder why? I wonder if JD has looked into this?

A few weeks back I realized I knew very little about upstate NY I didn't realize I knew less than nothing. This is a whole other world.

[Pogo The Clown]

I think it was just outdated info that slipped through the cracks and made in on the list. For example Rene Piccarretto shows up on the Bonanno list from 1988 in 25 YAV but in the same hearings he is listed as the imprisoned Rochester Consigliere and LE already knew about his Rochester membership as early the early 1970s.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

B. I was doing some speculation re: Magaddino's bringing in over 100 members in 43 years and your theory about other groups in upstate NY being possibly absorbed, when do you think that this possibly occurred? Magaddino's claim that he's been in Canada (including Montreal amazingly) for 45 years. (This guy had quite the full plate from 1918-1922: the Good Killers case, his relocation to Buffalo, his becoming boss there within a year, declining the former boss of bosses, the northern expansion into Canada.)

Buffalo historians credit Buffalo's close proximity to Canada and their ability to supply high quality liquor (as opposed to that stepped-on New York shit, nucka) to NYC. Such an arrangement in the early to mid 1920's would have ramifications for any theoretical Families in between. If there wasn't an arrangement early on then certainly no later than the 1930's. (I wonder if Alabama's dissolve and Newark's absorption were in any way connected to something larger, some agreed upon reconsolidation, one that may include Upstate NY theoretically going to Buffalo.

Going through my early Rochester notes, mafia activity or not, both that city and Buffalo were joined when it comes to Italo crime. People bounced between both cities and there were crime rings between them. I would - and I may end up being wrong if more info on this surfaces - wonder if Rochester was under Buffalo from at least the 1910's. Rochester is connected to plenty of other cities too, but this coinciding with their shared heritage moves the needle towards that direction, speculation-wise. Arguably the same for Niagara Falls. That leaves Utica, Toronto.. and Montreal? He made it sound like Montreal was his in the FBI files.

[Angelo Santino]

I think it was just outdated info that slipped through the cracks and made in on the list. For example Rene Piccarretto shows up on the Bonanno list from 1988 in 25 YAV but in the same hearings he is listed as the imprisoned Rochester Consigliere and LE already knew about his Rochester membership as early the early 1970s.


Pogo

Do you think it's possible when Rochester broke off of Buffalo that the Bonannos were supportive and they became their NYC rep? And after the organization fell, perhaps they continued that relationship with the remnant crumbs. Could explain why they labeled him the (former) Consigliere (of a defunct group) who ultimately "was with" the Bonannos?

Not that I'm drawing up a conspiracy but it is interesting how the Bonannos influence other groups, first with Schiro members going to SF, Buf, Det, Philly, Boston; the 1960's disputes Bonanno stirred up and their involvement with the remnants of the declined upstate NY groups in the last 30 years.

[JCB1977]

Some Rochester Black Hand History

In 1907, alleged Black Hand boss Luigi Di Vito was shot by Charles Lodato. Lodato received a black hand letter threatening him with death. Di Vito also threatened to kill special policeman, Alexander Elliott.

In 1916, Giovanni Gianio, a tailor and former Black Hand Leader whose headquarters was in Rochester was convicted in NYC for stealing $200 off Salvatore Suranni. When the judge was passing sentence, he stated that he had learned that Gianio had extensive operations in all of Western NY.

In 1922, 8 Black Hand leaders were arrested for death threats though blackmail: Raffaele Greco (Boss), Sam Mortarano (Treasurer), Salvatore Latona Sr. and Jr., Stefano Tisa, Michele Giordino, Salvatore Giunda and Michele Spinelli. Rochester Black Hand Headquarters was said to be on Hartford St.

In 1923, Antonio Montesanto was granted a new trial for the murder of Carmelo Gennevola, a butcher in 1921. Montesanto fled to NYC and was arrested upon his return to Rochester in January of 1922. Carmelo Feraci was arrested with Montesanto for the murder of Gennevola. Montesanto pled guilty to manslaughter in May of 1924 and was sentenced to 8-18 years and is projected to be released after 5 years. Carmelo Feraci was sentenced to serve from 7-16 years

In 1925, prominent black hand member James Lamarco was shot and killed while he was sleeping in bed next to his wife. Police stated that Lamarco was the victim of a black hand feud with a rival faction.

