Hard to imagine the Bonanno family would try to take members from Rochester without approval given that's the exact sort of issue that got Joe Bonanno into trouble, though who knows. It's interesting too that Frank Valenti was said by DiLeonardo to have been placed under Milano after moving to Tucson. Suggests that Rochester members were given some kind of assignment when all was said and done. It's most likely to me that whatever remained of Rochester went back with Buffalo unless there was significantly bad blood between the two, but that's total speculation.
What's strange, is if Rochester broke off without Buffalo's approval, why wasn't there more violence? Both groups had been very violent in the years leading up to and surrounding this, and a rebel crew breaking off into their own family would warrant violence. Either the violent Rochester crew wasn't worth the trouble to Buffalo at the time, or maybe there was more going on politically.
Paul DiCocco was a Bonanno member near Albany but that area was affiliated with the Buffalo Utica crew, not Rochester. Carmine Persico also had property upstate and met with Joe Falcone related to some kind of matter. The Colombos were also tied to Buffalo through Pieri and DiCarlo, who were related by marriage to Tony Bonasera and an informant believed that Bonasera would support Pieri in his early attempts to regain influence.
Here's another twist on the Rochester / Buffalo relationship:
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/09/26 ... 528091200/
In a tape recorded at the Palma Boy's Club headquarters for Salerno, a dispute between two members of the Buffalo crime family was discussed.
The Justice Department said the dispute involved reputed Buffalo boss Samuel Rossetti and underboss Joseph Todaro Sr. It apparently was over Rosetti's intention to step down and who would replace him.
John Tronolone, a leader of the Cleveland family, formerly with the Buffalo organization, was with Salerno, hearing out a problem from Joseph Pieri, a counselor from Buffalo.
When the Salerno and Tronolone heard the problem, not spelled out on the tape, nor explained through corroborating testimony, Salerno said, 'Give him (believed to be Rossetti) the word from the commission.'
'Do that,' Tronolone agreed.
'He'll have word ... from the commission,' added Salerno.
Later Tronolone said a message will be brought 'with word from the commission.'
Must be an error naming the misspelled Sam Russotti from Rochester as "Buffalo boss" with Todaro Sr. as underboss (who by then may have been the actual Buffalo boss or acting boss), but it suggests Buffalo was in some way involved (or they desired to be involved) in Rochester's administrative matters and that this was handled with the Commission but with Buffalo and Cleveland's involvement. Tronolone's connection to Pieri is no surprise given Tronolone was a product of the Pieri/DiCarlo faction.
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:48 am
B. I was doing some speculation re: Magaddino's bringing in over 100 members in 43 years and your theory about other groups in upstate NY being possibly absorbed, when do you think that this possibly occurred? Magaddino's claim that he's been in Canada (including Montreal amazingly) for 45 years. (This guy had quite the full plate from 1918-1922: the Good Killers case, his relocation to Buffalo, his becoming boss there within a year, declining the former boss of bosses, the northern expansion into Canada.
Buffalo historians credit Buffalo's close proximity to Canada and their ability to supply high quality liquor (as opposed to that stepped-on New York shit, nucka) to NYC. Such an arrangement in the early to mid 1920's would have ramifications for any theoretical Families in between. If there wasn't an arrangement early on then certainly no later than the 1930's. (I wonder if Alabama's dissolve and Newark's absorption were in any way connected to something larger, some agreed upon reconsolidation, one that may include Upstate NY theoretically going to Buffalo.
Going through my early Rochester notes, mafia activity or not, both that city and Buffalo were joined when it comes to Italo crime. People bounced between both cities and there were crime rings between them. I would - and I may end up being wrong if more info on this surfaces - wonder if Rochester was under Buffalo from at least the 1910's. Rochester is connected to plenty of other cities too, but this coinciding with their shared heritage moves the needle towards that direction, speculation-wise. Arguably the same for Niagara Falls. That leaves Utica, Toronto.. and Montreal? He made it sound like Montreal was his in the FBI files.
I'd have no idea when the consolidating may have happened since Magaddino's timeline for that statement could span over 40 years. My gut would be in the 1920s-30s is when most of this happened, based on what was happening locally and nationally during that time. Magaddino tells a story involving "Caliddu" Bordonaro in the 1920s, so it suggests that the Canadian ties could go back that far though I'm not sure when Bordonaro settled in Canada. I mean, the proximity makes an early connection between Buffalo and Hamilton practically a given.
I believe a lot of the myths about families being reorganized or even "created" during/after the Castellammarese War didn't just come out of nowhere even though they've been grossly distorted. It is entirely possible there was some reconfiguration among mafia groups during that time, as we know there were transfers in membership and circumstantial evidence points to some shifts and changes taking place. The Castellammarese War "creation" myths could be a butchered version of these kinds of smaller administrative events. At the very least a massive number of bosses changed all over the US from the period leading up to the war to the end, and the death/murder of bosses was probably a significant reason why some members/factions may have split off or groups were otherwise reorganized or reconfigured.
With the above in mind, I wouldn't be surprised to find out Utica joined Buffalo following the 1934 double murder of Pietro Lima and Domenico Aiello. Lima and Aiello had been the senior mafia leaders in Utica for years and would be replaced by the Falcone brothers, who are suspected of being involved in the murder. Reportedly, Aiello (Lima's brother-in-law) was killed only because he was with Lima, though I suspect this could be a cover story to justify the murder later given that Falcone's son married Aiello's daughter and it would be awkward if everyone believed the groom's father "meant" to kill the bride's father. Not that this crowd had high standards in that regard, as there had been earlier in-law violence involving the Limas and Gambinos. Tangent aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Lima's murder was a factor in Buffalo gaining control of Utica.
So many of the guys on Lennert's Rochester list come from the same towns as the Buffalo mafiosi that they easily could have been one group. Even though I believe some "outposts" may have been separate families originally, I def don't believe this is true for every outpost. If Rochester was "always" part of Buffalo, it would lend itself to that area falling back under Buffalo influence once the Rochester group had run its course on its own.
I like what you're saying about Alabama and Newark playing into something larger going on, though hard to say what given those two examples were split up allegedly for opposite reasons. We also have the San Jose family being created sometime after the late-1920s which must have been purely a political matter, as the CA Bay Area would in no way support a need for two families that close and I can't think of any practical reason why a second family would be created there.
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:02 am
Not that I'm drawing up a conspiracy but it is interesting how the Bonannos influence other groups, first with Schiro members going to SF, Buf, Det, Philly, Boston; the 1960's disputes Bonanno stirred up and their involvement with the remnants of the declined upstate NY groups in the last 30 years.
Don't forget Colorado. Jim Colletti was Joe Bonanno's business partner and may have originally been a Bonanno member before he went to Colorado and became boss. Colletti's cousin Joseph Colletti was an early Bonanno captain. I suspect that Joe Bonanno already had Colorado in his pocket when he was attempting his move on California. Bonanno continued to try and get support from the Colorado family through the 1970s but by then Colletti was no longer the power and the Colorado leadership refused to recognize Bonanno despite his insistence.