How Many Mafia Families Were There? 20,24,26???

[scagghiuni]

I think you meant to say the local "Neapolitan" Camorra. No?

probably it was a mixed gang formed by calabrians, neapolitans etc. but not a branch of original neapolitan camorra, that structure in italy was dismantled in 1910, cutolo tried to reform it in the 1970s

[Lupara]

It's hard to say what law enforcement means because a lot of their quotes are propaganda to promote prosecution of certain people. Chicago had a pretty large empire in the 60s and 70s that I don't believe any of the NY families had. Vegas notably, which mostly belonged to Chicago after Howard Hughes was out.

They never had the manpower the Genoveses had. At their height they may have been similar in size to one of the smaller New York families.

That being said, the Outfit had the city all for themselves and did not have to share labor unions, gambling and other rackets.

But the fact that Capone was a Masseria capo says enough. Why join a family that is less powerful than yours?

[Lupara]

Between Costello's retirement and the 80s? I'm not sure about that. Chicago was a massive empire in that time. The Genovese was essentially in a "rebuilding" period after Costello. Gambino was the man in NY. Powerful but did the Gambinos have the rackets Chicago did during the 60's and 70s? Luccheses were always solid in this time but also relatively low key.

It's obvious you're coming from a position of ignorance on this, as usual.


"You keep hearing all this crap about Gotti being the boss of the bosses, but the Genovese have always been the country's most powerful family."
- Richard Ross, FBI (1990)

"I've always felt the Genovese family was the more powerful of the two. It has been able to operate in the shadows while the Gambino family grabbed the attention of law enforcement and the public."
- Ronad Goldstock, Director of New York State Organized Crime Task Force (1992)

"I have always considered the Genovese Family to be the most powerful LCN family in the United States."
- Al D'Arco, Lucchese LCN family Acting Boss (1994)

"The Genovese family has probably been the most powerful La Cosa Nostra family of the last hundred years."
- Ask Andy, Gangland News (1996)

"The Genovese family, I think, in many ways was the most powerful family in the country in terms of it's domination and exploitation of labor unions and legitimate businesses."
- Michael Chertoff, former NY federal prosecutor (2000)

Even though I agree that the Genoveses have been the most formidable family for obvious historical reasons, you are selectively using quotes in favor of the Genoveses' position. I'm sure one can find quotes of people saying the Gambinos were the most powerful too.

[Wiseguy]

It's hard to say what law enforcement means because a lot of their quotes are propaganda to promote prosecution of certain people.

Sure. Mmm hmm.

Chicago had a pretty large empire in the 60s and 70s that I don't believe any of the NY families had. Vegas notably, which mostly belonged to Chicago after Howard Hughes was out.

I've had to do your research for you in the past and I'm getting sick of doing it.

The Genovese family had the largest gambling and loansharking operations in the country. They were involved in the waterfront, construction, trucking, waste hauling, the food wholesale markets, garment center, etc. They represented several eastern families on the Commission. And they were always a larger organization than Chicago. The Genovese were the first to get into Vegas and retained the most involvement after most families outside of the Midwest left.

Even though I agree that the Genoveses have been the most formidable family for obvious historical reasons, you are selectively using quotes in favor of the Genoveses' position. I'm sure one can find quotes of people saying the Gambinos were the most powerful too.

Oh, there are plenty of them claiming Gambino supremacy. And they originated in the 1970s with the false idea that Gambino was the "boss of bosses," controlled other NY families, and the Genovese family didn't have leadership after Vito went to prison. There's something to be said for the benefit of hindsight.

[B.]

Chicago was like the Genovese and Pittsburgh families in that they recruited from outside of traditional Sicilian mafia circles and those elements came to dominate the family, but all three organizations were still officially Cosa Nostra / mafia families under the umbrella of their Sicilian lineage. When the Commission was formed, they didn't say, "Okay, Al's family is kind of a hybrid of a few different groups, not really a mafia family, but let's let him sit on the Commission anyway." He became boss of an existing Chicago mafia family when he transferred from the Masseria/Genovese mafia family.

The term "outfit" was used regionally by most if not all of the midwest families and on the west coast as well. These midwestern and western groups were in constant contact with each other, so they ended up using the same lexicon, much like east coast families ended up with their own language (i.e. calling captains "capos", a term previously reserved for the boss). Chicago received the most media attention and naturally became "The Outfit" but it wasn't a formal term that described a unique organization, at least not originally, and use of the term wasn't unique to them.