In 1925, Frank Granata, arrested by Rochester Police and said to be a Black Hand leader was sent back to prison in Auburn. He was convicted of murder in 1921 and spent 3 years at Auburn prison after a 10-20 year sentence. He was sent back for a 10 year sentence.

[Stroccos]

I think it was just outdated info that slipped through the cracks and made in on the list. For example Rene Piccarretto shows up on the Bonanno list from 1988 in 25 YAV but in the same hearings he is listed as the imprisoned Rochester Consigliere and LE already knew about his Rochester membership as early the early 1970s.


Pogo

Do you think it's possible when Rochester broke off of Buffalo that the Bonannos were supportive and they became their NYC rep? And after the organization fell, perhaps they continued that relationship with the remnant crumbs. Could explain why they labeled him the (former) Consigliere (of a defunct group) who ultimately "was with" the Bonannos?

Not that I'm drawing up a conspiracy but it is interesting how the Bonannos influence other groups, first with Schiro members going to SF, Buf, Det, Philly, Boston; the 1960's disputes Bonanno stirred up and their involvement with the remnants of the declined upstate NY groups in the last 30 years.

the bonnanos were involded getting valenti out of Rochester ,

[NickleCity]

1 Interesting that we keep hearing Rochester in accordance with the Bonannos:

1 Both Valentis were listed in 63 as Bonanno members.
2 The above
3 The so-called 1999 Boss's involvement with the Bonannos.

2 1965 Magaddino states he's been in Canada 45 years:

Magaddino arrived in Buffalo in 1922. It could mean Buffalo's been in Canada since he was boss or it could mean he's claiming credit for expanding into Buffalo. It sounded like the latter and 45 was an approximation.

Another point about him "taking in Morello" is that it would have occured within the first two years of Magaddino's tenure. The sitdowns in NYC began happening in 1922 through 1923 and by 1924 everything was hunky dorey. Four years later, D'Aquila is murdered, Masseria take's the BOB position, the rest is history.

As I read Iced and Business and Blood I was struck with how much overlap their was between Magaddino, Bonanno, Toronto, and Montreal. We know Magaddino and Bonanno weren't very fond of each other and it looks like each were trying to exert some kind of control in each other territories all while working together. Here are a couple of quotes that I marked when reading a while back.

From the book Iced Schneider suggests one at least some believed Magaddino was trying to extend his influence to Montreal when Paolo Violi was sent there...

In 1963, Paolo left Ontario for Montreal, supposedly on the orders of Luppino so he would not clash with another ambitious Hamilton mobster named John Papalia. Accounts differ on whether Magaddino approved of Violi coming within the orbit of the Montreal mafia and, by extension, the Bonanno Family. While it is possible that Magaddino may have felt betrayed by the move — and was reportedly persuaded to spare Paolo’s life by Luppino — some also believe that he backed the decision to send Violi to Quebec and may even have instigated it to provide him with a toehold in the province.

Then their is this from Peter Edward's Business and Blood. It appears Magaddino considered Montreal "My House" according to Luppino. Of course Magaddino had a penchant for overstatement!

Magaddino heard that Bill Bonanno told Cotroni at the meeting that Montreal belonged to his father, Joe Bonanno. Vic the Egg’s response? He just sheepishly listened to Bonanno’s arrogance.

It was bad enough that Bonanno would say something so stupid, but for Cotroni to say nothing in Magaddino’s defence was unacceptable. How could Magaddino remain calm when he heard of such a slur? And why hadn’t Cotroni told him beforehand about the meeting? Had Bonanno and the visiting New Yorkers not been arrested shortly afterwards, Magaddino could have started a small war over the slight. In Don Stefano’s eyes, Montreal was his territory and Cotroni commited nothing less than an act of treason by meeting with the Americans there without his permission. How he came to the conclusion that Quebec was his turf was anyone’s guess, but he considered this to be an absolute truth. And in his mind, he must know anything of significance that happened there. As Luppino recalled his words: “I don’t care what others do, all I want to know is what is done in my house.”

And in another quote from Iced Magaddino is upset at Bonanno's "planing flags over the world:"

Bonanno’s arrival back in America did little to quell the growing storm that was brewing within mafia circles over his trip to Montreal. When Stefano Magaddino found out about his cousin’s northward expedition, he was livid and allegedly proclaimed, “he’s planting flags all over the world.” Magaddino suspected that Bonanno was trying to muscle in on his rackets in Ontario and that his trip to Canada was a ploy to that end. Characteristically, Bonanno rejected the allegations that he had gone to Canada to expand his interests. Instead, he had travelled there to escape the conflict engulfing him in New York: “What bothered Stefano about my Canadian trip was not that I went to Montreal but that I might use Montreal as a jumping-off point to encroach on his cherished Toronto,” he wrote in his autobiography. “There was no truth to this. I was looking to extricate myself from my world, not to entangle myself in territorial disputes.” The disputes were largely of Bonanno’s own making and confirmed Magaddino’s suspicions of his aspirations beyond New York.

