Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

But you don’t know if those larger families had permission to operate. The Gambinos reached out to boss Carolla in New Orleans in the early 90s. So did that Philly solider who wanted to run some things down there in the Big Easy.

The Genovese recently had a bust involving Merlino, right? He or Ligambi could’ve easily given the Westside permission to open u shop in Philly in exchange for a cut of profits.

So, even though the Bonannos could’ve told Buffalo off, they still may have decided to work with them for the sake of protocol and diplomacy.

Especially after the fallout with the Rizzutos, I’m sure the Bonannos needed all of the allies they could get. And I’m sure disrespecting mob protocol is the last thing they wanted to be seen as doing by other families, especially as they were tryin to drum up support to take on the Rizzutos, who themselves were in violation of protocol.

In most of those cases they didn't have permission. In the others it was more of a case of the smaller family going along with the rape as resisting would only make it more painful. Either way the stronger family was going to get its way regardless if they got permission or not.


Pogo

How sure are we that they didn't have permission? There's examples of people moving into other areas (which we're not always sure what arrangement if any) but how often has a family taken over another family's area or rackets by force? And when it did occur were there not sitdowns and meetings mean't to mediate the situation?

[B.]

In reference to the investigation in question, an RCMP official described the Violi brothers as "well established, influential; they have an international reach and are significant players in organized crime."

Was it ever specified what this international reach was? United States? Italy?

As for Joe Violi's membership, there was speculation that he may have attended the Bonanno ceremony as well, which would likely make him a member of one of the two families, but can't remember if it was ever substantiated that he attended.

[Pogo The Clown]

How sure are we that they didn't have permission? There's examples of people moving into other areas (which we're not always sure what arrangement if any) but how often has a family taken over another family's area or rackets by force? And when it did occur were there not sitdowns and meetings mean't to mediate the situation?

I don't know about taking over by force but there are plenty of examples of them setting up their own thing. We know that for decades NY and Chicago set up shop in LA and San Diego without any regard to the LA family. Frattiano talks about it in his book. Same with the Luccheses setting up shop in AC-South Jersey. I believe Philly complained but nothing came of it. That only ended after Scarfo Jr. was busted. Plus all the other examples of NY doing their own thing in AC even though that had been Phillys turf for decades.


In the other cases I suspect the weaker families went along because they really had no choice in the matter. Best to go along and avoid the trouble and hopefully have some crumbs thrown their way. I suspect that would have been the case with the Genovese setting up their own sports book in Philly (Philly's main racket right in their home turf) if they even bothered asking.


Though there have been a few cases of stronger families muscling in on the rackets of smaller ones. That is what happened when Chicago started taking a piece of the Vegas skim Milwaukee, KC and Cleveland had going. Or when Pittsburgh moved in on the weakened Cleveland families rackets in Youngstown.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

Excellent point counselor, thanks so much for your input. Just because somebody’s old man was stand up means SHIT today. And you know it. Junior Gotti’s old man was stand up, a big mouth albeit, but stand up. Now he’s telling tales on Twitter. Tony Milano was stand up for 60+ years, too bad his son cooperated, Joe Rosa was a stand up Capo in Pittsburgh, son flipped and devastated them. Just because somebody’s old man was stand up doesn’t mean it automatically falls to the next generation. I truly appreciate your defense of Paul but I wasn’t attacking him. If playing devils advocate is offensive to you, tough shit. FACT IS A STAND UP OLD MAN MEANS NOTHING WITH THE NEXT GENERATION. As evident by a few of examples I just cited. Paul, if you were offended, I apologize. Sonny tends to babble and just start shit with other posters, it won’t take you long to figure it out. Enjoy the night Sonny and thank you kindly for paying close attention to me, I’m flattered and weirded out at the same time. You been stocking me for years now. Get over it dude. Move forward. Letting me rent space in your head isn’t good for you man. You’re better than that. You can do it, I know you can

I’m not sure why you’re having trouble following me.

My point, again, is, some do, some don’t. You cited examples whereby son’s weren’t as stand up as their fathers. I cited where they were. The difference (here comes the point) is that I’m not the one making generalizations, and parlaying them as fact.
Whether Musitano stands up or not, is unknown. Some with stand up fathers do, some don’t.
But your condescension towards Paul was unfounded. Hence, the spanking.

I apologize for the delay in my response.

All the best.

[Frank]

Doesn't make a difference, as a third party was needed either way. The third party had to know Violi and at least one of the Bonanno members, like you said.