I'm not so sure Chicago's use of the consigliere position is even much different from the original use of consiglieri. We have multiple CIs/CWs in NYC who describe the consigliere as the most important position in the family (DiLeonardo and Cafaro said this, and I believe Scarpa made similar remarks, noting that consiglieres are rarely if ever murdered), one that is elected by the membership instead of selected by the boss. We recently discussed Magaddino's taped comments about how he chose not to allow a consigliere in his family because it would lessen and divide his power as boss. From a variety of sources we know the consigliere was someone who the membership could consult with independent of the boss. Magaddino appears to have been concerned that having a consigliere would lead to a power-sharing situation, which doesn't sound too different from Chicago's boss / consigliere dynamic.

Seems like time and circumstance led the Chicago group to reinforce and increase the consigliere's power while NYC gradually took away the consigliere's influence, corrupting it to the defacto "number three" position it's known as today. No doubt time turned Chicago into a much different type of mafia organization but in formal terms Chicago is a Cosa Nostra family like the rest of the US who had their own unique influences that shaped them over time.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

They never had the manpower the Genoveses had.

I'm not sure what you mean by manpower. Are you just counting actual members and summarizing that as power? I'm talking about Chicago's business empire and their tentacles of corruption across the entire country. I've seen no evidence that that power was matched in the 60s and 70s. It was the Luciano family before then, the Gambino family afterward. Then the Genovese again after the Gotti debacle.

But the fact that Capone was a Masseria capo says enough. Why join a family that is less powerful than yours?

In the 60s and 70s I could think of plenty of reasons for someone to choose Chicago over any NY family, even the Genovese.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

The Genovese family had the largest gambling and loansharking operations in the country.

Was this true in the 60s and 70s? If so, please provide some specific examples. What were the Genovese involved in that could be compared to Chicago's Vegas rackets during this time? The reason the Genovese went in so hard on Phily was because of how successful Chicago was in Vegas.

[Pogo The Clown]

Actually the Vegas skim wasn't all that much money when it was divided up among all the families and people involved. I forgot the exact figures but Angelo Lonardo went into and after it all spread around it didn't amount to much. I'd wager that a good sized sports book in NYC or Jersey was bringing more that what Chicago was getting from the skim.


Pogo

[maxiestern11]

The Genovese family had the largest gambling and loansharking operations in the country.

Was this true in the 60s and 70s? If so, please provide some specific examples. What were the Genovese involved in that could be compared to Chicago's Vegas rackets during this time? The reason the Genovese went in so hard on Phily was because of how successful Chicago was in Vegas.

Not true!!!...... Vegas was created by NY (Siegel and Lansky remember?)... and the ONLY reason they could do that was because of Luciano, Costello, Adonis and the Genovese crew and other NY bosses and skippers behind them! True Chicago was there too!... (AFTERWARDS)!
The financial backing for the Flamingo Hotel and casino came from multiple top NYC guys putting up financing, millions, to build the place, and others after the Flamingo! ..... that’s why Bugsy got clipped. He was using and blowing other people’s money! A No No! ....
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It was ALWAYS NYC guys! .... across the country! And BTW: Torrio, Capone, Aiello, etc etc etc...... ALL emanated out of the NYC area first!
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Chicago, because they were based in the Midwest, handled from there westward to California, but EVEN there, Dragna, and other west coast powers started in NYC (Dragna for example grew from Harlem and the Lucchese crew - Stefano LaSalle, Tommy Lucchese, etc).... he lived in Harlem and was “sponsored” and always backed by NY (his strength so to speak)

[Grouchy Sinatra]

the ONLY reason they could do that was because of Luciano, Costello, Adonis and the Genovese crew and other NY bosses and skippers behind them!

You're leaving out Howard Hughes' purchase of mob owned properties. Chicago (and other midwest families) used frontmen to by it back through their control of the Teamsters. Vegas was pretty much Midwest turf ever since, until Wall Street would eventually buy it all out in the 80s.

It was ALWAYS NYC guys! .... across the country!

This just simply isn't true. The frontmen for the NY families sold their casino interests to Howard Hughes (with the approval of the families, of course). Chicago frontmen bought them back. You're omitting pretty much everything past 1960.

[Wiseguy]

The Genovese family had the largest gambling and loansharking operations in the country.

Was this true in the 60s and 70s? If so, please provide some specific examples. What were the Genovese involved in that could be compared to Chicago's Vegas rackets during this time? The reason the Genovese went in so hard on Phily was because of how successful Chicago was in Vegas.