[Angelo Santino]

Something else I'm ignorant on. What is the contention between Buffalo and Bonanno affiliated members in Canada. I'm now hearing that Violi was a member of both and I'm confused. I read The 6th Family, that's about it. Despite having no personal disagreements with the facts within, I don't agree with their narrative that everything the Rizzuto's did was a well thought out conspiracy since 1960-whenever. I do think the authors connected the dots and up to that point the Rizzutos enjoyed a very good run. Of course the author's projected "cut off a patch of hair and more will grow over stronger" narrative didn't hold up too well. But that's not to be held against them, they are historians not fortune tellers and all too often people make predictions on the future based on current variables. Back in 2007 the Rizzutos looked strong.

Canada, like Chicago is something I've shied away from. I can't do any research on my own and instead am at the mercy of what others have written since records aren't as easily available.

Magaddino in 65 claims he's been in Canada 45 years, I can't see him being off by more than 5 years so it goes further back.

In the 1900's, there were letters between Lupo and Morello confiscated that were sent from Canada. And Salvatore Clemente was locked up in Toronto in 1903 and was connected with members there. His affiliation went from Corleonese 1895-1902, he was incarcerated and released in 1910 when he transferred his membership back to the Corleonese from Chicago, (I'm not sure he was ever in that city long term nor is it explained, it just shows the curveballs history throws.) Also, Canada was a good place to hide if you were too hot for the woods of NY and PA. Both Lupo and Maranzano were in Canada prior to coming to the USA but I believe it was short term.

[B.]

I've only seen the summary of those Giacomo Luppino tapes, but what I found interesting is that he was apparently very honored that Magaddino set aside 20 minutes to speak with him personally at the affair. For people who wonder why 'ndrangheta-connected Calabrians in Ontario like the Luppinos would "allow themselves" to be under Buffalo, you only have to look at the respect Luppino had for his boss in Cosa Nostra. Naturally over time Buffalo weakened significantly and Ontario has an identity of its own but you have to look at the roots of the relationship to understand it.

It may be a very different organization today, but Domenico Violi appeared to have been honored to "make history" under Todaro as the first Canadian underboss, just like his grandfather was honored to be personally addressed in conversation with Magaddino. There are people on here who will read this and immediately think I am equating Todaro with Stefano Magaddino, which I'm not. What is clear, though, is that Todaro and Magaddino were both bosses of the Buffalo family and both Luppino and his grandson in Canada appear to have held their status in the Buffalo family at high value.

[B.]

Hard to imagine the Bonanno family would try to take members from Rochester without approval given that's the exact sort of issue that got Joe Bonanno into trouble, though who knows. It's interesting too that Frank Valenti was said by DiLeonardo to have been placed under Milano after moving to Tucson. Suggests that Rochester members were given some kind of assignment when all was said and done. It's most likely to me that whatever remained of Rochester went back with Buffalo unless there was significantly bad blood between the two, but that's total speculation.

What's strange, is if Rochester broke off without Buffalo's approval, why wasn't there more violence? Both groups had been very violent in the years leading up to and surrounding this, and a rebel crew breaking off into their own family would warrant violence. Either the violent Rochester crew wasn't worth the trouble to Buffalo at the time, or maybe there was more going on politically.

Paul DiCocco was a Bonanno member near Albany but that area was affiliated with the Buffalo Utica crew, not Rochester. Carmine Persico also had property upstate and met with Joe Falcone related to some kind of matter. The Colombos were also tied to Buffalo through Pieri and DiCarlo, who were related by marriage to Tony Bonasera and an informant believed that Bonasera would support Pieri in his early attempts to regain influence.

Here's another twist on the Rochester / Buffalo relationship:
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/09/26 ... 528091200/

In a tape recorded at the Palma Boy's Club headquarters for Salerno, a dispute between two members of the Buffalo crime family was discussed.

The Justice Department said the dispute involved reputed Buffalo boss Samuel Rossetti and underboss Joseph Todaro Sr. It apparently was over Rosetti's intention to step down and who would replace him.