Someone could argue that because they didn't do the traditional ceremony, maybe they also skipped formal introductions and just told each other they were made, but the Bonannos have a long history of doing verbal-only ceremonies and they still followed introduction protocol. Cantarella even talked about meeting Anthony Rotondo of the DeCav family and they both knew that the other was a Cosa Nostra member but couldn't say it, so later they had to get Tony Graziano to make the formal introduction as he was a third party who knew both of them as Cosa Nostra members. Coincidentally both Cantarella and Rotondo were originally inducted in verbal-only ceremonies in their respective families.

Re: Papalia's affiliation. Capeci identified Papalia's father Antonio as a Buffalo family soldier. I know the elder Papalia has been mentioned as an early Buffalo-Ontario figure, but I'm curious if his membership has ever been confirmed.

Maybe he can Ask Andy .

That's a big lol. I thought he was fired

[Frank]

Doesn't make a difference, as a third party was needed either way. The third party had to know Violi and at least one of the Bonanno members, like you said.

Someone could argue that because they didn't do the traditional ceremony, maybe they also skipped formal introductions and just told each other they were made, but the Bonannos have a long history of doing verbal-only ceremonies and they still followed introduction protocol. Cantarella even talked about meeting Anthony Rotondo of the DeCav family and they both knew that the other was a Cosa Nostra member but couldn't say it, so later they had to get Tony Graziano to make the formal introduction as he was a third party who knew both of them as Cosa Nostra members. Coincidentally both Cantarella and Rotondo were originally inducted in verbal-only ceremonies in their respective families.

Re: Papalia's affiliation. Capeci identified Papalia's father Antonio as a Buffalo family soldier. I know the elder Papalia has been mentioned as an early Buffalo-Ontario figure, but I'm curious if his membership has ever been confirmed.

So your saying is that if you have 3 members, 1 knows the other 2 , but he can't introduce the other 2, without having one additional member there that knows all 3 of the original 3

[CabriniGreen]

In reference to the investigation in question, an RCMP official described the Violi brothers as "well established, influential; they have an international reach and are significant players in organized crime."

Was it ever specified what this international reach was? United States? Italy?

As for Joe Violi's membership, there was speculation that he may have attended the Bonanno ceremony as well, which would likely make him a member of one of the two families, but can't remember if it was ever substantiated that he attended.

Lol, I keep saying they had contacts in Colombia....

[Angelo Santino]

http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Sto ... letti.html
Says that Leonard Falzone become Consigliere in 1987 "according to the Feds." If it is according to them perhaps it might have come out during the 1994 Indictment as it was was specific, citing Todaro Sr as becoming boss between 1981-1985 and Todaro Jr as Underboss since 1985. In the 25YAV chart it lists Joe Pieri as the Consigliere who passed away in 1998.

So from 1985 until as early as 2006 or as late as 2012 the Todaros Sr and Jr Boss and Underboss remained unchanged (21-27 years). Now according to Violi in 2017 Joe Todaro Jr is the current Boss. Todaro Jr either:
A) Directly succeeded Leadpipe Joe and Falzone has always been under them.
B) Falzone was Official Boss in between, jumping over Underboss Todaro Jr for some reason. Seniority?
C) Falzone was De Facto "Acting Boss" after Todaro Sr died and Todaro Jr waited until Falzone passed away to become boss ,(similar to how Jack Tocco waiting to become boss until John Priziola died out of respect).

A) seems the most plausible and simplest to me.

What are the Todaro's background? Does anyone know which city in Italy they descend from? Toward's the end of Magaddino's career the Family split 3 ways, one faction being the Frangiamore faction who became boss and whom Joe Sr eventually succeeded. Any more information on that?

I don't know Pogo, I think The Fresh Street Talk is that Lead Pipe was no fool, he was setting his son up to carry on more than making good pizzas. The kid's been groomed since the early 70's and given the 2nd slot in '85. So after being Underboss for 30 years and evading law enforcement, I'd say Big Joe's earned the spot! Plus he has Canada's support by way of Rocco Luppino which says ALOT.

[JCB1977]

Great thread

[Angelo Santino]

Great thread

Agreed, I'm learning alot.

[B.]

Doesn't make a difference, as a third party was needed either way. The third party had to know Violi and at least one of the Bonanno members, like you said.

Someone could argue that because they didn't do the traditional ceremony, maybe they also skipped formal introductions and just told each other they were made, but the Bonannos have a long history of doing verbal-only ceremonies and they still followed introduction protocol. Cantarella even talked about meeting Anthony Rotondo of the DeCav family and they both knew that the other was a Cosa Nostra member but couldn't say it, so later they had to get Tony Graziano to make the formal introduction as he was a third party who knew both of them as Cosa Nostra members. Coincidentally both Cantarella and Rotondo were originally inducted in verbal-only ceremonies in their respective families.