If you look at gambling studies over the years, the biggest areas have always been in the Northeast. New York above all. I already told you much of what the Genovese were involved in. And I don't know why you keep bringing up Vegas. Even before the Argent years, when the casino skim was bigger, there were far bigger and more consistent money maker in both New York and Chicago.

Actually the Vegas skim wasn't all that much money when it was divided up among all the families and people involved. I forgot the exact figures but Angelo Lonardo went into and after it all spread around it didn't amount to much. I'd wager that a good sized sports book in NYC or Jersey was bringing more that what Chicago was getting from the skim.


Pogo

If I remember right, Lonardo mentioned $40,000 a month. Don't recall how that was split.

It does seem the money was bigger in earlier years. The later Argent years, when it was pretty much the Midwest families left, seems to have been a smaller operation.

For the period of 1960-1965 - figures released by FBI to the media for the Vegas skim were:

- Genovese: $50,000/month
- Chicago: $65,000/month
- Cleveland: $52,000/month
- Lansky and partners : $80,000/month

This just simply isn't true. The frontmen for the NY families sold their casino interests to Howard Hughes (with the approval of the families, of course). Chicago frontmen bought them back. You're omitting pretty much everything past 1960.

Many of the non-Mid West families did get out but it wasn't a primarily Mid-West operation until the 1970s. And, as I said above, it was a smaller skim at that point.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

For the period of 1960-1965 - figures released by FBI to the media for the Vegas skim were:

- Genovese: $50,000/month
- Chicago: $65,000/month
- Cleveland: $52,000/month
- Lansky and partners : $80,000/month

How about 1965-1985?

[Antiliar]

Was Joe Aiello's family separate from the Genna Family? When did the non-Capone Chicago families start?

Finally, was Chicago Heights its own family?

I think 26 is the correct number but if you want to be correct, you have to include the defuncts as well. Newark. Birmingham. San Diego. I too have read that San Diego fell apart after Prohibition but did once exist. San Diego would eventually become a crew under LA.

The Gennas weren't a separate crime family. They were part of the Chicago Mafia, as was Joe Aiello.

Yes, Chicago Heights was a Mafia crime family that was wiped out by the local Calabrian Camorra, and the Camorra group became a crew of Capone's Outfit. Gary, Indiana, was also an early Mafia Family that was later absorbed by the Outfit.

I think you meant to say the local "Neapolitan" Camorra. No?

No, I meant to say what I wrote.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Most powerful family since the Commission was formed.

1931-1957: Luciano (Genovese)

1957-1983: Chicago Outfit/Gambino

1983-1992: Gambino

1992-Present: Genovese.

[Wiseguy]

For the period of 1960-1965 - figures released by FBI to the media for the Vegas skim were:

- Genovese: $50,000/month
- Chicago: $65,000/month
- Cleveland: $52,000/month
- Lansky and partners : $80,000/month

How about 1965-1985?

Obviously figures are hard to come by. But keep in mind, Howard Hughes didn't purchase the Sands, Desert Inn, and Frontier until 1967. And the solely Midwest skim of the 4 Argent casinos (Stardust, Fremont, Hacienda, Marina) didnt start until 1974.

From the mid-1940s through the 1960s, Genovese members such as Frank Costello, Vincent Alo, Gerry Catena, Anthony Salerno, and others had interests in at least 8 Vegas casinos. They also had pieces of 3 casinos in Havana before the Castro revolution.

As Capeci pointed out, it's important to remember that the families didn't collectively get together and decide to buy interests in a casino. Individual mobsters did. Others didn't.

The Outfit, per se, didn't have interests but individual members like Anthony Accardo, Sam Giancana, Johnny Roselli, Joseph Aiuppa, Jackie Cerone, Angelo LaPietra, etc.

Same for Gambino captain Frank Piccolo, Detroit members Anthony Zerilli and Michael Polizzi, Cleveland bossrs John Scalish and Angelo Lonardo, St Louis boss Anthony Giordano, New England boss Raymond Patriarca, New Orleans boss Carlos Marcello, Kansas City boss Nick Civella, Milwaukee boss Frank Balistrieri, the Mannarinos in Pittsburgh, and so on.

Most powerful family since the Commission was formed.

1931-1957: Luciano (Genovese)

1957-1983: Chicago Outfit/Gambino

1983-1992: Gambino

1992-Present: Genovese.

That's some great revisionist history.

You're entire viewpoint above seems to be based on Costello retiring, Gambino being "the man," and an incorrect understanding of Vegas.