John Tronolone, a leader of the Cleveland family, formerly with the Buffalo organization, was with Salerno, hearing out a problem from Joseph Pieri, a counselor from Buffalo.

When the Salerno and Tronolone heard the problem, not spelled out on the tape, nor explained through corroborating testimony, Salerno said, 'Give him (believed to be Rossetti) the word from the commission.'

'Do that,' Tronolone agreed.

'He'll have word ... from the commission,' added Salerno.

Later Tronolone said a message will be brought 'with word from the commission.'

Must be an error naming the misspelled Sam Russotti from Rochester as "Buffalo boss" with Todaro Sr. as underboss (who by then may have been the actual Buffalo boss or acting boss), but it suggests Buffalo was in some way involved (or they desired to be involved) in Rochester's administrative matters and that this was handled with the Commission but with Buffalo and Cleveland's involvement. Tronolone's connection to Pieri is no surprise given Tronolone was a product of the Pieri/DiCarlo faction.

B. I was doing some speculation re: Magaddino's bringing in over 100 members in 43 years and your theory about other groups in upstate NY being possibly absorbed, when do you think that this possibly occurred? Magaddino's claim that he's been in Canada (including Montreal amazingly) for 45 years. (This guy had quite the full plate from 1918-1922: the Good Killers case, his relocation to Buffalo, his becoming boss there within a year, declining the former boss of bosses, the northern expansion into Canada.

Buffalo historians credit Buffalo's close proximity to Canada and their ability to supply high quality liquor (as opposed to that stepped-on New York shit, nucka) to NYC. Such an arrangement in the early to mid 1920's would have ramifications for any theoretical Families in between. If there wasn't an arrangement early on then certainly no later than the 1930's. (I wonder if Alabama's dissolve and Newark's absorption were in any way connected to something larger, some agreed upon reconsolidation, one that may include Upstate NY theoretically going to Buffalo.

Going through my early Rochester notes, mafia activity or not, both that city and Buffalo were joined when it comes to Italo crime. People bounced between both cities and there were crime rings between them. I would - and I may end up being wrong if more info on this surfaces - wonder if Rochester was under Buffalo from at least the 1910's. Rochester is connected to plenty of other cities too, but this coinciding with their shared heritage moves the needle towards that direction, speculation-wise. Arguably the same for Niagara Falls. That leaves Utica, Toronto.. and Montreal? He made it sound like Montreal was his in the FBI files.

I'd have no idea when the consolidating may have happened since Magaddino's timeline for that statement could span over 40 years. My gut would be in the 1920s-30s is when most of this happened, based on what was happening locally and nationally during that time. Magaddino tells a story involving "Caliddu" Bordonaro in the 1920s, so it suggests that the Canadian ties could go back that far though I'm not sure when Bordonaro settled in Canada. I mean, the proximity makes an early connection between Buffalo and Hamilton practically a given.

I believe a lot of the myths about families being reorganized or even "created" during/after the Castellammarese War didn't just come out of nowhere even though they've been grossly distorted. It is entirely possible there was some reconfiguration among mafia groups during that time, as we know there were transfers in membership and circumstantial evidence points to some shifts and changes taking place. The Castellammarese War "creation" myths could be a butchered version of these kinds of smaller administrative events. At the very least a massive number of bosses changed all over the US from the period leading up to the war to the end, and the death/murder of bosses was probably a significant reason why some members/factions may have split off or groups were otherwise reorganized or reconfigured.

With the above in mind, I wouldn't be surprised to find out Utica joined Buffalo following the 1934 double murder of Pietro Lima and Domenico Aiello. Lima and Aiello had been the senior mafia leaders in Utica for years and would be replaced by the Falcone brothers, who are suspected of being involved in the murder. Reportedly, Aiello (Lima's brother-in-law) was killed only because he was with Lima, though I suspect this could be a cover story to justify the murder later given that Falcone's son married Aiello's daughter and it would be awkward if everyone believed the groom's father "meant" to kill the bride's father. Not that this crowd had high standards in that regard, as there had been earlier in-law violence involving the Limas and Gambinos. Tangent aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Lima's murder was a factor in Buffalo gaining control of Utica.

So many of the guys on Lennert's Rochester list come from the same towns as the Buffalo mafiosi that they easily could have been one group. Even though I believe some "outposts" may have been separate families originally, I def don't believe this is true for every outpost. If Rochester was "always" part of Buffalo, it would lend itself to that area falling back under Buffalo influence once the Rochester group had run its course on its own.