Re: Papalia's affiliation. Capeci identified Papalia's father Antonio as a Buffalo family soldier. I know the elder Papalia has been mentioned as an early Buffalo-Ontario figure, but I'm curious if his membership has ever been confirmed.

So your saying is that if you have 3 members, 1 knows the other 2 , but he can't introduce the other 2, without having one additional member there that knows all 3 of the original 3

Violi was made in 2015 and between then and the Morena ceremony Violi had to have been formally introduced as a made member to someone who had also been introduced to at least one of the Bonanno members who attended the ceremony. Once Violi was introduced to one of the Bonanno members he could have been introduced to the other Bonannos through that one, but there had to have been someone else from the Buffalo family who initially introduced Violi to the Bonanno members to begin with.

The implication is that there was someone else, a member of the Buffalo family, who had already been introduced as a made member to at least one member of the visiting Bonanno group. This suggests formal contact was going on between the Buffalo/Ontario and Bonanno membership in prior to Violi's meeting(s) with the Zummo group and Morena.

[B.]

CC -- it came up in one of the threads that the Todaros are from Mussomeli like their relatives the Frangiamores. The Buffalo family had a strong foundation in Caltanissetta.

Interestingly there were Luppinos from Castellammare Del Golfo living in Buffalo/Niagara falls in the 1930s. One of them, Antonio Luppino, a grocer, was arrested on gun charges in 1932. No idea if they were criminally involved or connected beyond that. An Antonio and Rocco Luppino served time in Leavenworth penitentiary sometime very early on but can't confirm if they were connected to the ones in western NY.

Then it came out that Giacomo Luppino's wife is a Todaro, however she appears to be Calabrian. So we have Sicilian Luppinos as part of the early Castellammarese community in Buffalo/NF that the Magaddinos were a part of, and then you have a Calabrian Todaro as grandmother of Violi, who was promoted to underboss by a Sicilian Todaro.

[antimafia]

^^^^
The Buffalo Todaros’ Sicilian ancestry was discussed early on in this thread — see viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4122&p=102471&hili ... lo#p102471.

The Ontario Luppinos have Calabrian ancestry. Giacimo Luppino was born in Castellace, in Oppido Mamertina. Presumably, so was his wife. Son Vincenzo (“Jimmy”) was also born in Castellace. Paul Manning had a source tell him that Luppino’s wife, Domenica Todaro, was related to the Buffalo Todaros — I think this was some really bad info relayed to Paul.

[Frank]

Doesn't make a difference, as a third party was needed either way. The third party had to know Violi and at least one of the Bonanno members, like you said.

Someone could argue that because they didn't do the traditional ceremony, maybe they also skipped formal introductions and just told each other they were made, but the Bonannos have a long history of doing verbal-only ceremonies and they still followed introduction protocol. Cantarella even talked about meeting Anthony Rotondo of the DeCav family and they both knew that the other was a Cosa Nostra member but couldn't say it, so later they had to get Tony Graziano to make the formal introduction as he was a third party who knew both of them as Cosa Nostra members. Coincidentally both Cantarella and Rotondo were originally inducted in verbal-only ceremonies in their respective families.

Re: Papalia's affiliation. Capeci identified Papalia's father Antonio as a Buffalo family soldier. I know the elder Papalia has been mentioned as an early Buffalo-Ontario figure, but I'm curious if his membership has ever been confirmed.

So your saying is that if you have 3 members, 1 knows the other 2 , but he can't introduce the other 2, without having one additional member there that knows all 3 of the original 3

Violi was made in 2015 and between then and the Morena ceremony Violi had to have been formally introduced as a made member to someone who had also been introduced to at least one of the Bonanno members who attended the ceremony. Once Violi was introduced to one of the Bonanno members he could have been introduced to the other Bonannos through that one, but there had to have been someone else from the Buffalo family who initially introduced Violi to the Bonanno members to begin with.

The implication is that there was someone else, a member of the Buffalo family, who had already been introduced as a made member to at least one member of the visiting Bonanno group. This suggests formal contact was going on between the Buffalo/Ontario and Bonanno membership in prior to Violi's meeting(s) with the Zummo group and Morena.

Ok, yes now I understand.

[Angelo Santino]

Took the name of the Govr out. But here’s your connections from the Musitano’s to Buffalo.




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What year was this from?