THE BLACK HAND FORUM

gohnjotti wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:39 am

Hired_Goonz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:35 am Well, he did it his way. Nice to see that he died a free man. Unfortunately I think this means that Michael will be even more obnoxious in the media. He'll probably come out and say that his dad killed JFK or some such bullshit.

I remember Michael Franzese went through a bizarre phase where he claimed his dad was born in 1919, not 1917, and how he was even able to fool the government about his own age. Michael indicated like Sonny was one-upping the government that way (no clue how). Then, when 2017 rolled around and the 100-year-old Sonny walked out of prison, MIchael never mentioned the age thing again, 'cos it's way better for the headlines if a 100-year-old walks out of prison compared to a 98-year-old.

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:24 pm

Pete wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:10 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

If someone wants to say bias there’s equal bias to Russian gangsters and cartel gangsters. Feds go where the cases are

As they should. The argument then goes to what resources and parameters should be allocated for anti-crime measures and how much, if at all, should civilians have their rights trampled with in the pursuit of order. It's complex and I'm not equipped to answer it. Early history doesn't help me with law. I can offer my opinions on the matter but I'm just another asshole.

1) Anastasia made an excellent point that the Phila. FBI made a deal with the boss to testify against the underboss and wondered if NY would have done the same with Gotti - Gravano. It's bad optics but could be argued that its all done with the aim of disrupting crime. It doesn't make me think badly of the FBI.

2) The FBI using, let's say, Massino's family as leverage by seizing ten million, taking the house, essentially putting his family on the street is still hard for me to feel sympathy for. It was all bought and paid for by organized crime, why should Massino sit in prison with the comfort of knowing that despite it all, his life in crime paid off?

3) I guess these points are kinda one sided, I'm not as skeptical of the FBI as others on here are. I enjoyed Gotti with Assante and Find Me Guilty with Vin Diesel. Both films are laced with anti-FBI bias. The agents are depicted as ugly, unfunny, stuffy, angry and bitter while the wiseguys are honorable, timely, admirable etc. They did the same shit with American Gangster. The NJ Branch of the Sopranos FBI had to have been the most incompetent ever, for god sakes stick McNulty and Bunk on 'em and Tony'd been off the streets by next season.

Pete wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:10 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

If someone wants to say bias there’s equal bias to Russian gangsters and cartel gangsters. Feds go where the cases are

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:52 pm

gohnjotti wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:34 pm

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:15 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:06 pm

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:50 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

I see your point. Def imperfect system. Thought Danny Greene def was but you may know better than me. However fir the record DelVecchio was NEVER charged. Connely was tho

Lindley DeVecchio was charged with aiding-and-abetting murders committed by Greg Scarpa, and he went to trial in the early 2000s. The case was dropped because the main witness, Linda Scarpa, couldn't keep her story straight, and Allie Persico allegedly had meetings with her to fix the case.

I’m Sorry I should have been more specific... I meant in the federal courts. He was a federal agent one would assume he would be charged in their courts. You r right. It was a state case and it was dropped. But he was guilty. IMO

gohnjotti wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:34 pm

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:15 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:06 pm

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:50 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

I see your point. Def imperfect system. Thought Danny Greene def was but you may know better than me. However fir the record DelVecchio was NEVER charged. Connely was tho

Lindley DeVecchio was charged with aiding-and-abetting murders committed by Greg Scarpa, and he went to trial in the early 2000s. The case was dropped because the main witness, Linda Scarpa, couldn't keep her story straight, and Allie Persico allegedly had meetings with her to fix the case.

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:15 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:06 pm

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:50 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

I see your point. Def imperfect system. Thought Danny Greene def was but you may know better than me. However fir the record DelVecchio was NEVER charged. Connely was tho

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:06 pm

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:50 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

1 "Italians" was in reference to the Mafia not the Italian people.
2 Danny Greene as an informant has been speculated upon but never proven.
3 These examples are only valid if we shift the focus onto agents like Connelly and DelVecchio as bad examples. However they were eventually brought to justice as were the Mafia Cops. In fact it would seem hard to dirty an agent, but once that taint is on there, they're prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's an imperfect system but its far better than the alternative.
4 The FBN knew about the Mafia for decades and before the 60's were the FBI's main competitor. That changed when the FBI decided to make organized crime a priority and presenting Valachi as a catalyst which was very much an early form of marketing and a call-to-action. The FBI didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts or because the Mafia became a more serious issue all of a sudden, it was done for political and funding reasons. Even so, the alternative could be far worse.

DMC22 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:50 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.

Whitey Bulger got a free pass to murder and drug deal etc by higher ups ( Brass) in the FBI, with the promise he would inform on the Italians. So... Also Danny Greene in Pittsburgh he also promised to inform on Italians there in return to operate freely with his own criminal activities. Which included bombings , murders and racketeering.

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:56 pm Italians are no longer an ethnic minority in this country. We don't have neighborhoods that speak Italian, have first generation American children and act as conduits to Italy via money, banking, specialized services. After three generations we fall in with the rest of the white population. There are neighboods in NY and still the midwest of pockets of Italian descendants but its demographics rather than a minority enclave. That would be the Chinese or Vietnamese communities. Anyone today targeted by the FBI is because of their involvement with the mafia is due to their involvement, not because any brass decided: "hey, we're gonna target the Italian people." If people want to make the argument that the FBI goes to extreme lengths in the pursuit of convictions, there are examples of that but likening it to any Italian-bias decreases any validity to the argument.