I like what you're saying about Alabama and Newark playing into something larger going on, though hard to say what given those two examples were split up allegedly for opposite reasons. We also have the San Jose family being created sometime after the late-1920s which must have been purely a political matter, as the CA Bay Area would in no way support a need for two families that close and I can't think of any practical reason why a second family would be created there.

Not that I'm drawing up a conspiracy but it is interesting how the Bonannos influence other groups, first with Schiro members going to SF, Buf, Det, Philly, Boston; the 1960's disputes Bonanno stirred up and their involvement with the remnants of the declined upstate NY groups in the last 30 years.

Don't forget Colorado. Jim Colletti was Joe Bonanno's business partner and may have originally been a Bonanno member before he went to Colorado and became boss. Colletti's cousin Joseph Colletti was an early Bonanno captain. I suspect that Joe Bonanno already had Colorado in his pocket when he was attempting his move on California. Bonanno continued to try and get support from the Colorado family through the 1970s but by then Colletti was no longer the power and the Colorado leadership refused to recognize Bonanno despite his insistence.

[Angelo Santino]

I'd have no idea when the consolidating may have happened since Magaddino's timeline for that statement could span over 40 years. My gut would be in the 1920s-30s is when most of this happened, based on what was happening locally and nationally during that time. Magaddino tells a story involving "Caliddu" Bordonaro in the 1920s, so it suggests that the Canadian ties could go back that far though I'm not sure when Bordonaro settled in Canada. I mean, the proximity makes an early connection between Buffalo and Hamilton practically a given.

We have Buffalo and Rochester linked since 1910 probably earlier, Ontario 1920's, Youngstown mid 20's and Utica no later than 34. Magaddino's alcohol pipeline from Canada into Buffalo onto NYC probably made him one of the most important non-NY figures in the 20's. It makes sense that his influence would grow and extend to other areas as that's where the piplines splintered off to.

I believe a lot of the myths about families being reorganized or even "created" during/after the Castellammarese War didn't just come out of nowhere even though they've been grossly distorted. It is entirely possible there was some reconfiguration among mafia groups during that time, as we know there were transfers in membership and circumstantial evidence points to some shifts and changes taking place. The Castellammarese War "creation" myths could be a butchered version of these kinds of smaller administrative events. At the very least a massive number of bosses changed all over the US from the period leading up to the war to the end, and the death/murder of bosses was probably a significant reason why some members/factions may have split off or groups were otherwise reorganized or reconfigured.

In regards to the reorganization in 1931, Buffalo isn't mentioned what, if alot or nothing, occurred. Gentile sad Maranzano reorganized "some of the more important borgate in NY." While I don't think he was talking about upstate NY, he might not have been denying it either.

In terms of the amount of bosses being murdered, you make excellent points. But I would also take into consideration the turbulent criminal era they were in, events and issues were occurring locally and were perhaps more important to these men as individuals.

And with Luciano, I can't seem to find a single thing he's responsible for. He didn't create the hierarchy, he didn't think up the commission, he didn't go around to each and every member showing them "new American ways" to make money like Quest For Fire. But it doesn't change the fact that people, as late as the 90's in NYC, very elderly people recite the Sicilian Vespers as if it actually happened, they believe it.

I wonder if Luciano as a boss was more symbolic than anything else, especially for non-Mafia traditionalists. There was him and then there was Mangano, Bonanno, Profaci and Gagliano who all presumably came from Mafia backgrounds. Luciano's behavior was more American racketeer than Sicilian Mafioso and probably more relatable.

With the above in mind, I wouldn't be surprised to find out Utica joined Buffalo following the 1934 double murder of Pietro Lima and Domenico Aiello. Lima and Aiello had been the senior mafia leaders in Utica for years and would be replaced by the Falcone brothers, who are suspected of being involved in the murder. Reportedly, Aiello (Lima's brother-in-law) was killed only because he was with Lima, though I suspect this could be a cover story to justify the murder later given that Falcone's son married Aiello's daughter and it would be awkward if everyone believed the groom's father "meant" to kill the bride's father. Not that this crowd had high standards in that regard, as there had been earlier in-law violence involving the Limas and Gambinos. Tangent aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Lima's murder was a factor in Buffalo gaining control of Utica.

Sounds like a good theory.

So many of the guys on Lennert's Rochester list come from the same towns as the Buffalo mafiosi that they easily could have been one group. Even though I believe some "outposts" may have been separate families originally, I def don't believe this is true for every outpost. If Rochester was "always" part of Buffalo, it would lend itself to that area falling back under Buffalo influence once the Rochester group had run its course on its own.

Which is why I think Rochester fell under Buffalo very early on.

I like what you're saying about Alabama and Newark playing into something larger going on, though hard to say what given those two examples were split up allegedly for opposite reasons. We also have the San Jose family being created sometime after the late-1920s which must have been purely a political matter, as the CA Bay Area would in no way support a need for two families that close and I can't think of any practical reason why a second family would be created there.

That's true if we fully believe the narratives. With Birmingham all we have is Joe Bonanno's son recollecting events from 80 years prior. Maybe things didn't go down the way it was relayed to Bill. It's just strange that so many events occured in 1934 which resulted in some auspicious activity regarding certain Mafia groups. I should point out that even the Newark events are confusing as Gentile was either confused or misrecollecting.

Don't forget Colorado. Jim Colletti was Joe Bonanno's business partner and may have originally been a Bonanno member before he went to Colorado and became boss. Colletti's cousin Joseph Colletti was an early Bonanno captain. I suspect that Joe Bonanno already had Colorado in his pocket when he was attempting his move on California. Bonanno continued to try and get support from the Colorado family through the 1970s but by then Colletti was no longer the power and the Colorado leadership refused to recognize Bonanno despite his insistence.

People from Castellammare are great sailors, you will find Castellammarese all over Italy and in France, sprinkled in here and there. And with the fish diet people live longer from there.

[cavita]

Hard to imagine the Bonanno family would try to take members from Rochester without approval given that's the exact sort of issue that got Joe Bonanno into trouble, though who knows. It's interesting too that Frank Valenti was said by DiLeonardo to have been placed under Milano after moving to Tucson. Suggests that Rochester members were given some kind of assignment when all was said and done. It's most likely to me that whatever remained of Rochester went back with Buffalo unless there was significantly bad blood between the two, but that's total speculation.

What's strange, is if Rochester broke off without Buffalo's approval, why wasn't there more violence? Both groups had been very violent in the years leading up to and surrounding this, and a rebel crew breaking off into their own family would warrant violence. Either the violent Rochester crew wasn't worth the trouble to Buffalo at the time, or maybe there was more going on politically.

Paul DiCocco was a Bonanno member near Albany but that area was affiliated with the Buffalo Utica crew, not Rochester. Carmine Persico also had property upstate and met with Joe Falcone related to some kind of matter. The Colombos were also tied to Buffalo through Pieri and DiCarlo, who were related by marriage to Tony Bonasera and an informant believed that Bonasera would support Pieri in his early attempts to regain influence.

Here's another twist on the Rochester / Buffalo relationship:
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/09/26 ... 528091200/

In a tape recorded at the Palma Boy's Club headquarters for Salerno, a dispute between two members of the Buffalo crime family was discussed.

The Justice Department said the dispute involved reputed Buffalo boss Samuel Rossetti and underboss Joseph Todaro Sr. It apparently was over Rosetti's intention to step down and who would replace him.

John Tronolone, a leader of the Cleveland family, formerly with the Buffalo organization, was with Salerno, hearing out a problem from Joseph Pieri, a counselor from Buffalo.

When the Salerno and Tronolone heard the problem, not spelled out on the tape, nor explained through corroborating testimony, Salerno said, 'Give him (believed to be Rossetti) the word from the commission.'

'Do that,' Tronolone agreed.

'He'll have word ... from the commission,' added Salerno.

Later Tronolone said a message will be brought 'with word from the commission.'

Must be an error naming the misspelled Sam Russotti from Rochester as "Buffalo boss" with Todaro Sr. as underboss (who by then may have been the actual Buffalo boss or acting boss), but it suggests Buffalo was in some way involved (or they desired to be involved) in Rochester's administrative matters and that this was handled with the Commission but with Buffalo and Cleveland's involvement. Tronolone's connection to Pieri is no surprise given Tronolone was a product of the Pieri/DiCarlo faction.

B. I was doing some speculation re: Magaddino's bringing in over 100 members in 43 years and your theory about other groups in upstate NY being possibly absorbed, when do you think that this possibly occurred? Magaddino's claim that he's been in Canada (including Montreal amazingly) for 45 years. (This guy had quite the full plate from 1918-1922: the Good Killers case, his relocation to Buffalo, his becoming boss there within a year, declining the former boss of bosses, the northern expansion into Canada.

Buffalo historians credit Buffalo's close proximity to Canada and their ability to supply high quality liquor (as opposed to that stepped-on New York shit, nucka) to NYC. Such an arrangement in the early to mid 1920's would have ramifications for any theoretical Families in between. If there wasn't an arrangement early on then certainly no later than the 1930's. (I wonder if Alabama's dissolve and Newark's absorption were in any way connected to something larger, some agreed upon reconsolidation, one that may include Upstate NY theoretically going to Buffalo.

Going through my early Rochester notes, mafia activity or not, both that city and Buffalo were joined when it comes to Italo crime. People bounced between both cities and there were crime rings between them. I would - and I may end up being wrong if more info on this surfaces - wonder if Rochester was under Buffalo from at least the 1910's. Rochester is connected to plenty of other cities too, but this coinciding with their shared heritage moves the needle towards that direction, speculation-wise. Arguably the same for Niagara Falls. That leaves Utica, Toronto.. and Montreal? He made it sound like Montreal was his in the FBI files.

I'd have no idea when the consolidating may have happened since Magaddino's timeline for that statement could span over 40 years. My gut would be in the 1920s-30s is when most of this happened, based on what was happening locally and nationally during that time. Magaddino tells a story involving "Caliddu" Bordonaro in the 1920s, so it suggests that the Canadian ties could go back that far though I'm not sure when Bordonaro settled in Canada. I mean, the proximity makes an early connection between Buffalo and Hamilton practically a given.

I believe a lot of the myths about families being reorganized or even "created" during/after the Castellammarese War didn't just come out of nowhere even though they've been grossly distorted. It is entirely possible there was some reconfiguration among mafia groups during that time, as we know there were transfers in membership and circumstantial evidence points to some shifts and changes taking place. The Castellammarese War "creation" myths could be a butchered version of these kinds of smaller administrative events. At the very least a massive number of bosses changed all over the US from the period leading up to the war to the end, and the death/murder of bosses was probably a significant reason why some members/factions may have split off or groups were otherwise reorganized or reconfigured.

With the above in mind, I wouldn't be surprised to find out Utica joined Buffalo following the 1934 double murder of Pietro Lima and Domenico Aiello. Lima and Aiello had been the senior mafia leaders in Utica for years and would be replaced by the Falcone brothers, who are suspected of being involved in the murder. Reportedly, Aiello (Lima's brother-in-law) was killed only because he was with Lima, though I suspect this could be a cover story to justify the murder later given that Falcone's son married Aiello's daughter and it would be awkward if everyone believed the groom's father "meant" to kill the bride's father. Not that this crowd had high standards in that regard, as there had been earlier in-law violence involving the Limas and Gambinos. Tangent aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Lima's murder was a factor in Buffalo gaining control of Utica.

So many of the guys on Lennert's Rochester list come from the same towns as the Buffalo mafiosi that they easily could have been one group. Even though I believe some "outposts" may have been separate families originally, I def don't believe this is true for every outpost. If Rochester was "always" part of Buffalo, it would lend itself to that area falling back under Buffalo influence once the Rochester group had run its course on its own.

I like what you're saying about Alabama and Newark playing into something larger going on, though hard to say what given those two examples were split up allegedly for opposite reasons. We also have the San Jose family being created sometime after the late-1920s which must have been purely a political matter, as the CA Bay Area would in no way support a need for two families that close and I can't think of any practical reason why a second family would be created there.

Not that I'm drawing up a conspiracy but it is interesting how the Bonannos influence other groups, first with Schiro members going to SF, Buf, Det, Philly, Boston; the 1960's disputes Bonanno stirred up and their involvement with the remnants of the declined upstate NY groups in the last 30 years.

Don't forget Colorado. Jim Colletti was Joe Bonanno's business partner and may have originally been a Bonanno member before he went to Colorado and became boss. Colletti's cousin Joseph Colletti was an early Bonanno captain. I suspect that Joe Bonanno already had Colorado in his pocket when he was attempting his move on California. Bonanno continued to try and get support from the Colorado family through the 1970s but by then Colletti was no longer the power and the Colorado leadership refused to recognize Bonanno despite his insistence.

Great info! Especially on the Colorado connection which is entirely plausible.